Author Topic: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.  (Read 5403 times)

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doceanboy

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A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« on: June 28, 2005, 09:26:35 PM »
Wanted to pass this article along to you because it appears to be a well

balanced and well presented summary of the present state of H2 development as a

fuel..


There are those who think H2 will never become the fuel of tomorrow and they

have some compelling arguments. Breakthroughs in technology could remove many

of the blocks which currently exist. In other words I think there is hope for

this clean nonpoluting fuel. Whether our transportation is fueled by it or

just our electronics remains to be seen.


In any case the article it is a very good read - I have yet to finish it.


I would be glad to discuss any thoughts that might arise out of it...... Dave


http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/p39.html

« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 09:26:35 PM by (unknown) »

terry5732

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2005, 03:52:49 PM »
On this planet ( Earth) hydrogen is NOT a fuel. It is simply a storage medium.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 03:52:49 PM by terry5732 »

jomoco

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2005, 04:33:31 PM »
An excellent article Dave,


Particularly the section on a plants ability to split water at ambient temperatures with solar power ( photosynthesis ) if we can somehow mimic that process artificially to produce H2 in large quantities, it would be a huge step forward.


Thanks for sharing such an interesting and hopeful article, and I agree it was well written and balanced.


jomoco

« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 04:33:31 PM by jomoco »

Jessum Dumguy

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2005, 08:55:16 PM »
Actually Hydrogen is a fuel, On Earth.

If they ever shoot the space shuttle off again,

Take notice of the three sparky parts on the

back of the shuttle vehicle.

Hydrogen fuel with oxygen oxidizer.


:-)

« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 08:55:16 PM by Jessum Dumguy »

pyrocasto

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2005, 10:31:21 PM »
Then you would have to say the same thing about propane, gas, ect...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2005, 10:31:21 PM by pyrocasto »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2005, 02:30:28 AM »


It raises some of the problems with a "hydrogen economy", in particular the problems of energy density; and fuel cells that use expensive (platinum) or very poisonous (perfluorosulfonic acid) reagents.


It doesn't mention the problems of storage and transportation, which seems like an oversight.  Electricity is much easier to transport than hydrogen: the most efficient way to transport energy would probably be for the hydrogen to be created at the filling station, using electricity.


The battery volumetric and gravimetric figures (figure 3) are not realistic: to put them in the same scale, the hydrogen figures would have to include the volume and weight of the fuel cells (and the petrol figures would have to include the engine and gearbox).  A fuel cell is nothing more than a battery that can be chemically recharged.


Given the poor power performance of hydrogen fuel cells, a hydrogen car can best be thought of as an EV with a fuel tank added.  Sure the fuel tank gives extra range, and enables rapid recharging, but it doesn't get over the problems of weight or volume.  Very few electrochemical systems give a better specific power than lead-acid cells; and hydrogen fuel cells don't even give as good performance as lithium ion.  Getting a hydrogen car to beat anything off the lights is a challenge.


It also doesn't mention that the energy density problems of hydrogen are essentially "law of physics" type limitations.  Once you realise that they are unlikely to ever be solved, you can see how futile the notion of hydrogen vehicles is.


It's a well written article, and mostly it covers the essentials accurately, but a little careful reading is needed to see that the optimistic tone is entirely unjustified.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 02:30:28 AM by thunderhead »

Bruce S

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2005, 08:53:25 AM »
I would like to disagree with some of your comments.


While it is true the site does go a bit too far in making some of it's claims.

I can say that using the law of physics for limitations is untrue as well.

There are a number of vehicles around the Colmubia, Mo area that can say that they are not having any problems with power/torque/ speed; and they've had atleast one vehicle doing this for more than 10 years.

I tend to look at anything that can help us get away for petrol as a main line fuel as a possibility worth looking at.

Hydrogen is a very well known fuel and storage medium. Think Zeplins, while not entirely safe worked. Using metals as a battery if you will for storage of the H2 is already happening, the guy who invented the procedure was on "Sunday Morning" who drives his vehicle everywhere. It's not some hacked up 2 seater, it has all the normal gas guzzling addons.

As far as Lead-acid units go NiCds and NiMHs have more than twice the energy density per kilo than even AGM or even SLAs can come close to.

I will agree with you about the fact that electricity is much easier to transport and the H2 but I wouldn't shut H2 out of the picture.


