Saft NiCad Batteries

[bapayton]

Hello everyone!

This is my first post so I hope I don't sound to ridiculous. Isn't that a rite of passage on a message board? Anyhow, I have a friend who has given me an out of spec (for the aircraft industry) Saft 4076 NiCd battery and I was going to ask everyone their opinion of it's usefulness. I should be able to obtain more of them in time. What I'm wanting to do is to power a few (maybe 4- 13 watt) CFL's in a cabin and a small TV (for football games) so I can eliminate the lighting and entertainment part of grid connection (gotta stay somewhat grid connected for A/C reasons). Everything else will be propane (water heater and fridge). I planned on connecting them as multiple 12 volt strings and charging with solar panels. Since the cabin won't be used but maybe once a month for a few days what kind of overall battery capacity would I need and how many watts of solar to keep them up during the away times? I'll attempt to attach some pictures but I'm not sure it will work.

Here are some specs from the manufacturer:

Saft 4076 NiCad

 Electrical caracteristics

  Nominal voltage- 24 volts

  Nominal capacity- 36 Ah at 1 hour rate

  Power rating- (12V-15s-23°C/70°F)      

  Recommended constant charging voltage- 28.5 volts

There are 20 individual 1.5v cells connected with bus bars.

Link to Battery Label

Fixed the battery picture so it displayed and linked to the photo of the label. TW

[wpowokal]

Welcome Bapayton,

                  I'm not going to calculate your solar requirements, just to say welcome, grab all the batteries you can and congratulation for surviving on the board this far.

allan down under

[warpsta]

Hi

These batteries are great garb as many as you can, however you have to be nice to them. They must be treated differently to your standard lead acid type battery.

Here is a link for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-cadmium_battery_vented_cell_type

[wdyasq]

I don't understand how you are going to use 28V batteries for 12V devices from your post but, hey - it's your project.

Good find,

Ron

[Jeff]

Pretty sweet deal! Since they are hooked up in series, that must mean they are 1.5 volt, 36Ah each. So...9 of them in series will give you 13.5 volts, and 36Ah. That gives you enough left over to make another string of 9 in series. Hook those two banks of 9 together in paralell, and you should get about 72Ah! That's a good start on powering the lights & TV you mentioned. If those lights and TV are 12v, it would be a big plus, otherwise you'll have to get an inverter to get 110/120v AC. Like others have mentioned on this board, a good "bang for the buck" starter set of solar panels can be had from Harbor Freight for about $200. I try to keep this board posted whenever they have their frequent sales on these panels. They're 45 watt, and even come with 2 CFL's (12v!). Just search the board for 45w, or Harbor Freight, and you'll find several topics on them.

Lucky catch!

[Jeff]

Here's a couple links to the posts on those HF panels I mentioned:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/24/31845/824

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/4/153940/647

[Bruce S]

Talk about being lucky!! How do I bribe you for one of those :-)

Where are you located:-)

Okay, batts.

1.)NiCds ae 1.25 standing voltage not the normal 1.5 like Alkalines and Lead-Acid.

So the best thing to do would be like rualmcguyver said, link up 10 of the 20 in series then hook the 2 sets up in parallel.

This will give you a full 72Ahr of usage.

2. )NiCds, wet or dry can withstand a deeper drain on them than Lead-Acid, so that's also a plus!
   
3. ) NiCds are current lovers and need to be charged using a constant current instead of constant voltage like most chargers will do.
   
4. ) they'll need to be charged in values of 10, i.e. C/10 is a good value to charge them. C=the total amerage of a string so at 36Ah you'll not want to charge these at more than 3.6Ah for the total string C/20 is better.
   
5. ) NiCds like Lead-Acid need to be able to vent, for the same reason, i.e. pressure build up. The lid I see in the back ground is metal and probably okay for previous use, but a plastic one with a bit more room would be better.
   
   

The HF PV is a good starter unit, the newer one much better than the old one.

It's max out put is 45 watts on a good day, which is way low for charging this pack fully.

you could have a pack of more than 900 watts total the HF puts out 45 watts total.

That's about 20% which would be okay for mantaining them but possibly not for a good deep charge. Since you're going to be using these once in a while it might be okay, larger unit would better, along with a NiCd specific charger.

There's a ton of charger circuits on the web if you want to build one, even ones specific for solar use.

IF you have a little more money to spend, it would be good to get a real solar controller than the one that comes with the HF set, I did.

