Author Topic: Flywheel batteries  (Read 4888 times)

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NukeManSoon

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Flywheel batteries
« on: March 11, 2005, 01:13:27 AM »
Has anyone seen this setup in use? I was wondering if it is worth the money and effort. I have heard of a few different types of flywheel batteries, but is the technology really there to hold the piece together? thanks
« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 01:13:27 AM by (unknown) »

Big All

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2005, 06:26:57 PM »
The only place I've seen a flywheel being used as a battery (actually more like a capacitor) was on a massive old sheetmetal break.

After the power was cut it took about 10min before it slowed down enough to notice a difference, thats when you could hear the lumpiness of the poor old bearings.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 06:26:57 PM by Big All »

healerenergy

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2005, 08:52:55 PM »
NASA is developing one with magnetic bearings that will do 100,000 rpm for satelites.  Saw it some time ago on the net or in a magazine it looked cool.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 08:52:55 PM by healerenergy »

jomoco

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2005, 09:07:23 PM »
 Hey there Nuke man,


Flywheel batteries have made tremendous progress in the last five years, magnetic bearings and a much better understanding of optimal configuration and vertical hang design have yielded incredible results.


One of the companies leading the way is called RPM, and it's well worth your time if you're interested in Flywheel Batteries to check them out at http://rpm2.8k.com/basics.htm


Their latest stuff is truly amazing!


 jomoco

« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 09:07:23 PM by jomoco »

arc

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2005, 09:16:16 PM »
May have potential, but I think it's uses are very limited.

From what I've read, aside from being quite expensive, they may work well as a UPS during brown-outs or very short duration black-outs, but are not well suited for extended periods.

I suppose that with large enough mass and high enough speeds they might work under some conditions but I think I'll not hold my breath waiting to see them become widely used.


The concept is virtually sound, but I think there is a lot of hype out there on this one, IMHO it's not the answer to all our energy problems as, it would seem, that some websites seem to trying to convey. I see it possibly being used in conjunction with other backup systems, maybe as a means of helping during the transition phase of auxiliary power kicking in, or as a means of smoothing out the bumps "so to speak".


It seems that NASA is at least somewhat interested and it may find some uses in the International Space Station, but I sure as heck am not buying any stock it it yet.


arc

« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 09:16:16 PM by arc »

NukeManSoon

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2005, 06:31:48 PM »
I have seen the rpm website and it seems kind of shady to me.  If I heard proof that they work then I would dig deeper.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 06:31:48 PM by NukeManSoon »

artworks

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2005, 07:35:57 PM »
Check out cat.com

Select Product

Power Generation Systems

UPS

After the UPS check out the Fuel Cell stuff

Art
« Last Edit: March 11, 2005, 07:35:57 PM by artworks »

DanB

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2005, 04:09:45 PM »
These guys are serious... and it makes me think it may not be too far down the road,

http://www.beaconpower.com/index.htm

I think the company is struggling, at this time they have only 1 product for sale, which is quite a nice grid tie, sine wave inverter/power managment system.  But it seems a bit part of their focus is on flywheel energy storage systems.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 04:09:45 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

jomoco

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2005, 06:06:48 PM »
 I am somewhat disheartened when people poo poo an upcoming and exciting new technology development, and it makes me think of what men like Thomas Edison and Al Bell had to put up with for many years before their innovations gained a grudging approval from their contemporaries of that time in our history.


Today the task is even more daunting considering present corporate domination of the energy market. Common sense and engineering acumen are factors ignored at our own peril. If anyone with a modicum of common sense or engineering ability, feels that oil, coal or nuclear power are a sustainable heritage to pass on to our children, then they better find a cure for cancer and toxic poisoning while they dream away along their destructive and suicidal path of short term greed.


I myself salute all these brave companies for doing something , anything to change the status quo.


Flywheel batteries hold great promise and deserve to be taken seriously!


jomoco

« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 06:06:48 PM by jomoco »

TomW

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2005, 07:23:46 PM »
jomoco;


I didnt see anyone "poopo ing" this idea.


fantastic claims require fantastic proof.


I just think the users here are quite savvy folks in general and you cant sell many of us a pig in a poke. I, personally, have been a fan of many "underdog" technologies like the VAWT, flywheel storage and other fairly unorthodox things but that does not mean I jump on the bandwagon and support those who patent and lock up technology.


We see lots of fantastic claims flow thru this site.


After you've been participating here a bit more you may understand the scepticism of the regulars. Not many forums out there disseminating anything like the rock solid and freely shared information that this site does.


I only speak for myself as a user but hopefully you can see the point.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 07:23:46 PM by TomW »

ghurd

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2005, 10:06:20 PM »
Not Poo Pooing but

How fast does a ton of steel need to be rotating to put out 5,000 watts for 1 hour?