Bruce S

« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 08:53:25 AM by Bruce S »
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terry5732

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2005, 06:58:23 PM »
Hydrogen is no more a fuel than a lead acid battery is. You need to free the hydrogen from somewhere which requires power. More power than you get from burning it, unless you take it from methane, in which case you get less power than burning the methane!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 06:58:23 PM by terry5732 »

pyrocasto

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2005, 07:27:25 PM »
Same as anything. You have to extract all our fuels for somewhere.


BTW, a battery stores electricity. Electricity is the fuel. Hydrogen is the fuel.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 07:27:25 PM by pyrocasto »

Jessum Dumguy

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2005, 11:46:03 PM »
As far as having to extract Hydrogen and that making it NOT a fuel,

Petrolium (gas, diesel, ect) is extracted from Crude oil,

Is gasoline not a fuel?

Bio Diesel extracted from Beans, Grains, ect,

Not a Fuel?    It's just a different method of

getting something transportable that drives an engine.

    As pyrocasto said, It's all extracted from a raw form....

Wood, Coal, Natural Gas used in a steam engine being the

possible exception,  Even there It could be argued that

the real fuel is the Pressurized Steam extracted from

liquid water by heating VIA Wood, Coal, or Natural Gas.  

Extraction on the go.


.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 11:46:03 PM by Jessum Dumguy »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2005, 01:59:27 AM »
I would like to disagree with some of your comments.


Sure, go ahead. Where would be the fun if we all agreed on everything? ;-)


I can say that using the law of physics for limitations is untrue as well.


For the limitations of energy storage, I think it's true.  Hydrogen is liquid at near absolute zero.  At absolute zero the molecules in a substance are still, which means that there are no significant spaces between them, and they occupy the space taken up by their size.  Liquid hydrogen is virtually incompressible, like any liquid.  Although metallic hydrogen may be marginally more dense than liquid hydrogen, it's not going to be much more.  It's also a very esoteric material, not really suitable for putting in cars.  It is unlikely that hydrogen can exist in any state, adsorbed or otherwise, that much exceeds the density of the liquid form.


There are a number of vehicles around the Colmubia, Mo area that can say that they are not having any problems with power/torque/ speed; and they've had atleast one vehicle doing this for more than 10 years.


And we have hydrogen fuel-cell buses here in London.  But they are not ground rockets.  They certainly won't outperform an equivalent EV, and I don't believe we will ever see a situation where these will outperform all petrol vehicles.


I tend to look at anything that can help us get away for petrol as a main line fuel as a possibility worth looking at.


I don't.  Just because petrol is a bad fuel doesn't mean all other fuels are better.  You could build a car powered by plutonium, but you wouldn't want to share a town with one.  Hydrogen is environmentally benign, but it is dangerous for the occupants of the car and for passers-by.


Using metals as a battery if you will for storage of the H2 is already happening, the guy who invented the procedure was on "Sunday Morning" who drives his vehicle everywhere. It's not some hacked up 2 seater, it has all the normal gas guzzling addons.


I've never seen "Sunday Morning", but I'm aware of adsorbtion systems for storing hydrogen.  The hydrogen is under pressure, which means it will tend to leak.  Nothing leaks like hydrogen, because it is the smallest, lightest molecule in the Universe.  Hydrogen will leak through solid steel.  The hydrogen leaked from this man's car may be small enough to be no big hazard (although if you read about him dying in an inferno, I'll take that back) but imagine a whole underground car-park full of the things.  Then imagine some office worker sneaking down there for a crafty cigarette.


As far as Lead-acid units go NiCds and NiMHs have more than twice the energy density per kilo than even AGM or even SLAs can come close to.


Agreed.  But I wasn't talking about energy density, I was talking about specific power.  A single well-charged lead acid battery weighing 25kg will deliver maybe 10kW for a short time (assume 1000A at 10V).  You wouldn't get that kind of power-to-weight ratio out of the petrol engine in most street cars.


Yes, these problems can be solved with things like ultracapacitors, but ultracapacitors also work for EVs.


I will agree with you about the fact that electricity is much easier to transport and the H2 but I wouldn't shut H2 out of the picture.


But I would.  There are no worthwhile advantages that fuel-cell hydrogen cars have over EVs.  For hydrogen, the infrastructure is more dangerous and more expensive, the range is no better, the technology is more expensive both to make and to recycle, and the total energy used is higher.


The only advantage to hydrogen is for people that are selling hydrogen.  And, since hydrogen is made from petrochemical gases, the people that are benefiting from this are our old friends the oil companies.