I know this is long ;

Hope it helps

Bruce S

 

[mettleramiel]

In order to tell you how many solar panels you need, we need to know how much power you are going to be using. For a rough, but effective estimate, find the wattage rating of your TV, it will be on the back. Multiply that by how many hours you plan to run the TV. Then multiply the total watts of your lights and multiply that by how many hours you plan on running them. Add these two totals together and you get your total watthours needed per average day.

So, lets say you have a 50w TV and you want to use it for 2 hours.

50w x 2h = 100watth

Then you have 4 12w light bulbs that you run for 3 hours.

4 x 12w x 3h = 144watth

Add them up

100wh + 144wh = 244watthours

Now we need batteries to run all of this. Assuming that everything is 12v we need at least 244 watthours worth every day, but you should always have much more than your daily allowance in order to keep your batteries in good shape.

224watthours / 12v = 18.7ah

Seeing that we need about 19ah, that 75ah battery you have would be an ideal start.

Now, as for the panels. My experience is that when everything is added up, I get roughly 4-5 hours a day of rated wattage of my panels. So,

224 / 5h = 44.8

If you have a good source of sunlight, 50 watts of solar should recharge your battery each day. I would advise you, however, not to get those garbage HF panels. They are cheap because, well, they are cheap. Thin film panels are tempting because of their initial low cost, but deteriorate quickly and my own have rarely ever seen 1/2 their rated wattage.

[Bruce S]

I like your numbers but disagree on the HF panels. I've had mine for well over a year and have not had any problems. The controller on the other hand was only good for the power taps AFTER I fix it.

I disagree that they are garbage, in the winter I've seen more than their ratings.

It is possible you got a bad batch. Another long time poster (NothingToLose) has gotten bad ones and merely had them replaced.

Cheers;

Bruce S

[mettleramiel]

I've never used the HF brand ones myself, but I have used 2 different brands of 15wat amorphorous panels. Motomaster and some other one I can't remember right now. I have 4 panels in total now and both of the brands have given me low power output that has slowly dwindled over the last couple of years. They started out close to rated, about 70-80% which was fine, but droped months later and never recovered.

Maybe the HF ones are of higher quality than this? I was just making a generalization based on my own experience and others who have experienced similar results.

Myself, I just got a 30w crystaline panel and am MUCH happier with my array now.

[Bruce S]

Cool;

 Sorry to hear about those others, gives all of them a bad name , kinda like a a bad sales man:-)

Maybe those others can be used to trickle charge AAs?

The worst part of the HFs was the early controller, it sucked at best and when wooferhound got his it shorted the 3,6,9 volt outputs!! I quickly checked all the ones around the neighbourhood and sure enough other had the same problems. I basically pulled the stuff out and resoldered them, then used the noisy speaker as an ouput for a dump load controller from the famous dozen-aire (Ghurd) :-)

Hope I wasn't too rude:-)

Cheers

Bruce

[joestue]

NiCds love a fast charge. About 1C or half that is good. Read the Wikipedia page about them.

(yes I know this is a storage application and that's impossible)

[Jeff]

I forgot about those NiCad's being closer to 1.25volts, so the bank you'd want to set up would need to be 11 of those in series (13.75 volts). I say this because most controllers, and 12v systems for that matter, are made to charge at 13.5-14.4volts.

As far as solar panels, amorphorous panels will probably never compare to poly-, or mono crystaline panels. I mentioned the HF ones for "starter" purposes, they matched almost exactly wattage-wise the charging you'd need for what you have, and I'm familiar with them (have a set). I've had them about 17 months now & no problems (except the crappy controller). In fact, I'm very close to getting them on a new "tower" on a semi-automatic 2-axis tracking mount! Hopefully within a week if everything goes right. Wish I had a working camera to post pics, but that "fix-it" job is way down on the to-do list!

[Bruce S]

fast Charge! not totaly correct.

They CAN take a fast charge, but you wouldn't want to do that very often. When done this way they get HOT! real HOT! , this would lead to venting and unlike Lead-Acid you can't just add acid back in.

I had at one time a picture on sub-c's that were charged and I forgot to put the temp sensor on them to shut down if they overheated, wasn't pretty.. If its not there I can put it backup.

building with a C10 or even better C20 charge would give the longest use of these and then once in a while hit them with a C1 just to wake up the wiskers :-)

Wikpedia is very good at giving a global overview, but would be best to find an manufacturer and ask for specifics.

Still waiting to hear what Bribe is needed to get one of these:-<>..

Cheers

Bruce S

 

[joestue]

The Devil is in the details man!

You should never charge a sub C or D battery that hard because you can't add water.