Figure a diameter that would fit in a reasonable space.

Figure a failure where a 1kg=2.2lb piece broke off...

If the 1kg piece went the opposite direction, then figure what is left.

Or figure a bearing fails setting the balance 0.250" off center.

Would you want it in your house, and under or in the next room from your bed?

That is all I can think about.

G-
« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 10:06:20 PM by ghurd »
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jomoco

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2005, 10:53:03 PM »
Hi Tom,


You've been kind enough to point out your disdain for intellectual property holders to me on several occasions now, and you may have your reasons for doing so. This post however is on the merits or lack of merit for flywheel batteries. I certainly am no expert on the technology, but from what I and engineers much smarter than I have gathered on the subject, it has a host of advantages over even todays acid batteries, non-toxicity and lighter weight as well as low or no maintenance to name just a few. There are always safety concerns with a heavy weight spinning at ultra high rpm , but these issues have been addressed in many common sense ways such as having the unit underground in a steel and concrete containment room. It is my understanding that these systems exist and are ready for commercial applications now.


I am sure that like any new technology it will improve over time as more is learned.


As to your curious views on patent holders, I suggest we discuss that via e-mail if you're willing?


jomoco@direcway.com

« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 10:53:03 PM by jomoco »

TomW

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2005, 11:38:07 PM »
jomoco;


I have my preferred contact method in my .sig here and thanks but no thanks on email discussion.


Your very first story was you being all excited and bragging up your patent. I feel it is an unfair system that assumes 2 people cannot solve a problem the same way in complete isolation from one another and unfairly rewards the one who runs to the patent office first. Nothing you can say will change that so discussing it is a moot point.


Information wants to be free. I believe this strongly. Patenting and restricting information is counterproductive to that goal and I cannot support it. I guess this makes 3 times I "hacked" on you about patents in some way.


No problem there, we can agree to disagree on intellectual property.


I still don't see where anyone "poopoo ed" this idea as I stated previously which was my main point.


We have discussed magnetic bearings, flywheel storage, Pure EMF power transfer and lots of other unusual  stuff over on IRC. Stop in some time and if the timings right it gets pretty interesting occasionally. We have some pretty sharp folks over there and a couple old grumps, too.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 11:38:07 PM by TomW »

jomoco

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2005, 12:23:54 PM »
Well Tom, I'm beginning to see where your coming from, I also suspect you have a few misconceptions about patent law. Any private individual is free to copy or manufacture patented inventions for their own private use. It is only when they try and sell or profit monetarily from these patents, that they run afoul of patent law.


So in effect any private citizen can make his own, flywheel battery, treeslave or any other patented item, as long as it's for their own private use. Now you may consider that a lock up of useful technology...... I guess.


Modern patents are only valid for 16-18 years after which it's open season for every body, private or commercial for profit. This relatively small window allows inventors to benefit from their creative abilities for a short while, after which their efforts are a free gift to the world at large.


History is replete with people who spent their whole lives developing useful ideas that are today taken for granted. Harvey Firestone...etc. Many of these people tragicly died before their inventions gained acceptance.


America has been the worlds leader in innovations throughout our history as a nation, and I fail to see any rational reason to do away with a system that has achieved such stunning progress.


jomoco

« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 12:23:54 PM by jomoco »

wooferhound

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2005, 04:08:56 PM »
I was wondering what it would sound like. The website above has flywheel batteries but the only mention short term use and using them in situations where a battery wouldnt survive.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 04:08:56 PM by wooferhound »

Psycogeek

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2005, 05:38:50 PM »
the big ones run in a vaccume (or partial vaccume), so the majority of the friction does not exist

sound does not travel when there are no particles to push around, so most of the sound should be reduced.


most of what i saw, was for high-power short term.

and as long as it takes bearing, even magnetic bearings, there is going to be friction reductions.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 05:38:50 PM by Psycogeek »

Kwazai

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2005, 06:58:43 AM »
If you will do a search on "threshing machine motor" and what some people call "thumper motors" they used a flywheel and diesel engine for a lot of farm chores. I talked with a guy about the one his father had and he said the tractor would run all day on about a pint jar full of kerosene. about every 30 seconds the motor would hit another lick and spin the flywheel up and the tractor would keep going, and going and going. I had seen some closeup (small ones) at a threshers reunion- strange way to run a sawmill. The motor would hit every 15 seconds or so while it was in operation and about every minute or so when coasting. The early steam tractors used this type of motor-vation(sic)..