Their worst nightmare is for us to get the power for our cars from the same place we power our homes.  Hydrogen cars is how they prevent that.


Don't believe their hype!

« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 01:59:27 AM by thunderhead »

BeenzMeenzWind

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2005, 09:13:23 AM »
Interesting article. Enjoyable read.


I have to agree with thunderhead, though. There is nothing that a H2 vehicle can do that can't be duplicated or bettered by good old elastic-trickery, though I'm sure the oil companies would love to disagree.


I always used to think that maybe hydrogen would be the way to go for sports cars, as it sounded easier to get the buggers to go fast with a fuel burning engine. I've since seen a documentary about an EV somewhere is the US (i forget where) that would top 200 mph. Naturally the range was a bit pants at that speed but go drive your Ferrari Enzo down the road at 200 and see how long the fuel lasts you. I suspect the difference wouldn't be too big?


The EV in question had an economy cruise mode, though, which limited your speed to about 60 and gave you a couple of hundred miles on a charge. And it was quiet. They did a drive past at about 70 and all you could hear was tyre noise, a bit of wind noise and a very faint hum.


Wonder how much it cost to build?

« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 09:13:23 AM by BeenzMeenzWind »

nanotech

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2005, 05:16:14 PM »
For those saying a hydrogen powered car is un-doable (is that a word?) I would like to point you to this page : http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm


Metal Hydride storage canisters.  As they state, pressurized hydrogen stored in a car makes your car a driveable BOMB!!  Going liquid is no better as it just adds the problem of chryogenics into the equation, so now you're driving a bomb that can freeze the ** out of you on impact, then burn you to a crisp!!


Along comes metal hydride.  As they said, shooting a fully charged metal hydride storage cylinder with a 50 caliber incendary round didn't make it explode!!  It's actually safer than you current fuel tank.


And look in the back of that Corvette.  600 miles on a single charge of hydrogen.  That's a LOT less space than what a gasoline tank would be for a Corvette to travel 600 miles on!!!


Granted, these folks are currently a little on the pricey side (A LITTLE???  $10,000 for a conversion kit that you still have to install?!?!?), but I think when they get to the production side of things, prices will come down dramatically as they are still hand-making everything from scratch.


Now, let's see the oil companies' reactions to this one : A true "drive for free" system that you refuel your car yourself at home with renewable resources that will eventually actually give you a RETURN on your investment instead of just sucking more cash (and tax dollars) out of your wallet!!


I can't quite afford one of thier systems yet, but you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be keeping them bookmarked for when I CAN afford one!!  :D

« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 05:16:14 PM by nanotech »

ignesandros

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2005, 11:40:48 PM »
I'm still waiting for them to produce them as turbines or rotary engines. Then hydrogen could beat just about any piston-based gasoline engine in both weight and speed. Too bad both engine types are still expensive to produce. Maybe use retired jet engines? :) Of course, you'd want an afterburner for fuel efficiency's sake :).


Research what i'm talking about before you make cracks.


-Andrew

« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 11:40:48 PM by ignesandros »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2005, 01:27:45 AM »
Turbine engines were tried for cars by the Rover company back in 1950.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/8/newsid_2516000/2516271.stm


The problem was fuel efficiency - as it still is with turbine powered vehicles today.  That is why you can produce so much CO2 on one little trip to Hawaii.


Rotary engines might work.  But how would your turbine or rotary engine do when fuelled by petrol?  After all, it'd then have the same power but a lighter fuel tank, so better acceleration.


And there is the problem.  However you cut it, a fuel-cell hydrogen car can be "beaten off the lights" by removing the fuel cell and hydrogen tank and replacing them with batteries; and a hydrogen-powered ICE can be beaten by replacing the hydrogen tank with a petrol tank.


The main problem is the hydrogen tank: it's heavy, it leaks, it's expensive, and often it's either filled with poisons or gas at high pressure.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 01:27:45 AM by thunderhead »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2005, 01:59:27 AM »
The online sales brochure does look good, doesn't it?