Correct me if i'm wrong, most of the heat is from the recombination of the O2 and H2 during the charge, since the amount of reconbination is the same whether you charge it fast or slow, (within reason, the increased voltage due to cell resistance will increase gasification), the small chargers just assume that if you keep the temperature down, then the internal cell pressure can't be high enough to vent the cell. With vented cell types, there is an order of magnitude less recombination.

Also, the battery should cool upon charging, until it hits end of charge and the oxygen is consumed in the catalyst.

This is not necessarily the case for all batteries, the internal resistance varies considerably between manufacturers, for instance, some Nicds can discharge 50C, others are rated only 10C or less.

http://www.mpoweruk.com/nicad.htm

www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2005/MeisnerPaper2005.pdf

BTW Nimh chemistry is 66% chemically efficient on charge, and Nicd is ~55% on a 16 hour charge, and ~80% on a fast, ~2 hour charge. Both of which lead acid can beat.

[Bruce S]

Joe;

 I like your numbers. The C/10 or C/20 would give a good long term charge for what he's wanting to do.

Lead Acid batts are good. My main reason for sticking with NiCds are that they can be drained down to having only 20% of their total charge left and be able to recover without a noticeable damage. In fact , they work better when used in this fashion.

When building or designing for NiCds the best way would be to use the negative slope method. NiMh have this slope too, but not as easy to detect.

Cheers

Bruce S

[joestue]

I forgot about the 80% discharge part, thanks for catching that.

If you only discharge the first 40%, I bet you could get the efficiency up.

This doesn't apply to NIMH though, speaking of which why do they put these in hybrids?

they should use NiCds.

[Bruce S]

joestue

The main reason for them using the NiMh is the chemistry. They are way less dangerous. Cadnimum is a very bad thing, and MUST always be handled like the poison it is. Worse than lead paint!!

NiMh also loose their standing charge slower than NiCds do.

But possibly the more important reason is that they only last about 500 cycles before they start wearing out :-)

Lithimum is coming along just fine, once those have been around a bunch more years, they'll be better in the long run.

Price is what keeps them out of my reach.

Cheers

Bruce S

[independent]

10 standard nicads to make a 12v pack. 20 to make 24v although some use 19 in that case because of the high charged voltage. Goes over 15.3v, which I believe is the standard cutoff for inverters (inverters will shutdown above this voltage), when full for 10 pack in series.

There are ghurd's controllers if you need a fine grain approach to charge control (adjustable dump load controllers). Also, the better quality charge controllers have a charge cutoff which is variable. I would be hesitant using a charge controller which isn't made (or modified) for use with nicads. An adjustable constant current constant voltage power supply, used for electronics, would be better than a cheapie lead acid charger. If you had one of these, not only could charge them in a pack, but you could test each cell individually with controlled charges and discharges (using a large resistor) and match the similar capacity ones in strings (if you were doing 12v)

Those cells look alot like the bb600 spec ones EV people are using in their cars. There's even a yahoo group dedicated to them..

On the fieldlines (this) site is maybe some of the best info on wet cell nicads (on the whole web) if you want to search you will find the good stuff. Maybe search using google instead of the in built search function as it works better. Some of the info posted above is not very accurate to the care and attention these cells deserve. As looked after they should last a long time. Just don't keep them in the same company as PbA batteries!

[Frank S]

The Saft batteries were mentioned on another thread and I got to thinking this might be a good time torevisit this thread THis is a compact eslf contained system ready for inverter tie in
 I think it even has its own BMM
 One thing I particularly like is the operating temp range and humidity range
http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_High_energy_lithium_ion_module_for_electricity_consumption_applications_468_308/Language/en-US/Default.aspx#DL2
 
http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/aviation/Cube946/Com_cabinet48V_en_0712_Protected.e08f42d1-2092-4c6d-a186-5faa29c3d359.pdf

[Frank S]

For a look at their wider range of systems listed below

http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/aviation/Cube945/ESS%20_capa_%20en-0412-Protege.b8ed5f1c-ace7-46e5-bd4f-cf7dd785e0cc.pdf

[BillBlake]

The Saft batteries were mentioned on another thread and I got to thinking this might be a good time torevisit this thread THis is a compact eslf contained system ready for inverter tie in
 I think it even has its own BMM
 One thing I particularly like is the operating temp range and humidity range
http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_High_energy_lithium_ion_module_for_electricity_consumption_applications_468_308/Language/en-US/Default.aspx#DL2
 
http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/aviation/Cube946/Com_cabinet48V_en_0712_Protected.e08f42d1-2092-4c6d-a186-5faa29c3d359.pdf

Frank, Are you staying with a Ni-Cd theme or swinging into 'Lithium Land'.
Saft has some really cool stuff but I wonder how many 'Home Power' types can afford any of it.