Current research from what I understand is that there is more power available (stored energy) in very lightweight very high rpm versions rather than heavy and slow, problem being that at too high an rpm they explode.

anyway my .02$

Mike
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 06:58:43 AM by Kwazai »

finnsawyer

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2005, 09:21:43 AM »
When I was working at Allen Bradly an outfit nearby spun up a gear to 25,000 rpm.  One piece flew a quarter mile.  Fortunately no one was hurt (except for the roof).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 09:21:43 AM by finnsawyer »

kitno455

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2005, 07:52:50 PM »
"hit-and-miss engine" will get you far more results on google. i have played a bit with several brands, sizes. the flywheel is a requirement for these motors, just like on a b&s single. it keeps them running, and it makes hand starting easier than a bar on the crank snout, but they are not smooth. old-engine.com and the folks at utterpower.com have some decent pictures.


i have heard of such systems being used not as an ups, but to drive a genset for use with older military equipment that required very exacting voltages from local (non-us) power sources. the local power spun up the flywheel (over a period of hours) and the radios were run from an attached genset. during local brown-outs, or higher system loads, the flywheel evened things out. a relay system on the local side probably prevented backfeeding.


allan

« Last Edit: March 26, 2005, 07:52:50 PM by kitno455 »

MountainMan

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2005, 10:26:20 AM »
Regarding safety issues with flywheels, I notice that some manufacturers install their flywheels below ground to solve this.  A simple and elegant solution.  Verticle axis spinning in a hole.  I guess the hope is that ALL of the parts would fly sideways into the ground.  I think I would still want a two or three inch thick manhole cover over top of it though.


I'm wondering if anybody here has experimented with really high mass and more reasonable rotational speeds for storing wind and solar energy.  I'm thinking in terms of hundreds of pounds (or tons) of cement rotating at one or two thousand rpm instead of 50 pounds of stuff rotating at 20,000 rpm.  I know the energy storage is only linear with mass, and goes up as the square of speed.  Perhaps this is one place where it makes sense to limit the advantages of "the power of squaring" in order to make a more practical homebrew solution.  


Just thinking out loud here...Maybe fill a 4 foot long section of that concrete form tube 18" or 24" in diameter with fiber reinforced concrete and  welded together rebar.  Maybe come up with a simple way of post-tensioning it or wrapping it with something that has more strength, like a few hundred feet of braided steel cable.


Then you dig an 8 foot deep hole and put a heavy duty bearing on a concrete pad at the bottom of the hole.  Hoist your concrete drum down into the hole and set up a top bearing and alternator/motor on the top.  Then cover it up with dirt and park your spare tank M-1 tank on top of it.


Then you do a destructive test to see how much it can take.  Then you dig new hole and start over, and limit the speed to something significantly below the empirical limit.


Anybody out there know the math and the unit constants to turn this into a simple "kilowatt-hour" per rpm per ton?  I don't know which box my college physics book is in.


BTW, I'm new here.  

Hope this sort of blue-skying is well received around here.  If not, I refuse to appologise. :)

« Last Edit: June 27, 2005, 10:26:20 AM by MountainMan »

commanda

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2005, 02:49:34 PM »
The people at Volvo know the answer to this question. They abandoned flywheel research after one of their employees was killed by an exploding flywheel. It went straight through the concrete & steel containment.


Amanda

« Last Edit: June 27, 2005, 02:49:34 PM by commanda »

squist

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2005, 11:53:17 AM »
I used to work for a composites company that built composite flywheel components for the university of Texas center for electromechnics.  (check out their web site) One of my projects was the nasa flywheel battery.  To address saftey, there does need to be some containment, however, when using composites if a part of the flywheel detatches the kinetic energy in the light weight composite can be contained much easier than a chunk of steel.  


As for energy storage, the weight to strength ratio is much higher for composites than steel.  If you use the energy formula E=1/2(I)(W^2) higher speeds have more influence on the stored energy than the rotational moment of inertia.  The hoop stress is calculated by stress=((1+poisons ratio)/2)(density^2)(angular velocity^2)*(radius^2).  The stress equation equally weights the density and the velocity, which means designs optimize by using straonger lighter materieals.  This gets more complicated with composites, but it still shows what is possible.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 11:53:17 AM by squist »

nimble

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Re: Flywheel batteries
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2006, 10:33:46 PM »
Some trains used to be powered by flywheels, they go to the station, get spun-up, then traverse to the next station by the flywheel power, where they are spun-up again.


It is a dangerous business.  The damage that could be done by a large fast flywheel gone bad is quite scary.  If I recall Beacon Power suggest they are best buried underground, so only a mild earthquake would occur...


For that matter, consider the effects of a damn breaking..quite catastrophic.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 10:33:46 PM by nimble »