Some questions I'd be asking before parting with hard-earned cash are:-



  1. how long does it take to recharge?
  2. what does it contain: and is it poisonous or bad for the environment?
  3. how safe is it in an accident (particularly high temperatures; poisonous or corrosive reagents; and pressure)?
  4. how many recharges will it take before the tanks have to be replaced?
  5. what has been done to ensure that the conversion and installation doesn't leak, and/or leaks are detected before they become a danger?
  6. what do they weigh, and what is the real range, rather than the salesman's figures?
  7. if I'm going to spend that much money on an after-market conversion, how much money do I want to spend on the "donor car", and how much will the result be worth?
  8. would my hard-earned cash be better spent on an EV conversion? ;-)


Point 7, the business about prices and resale values, matters to most car owners.  As a kit-car owner myself, I'm aware of the economics of kit-car ownership, and generally it's way down low in the marketplace.  In car-market terms, us kit-car owners are bottom feeders, scavenging off the cars that fall to the scrap-yard floor.  My kit-car is fast, and turns heads, but it cost me something around $2,500, and I'm expecting to run it until it falls apart or spares run out.  Fortunately it's all-composite, and the donor car is a very popular model of Ford, so I'll get a fair number of years out of it.


And yes, I'm planning to convert it to EV.  But I'm certainly not planning to spend $10,000 on a $2,500 car!  I'm not sure that I'd spend $2,500 on a $2,500 car, unless the result was something very special.  For reference, the batteries - including some spares - cost me about $450 off eBay.  They're just lead-acid AGMs, but they'll do for getting me to work and getting the bugs out of the system.  Now I'm on the lookout for motors.


Here is a research summary on the subject of hydrogen storage from the Washington and Lee University.  It's a couple of years old, but there's going to be at least a two-year lead for technology to get from university to marketplace - and it covers the essentials:-


http://thecollege.wlu.edu/research_service/RELee/Physics2003/LedfordFinal.asp


Most of the questions I've asked are mentioned in this paper.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 01:59:27 AM by thunderhead »

normthehandyman

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2005, 02:25:37 AM »
if you take all the bad arguments for not using H2, you can pretty much guarantee all the governments will love it.  Dangerous so lots of health and safety people need to be employed.  Not easily stored so only licensed storage areas/ generators of it.


yep it's the fuel of the future........

« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 02:25:37 AM by normthehandyman »

finnsawyer

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2005, 09:20:21 AM »
I understand kelp does regular plants one better by actually producing hydrogen in the bladders that help suspend it.  Now there's a process they should be studying!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 09:20:21 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2005, 09:23:35 AM »
Why don't you provide the data and save us the trouble of doing the research?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 09:23:35 AM by finnsawyer »

Bruce S

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2005, 09:30:45 AM »
thunderhead;

 Those are many of the same questions I put forth when I look to doing conversions.

The foremost one is ROI and true usage. Why would I spend x$$ to do a conversion and have less of a vehicle.


I'm curious about your "Kit car", we've have quite the gathering in my neck of the world and I'm now trying to learn the "foam-core" method for doing my own style of vehicles.

 I'm thinking that someone with the moeny to put out for a 'vet won't be too worried about the extra cash to have this done.


points



  1. Recharge for the metal-hydride is faster than filling with pertol has they are using metal pucks that drop into tanks.
  2. H2 and the enviroment.. great mixers goes well with water, and the metal ( which is looking to be compressed carbon) easier to recyle than the plastic bags.
  3. In the possibility that a resultant crash would have a fire... and it got to the H2 before it dissapatied into the air; H2 burns straight up instead of all over the place like propane,NG, or petrol.
  4. Not known yet, but all pressure tanks have a given reduced pressure life that is very well documented.
  5. There are all kinds of regulations that the "kits" must pass before they can even be put on the market. There are of course those like my self how can make this stuff work without a kit, and the DOT can choose not to allow it on the street.
  6. A 3 liter tank weighs 1/3 the amount that a similar gas power system does. This was verified by a chap in Amsterdam that built an enclosed recumbent trike and took it on the EU EV rally last year. and the tank was bolted right behind his head I believe.
  7. unkown due to each vehicles worth.
  8. VERY good question!!


Don't get me wrong, I'm not a H2 nutcase.. I prefer high-test Alky myself.

I believe in the power that batteries have, and have for many years. I have only just a few comments in the storage area, but I have been reading/ learning from posts on here for a few years. Just didn't think my knowledge was up to people's like windstuff ed and volvo's


I am a kinesthetic learner. I have to see, feel, and build before I believe anything.

I happen to believe that using H2 with common sense is another way to go, H2 is soo easy to make I taught my teenage daughter how to do it safely in one day.

We aren't into the mega-psi units, just enough to prove a point.

Sure not as quick as EV units just yet....but given a few more year to mature they could be a very good combination.


Keep those questions coming as this is the only real way to learn, IMO.