As with todays Nickel Iron Batteries it's 'Changhong and The Electric Indian'

Changhongbatteries(DOT)com that has the hot set-up in Ni-Cd batteries geared towards your
average Joe. They also have some extra fancy Ni-Cd Cells if your money is Long enough.

Not much has changed in way over 100 years. The sly devils are using Graphite with the
Nickel in their Pocket Type Nickel Cadmium batteries like Mr. Edison started out liking so much
in his Ni-Cd AND his Ni-Fe batteries until he found it dissolving into the alkaline electrolyte too fast.
This was Early in the Edison game before he closed the battery plant down in 1904 to tighten
the act up for over 4 years.

EVERYTHING seems to dissolve in that Alkaline Electrolyte sooner or later
which was always AND still is the real 900 Gorilla hiding behind the 'carbonate issues'.

For a Nickel I will tell you ;-)
Certainly the Chinese know so they never claim as many Life Cycles out of the Pocket Ni-Cd
as they do the Pocket Ni-Fe with NO Graphite. As I said they have a number of other Ni-Cd
technologies depending on 'How deep is your Love $' besides the Pocket Type.

Evidently Changhong is trading off extra years for cheaper efficiency.
Edison would not have picked the Graphite as a first round draft pick material if it hadn't initially worked so well and been cheap. Edison made no secret of loving cheap now.
He loved that Tin to death but if it was a few pennies more than some other metal that would
get by he would cut it. And he was honest about it.

Edison also adored his Mercury and ALL Edison (GREEN) he he he, Ni-Fe Batteries have Mercury
in them.
The carnival barker Ni-Fe salesman and Fairy Tale boys seem to have missed that part of
the education however they can always confront old Bill for some fun :-)

In todays world if anyone is still slipping some Mercury in they are probably keeping it quiet.

There is always a lot more to know but I think the key point for young people to keep in mind is that in over a century extremely few subjects have ever been exposed to the run of misinformation,
lies and con artists as the Nickel based Storage Battery business. Otherwise a real business
would have jumped into it Many years ago. There are plenty of them out there doing lots of millions. Changhong will sell to you, me or anybody with the green batteries if you know how to
do the Importation paperwork. I have it in writing.

Bill Blake

[Frank S]

 Bill there are upsides and down sides to any battery, one thing the smart boys will one day figure out is that there is a metal substance on this planet which will take them back 10 centuries in producing electrical storage.
 the metal is almost impervious to corrosion very slow reacting with most chemicals but at the same time just happens to be one of the highest conducting metals known.
  Legends and  folk lore have been handed down for 1000s of years about the magical properties of this shiny yellow colored metal..
Currently it has no other value than to be pretty  or used in electronic circuits in  stupid gadgets like music boxes.
 I am thinking that gold could be the 1000 year battery material if only someone were brash enough to use it.

[ChrisOlson]

These batteries in this thread are evidently the same type being used for backup power for the city of Fairbanks, Alaska.  What is the cost of these and where is a good place to buy them?  Compared to lead-acid, if they have twice the life but don't cost twice as much it might be one of those deals where you spend a lot up front to save money in the long run.
--
Chris

[Frank S]

Yes Chris I would suspect they are the same
here is the Saft HQ page http://www.saftbatteries.com/
Maybe some digging will turn up some pricing

[BillBlake]

Based on what China is getting I'm guessing that Saft Ni-Cd would have to be at least
5 to 6 times what something like the Rolls 5000 Series Batteries will run - Net / Delivered.

The shipping charges (even after arriving in the USA) can be a huge rip-off if your not careful.
How about around $5500 for a few pallets to go around 200 miles?

For a Nickel I will tell you wild and true stories about various Nickel Battery Dealers. 
And Love doing it.

Watch Yourself !!

Bill Blake

[BillBlake]

 Bill there are upsides and down sides to any battery, one thing the smart boys will one day figure out is that there is a metal substance on this planet which will take them back 10 centuries in producing electrical storage.
 the metal is almost impervious to corrosion very slow reacting with most chemicals but at the same time just happens to be one of the highest conducting metals known.
  Legends and  folk lore have been handed down for 1000s of years about the magical properties of this shiny yellow colored metal..
Currently it has no other value than to be pretty  or used in electronic circuits in  stupid gadgets like music boxes.
 I am thinking that gold could be the 1000 year battery material if only someone were brash enough to use it.

Is it the 50th post or the 51st post that I can list a link?
Of coarse I need to be careful.
I would hate to

'Drop the Dime' on some Mug

every once in a while - inadvertently because of a Link. 

Bill Blake

[dbcollen]

Bill,

You are still at 48 posts as of right now, it is in the upper left corner, under your username.
Only a few more 

[BillBlake]

Bill,

You are still at 48 posts as of right now, it is in the upper left corner, under your username.
Only a few more 

Thanks db,

But is it at 50 or 51 Posts for the Links?

It took a good while because I didn't do many 'sound bite' short, cute, cunnin posts.
How do I speed it up db? :-)

The Nickel Iron Battery Dealers

John Mario D'Angelo and Brandon & Maggie Williams

are waiting on me to be able to put up a Link or two.

Every few months someone sends me some interesting email based on what's going on behind the scenes
in the Nickel Iron Battery Sales world, with nothing but con artists scared to death of old Bill, running the whole
Ni-Fe Battery distribution show. That funny spread of Posts called 'Lets Have A Discussion About Nickel Iron Batteries'
in the Survival Monkey Forum yielded some good email since I don't make up new names all over the place.

John Mario D'Angelo from Beutilityfree, Brandon Williams from Iron Edison Batteries and old Bill from

the school of hard knocks were all in that short but sweet encounter - all at the same time

It can be very healthy and amusing if not interesting to some people. They claim that Laughter is great medicine.
Other than people getting taken for big money with dreams and nonsense the whole deal is hilarious to some.
Diamond John said "it is very entertaining to people" in an email that was forwarded to me.
I have always said and always will say that I kind of 1/2 like a good criminal con man.
I don't take it personal because I do my homework and don't let them get me.

We never fully got to some of the most interesting points about where Ni-Fe Technology is Now, has been in the Past
and most importantly where it can easily go to in the immediate Future.
Simply, reliably and economically with a few modifications.
It will be a slow and easy process.
Had I been 20 or 25 years younger we would have had the needed tests to prove a few things and a new Ni-Fe battery
line-up with new realistic maintenance rules on the market months ago.
Three years or less and it would 'take off'.
Greater than it Ever has been in Storage Batteries for 'Harry and Wanita Off Grid.'
Not so much in sales numbers - but in results over time.

I'm waiting for a young, straight, aggressive reliable player (or players) to jump in.
There has to be someone putting a good scheming on Ni-Fe as we speak.
It Does NOT have to be set-up, built and promoted as a Con Job technology.

old and meek, Bill Blake

[dbcollen]

Bill, I would imagine you are good for links on your next (50th) post, I don't imagine the mods are pedantic enough to require 51. Thanks for being patient, the rules are there for a reason.

Dustin

[BillBlake]

Bill, I would imagine you are good for links on your next (50th) post, I don't imagine the mods are pedantic enough to require 51. Thanks for being patient, the rules are there for a reason.

Dustin

Thanks Dustin. I had to look 'pedantic' up in da dictionary 
Post Number 51 will be fast enough because I'm not ready to put the time in today - anyway.
Bruce and the other 'mods' as you call them have been very good to me and I appreciate it.

Using 'in my own words'

'Diamond John' has accused me of several things that have been fun.

One is being a Master of the third party. Two as being a Dean of reverse sales phychology.
Three as an Architect of 'the reverse sweetboy routine' where in his mind I set the whole
Links thing up on purpose to avoid having to do them.

For instance the Legendary 'isoutar' jumped right into Links but was not fool enough to ask.
I think Diamond John 'overthinks' my simple old existence but it remains a lot of fun.

There are times that I go to bed laughing and wake up laughing. Can't help it. 

It has been a long running big fat Ni-Fe con and his protégé the  'Former Sales Manager'

as one of the most notable characters of

'Beutilityfree Rip-off Reports'

and

'John D'Angelo and Brandon Williams'  Fame has also had plenty to say off the public Internet.

Brandon has Maggie Williams now reeling them in by the many tens of thousands of
mistaken, going to hurt, dollars. Naturally it was sent to me in writing.

OK, here's just one for the Gipper for my Golden Anniversary:

'Complaint Review: BEUTILITYFREE John D'Angelo'

http://www.ripoffreport.com/builders-contractors/beutilityfree-john-d/beutilityfree-john-d-angelo-of-f52bd.htm

Brandon seems to have the Con down even better than the Master - almost from the jump.

Based on the photo's and movies getting put on the Internet lately a lot of people are buying
into the flagrant Ni-Fe Battery Lies in the face of ALL Changhong Batteries (the builders)
evidence, charts and attempts to protect Americans .

We certainly did what little that we could here to try to help storage battery customers.

Bill Blake