Cheers!!

« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 09:30:45 AM by Bruce S »
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whatsnext

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2005, 02:56:55 PM »
This might be the silliest thing I've seen in a while. Let's say the tank system works as advertised. An 80watt solar panel produces about .4 KWH per day. You need a minimum of five to operate the H2 machine so that's about 2KWH/day max. That's about 3 horse power X 1 hour/day max. That would get a mini bike about twenty miles assuming that the conversion is 100% efficiant which it won't be. A Corvette, maybe five miles if you drove at max MPG which would be no fun at all. You'd probably need 10KW watts worth of panels to get your car anywhere and, if you can afford 10KW worth of panels, you can afford the gas to put in your car. This is a dumb idea untill we can make electricity for free and I'm guessing that solar panels will not ever make 'nearly free electricity'. Someone who sells scientific tools should be able to add, subtract, multiply, and devide so it seems odd that these folks would be pushing an idea that can't possibly work. Is the $10,000 conversion cost all solar panels?

John......
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 02:56:55 PM by whatsnext »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2005, 02:18:31 AM »
The amount of energy required for EVs is quite large: I calculated that my daily commute would add between 12kWh and 15kWh to my electricity bills.


However, turning electrical energy into hydrogen which is then used for fuel cells is far less efficient than charging batteries.  Batteries give a charging efficiency of 60% to 80%, depending on chemistry.  But electrolysing water has a theoretical limit to efficiency of not much more than 80% (because it produces a gas, which has to expand) and then the fuel cell might give 60% efficiency if you are lucky.


The net result is that the same commute using homemade hydrogen would add 19kWh to my electricity bills.


Transportation requires big energy: that is a fact of life.  Industrialised nations typically use 1/3 of their energy for transportation.


But hydrogen transportation will still need 50% more energy than electric vehicles, and twice as much energy as "live rail" systems like trains, trams or trolleybuses.


As we struggle to produce our energy needs from renewable sources, I don't think we need hydrogen to drag us down.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 02:18:31 AM by thunderhead »

finnsawyer

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2005, 09:25:54 AM »
If you could use excess wind power to make the hydrogen (a hydrogen generator dump load, as it were), how would it change your calculation?  How about if you could store the oxygen and use it in a cutting torch?  While hydrogen doesn't make much sense on a large scale, it might work for farmers or others that produce their own electricity and use the stuff on site.  At it's most fundamental the hydrogen could be stored and burned later for heat like any fuel.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 09:25:54 AM by finnsawyer »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2005, 10:56:24 AM »
Possibly for a local system storing hydrogen outdoors in low-pressure water traps, it might work.  But I'd still be concerned about safety.  If the hydrogen is polluted with air, there could be an explosion in the tanks; if the hydrogen leaks, since it has no smell and the flame is almost invisible, things could go badly.


At least with biomass methane generators you'll smell the leaks.


Here in the UK, a domestic hydrogen fuel setup would have to be installed by a qualified gas fitter, working according to the official regulations.  I'm not sure how they'd get on - probably quite badly.


An alternative would be a few cubic metres of water to store heat.  Heating a cubic metre of water from 40C to 90C stores 58kWh of energy.  It can be used for domestic hot water or for heating the house.  A four metre cube of water, well insulated, ought to be able to provide all the hot water and central heating for a house in our sunny latitudes.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 10:56:24 AM by thunderhead »

whatsnext

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2005, 01:20:34 PM »
It would not change it at all. Ask anyone here how much of their wind power, or any other power, is 'excessive'. If you had extra power H2 production would have to be your first choice for it's use or it's no choice at all. Water is very very stable, that's why there's so much of it. Cracking it to make auto fuel just doesn't make any sense. I hate tin foil hats as much as the next guy but the only reason I see for the H2 craze is to make sure we keep using oil. Coal can easily be chemicly converted to a great fuel at reletively low cost in both energy and enviromental terms. North America has the worlds largest reserves(I think). Why are we wasting our time with H2?

John........
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 01:20:34 PM by whatsnext »

finnsawyer

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2005, 08:44:43 AM »
So, what are the actual costs (in today's dollars) of producing fuel from coal?  It may not be as cheap as you imply.


Producing hydrogen from wind power as the primary use might also be feasible, since the hydrogen can be used to power different things.  I don't believe storage of the hydrogen as far as leaks are concerned is that big a deal either.  When hydrogen leaks into the atmosphere it heads for space.  Just have adequate ventilation.  They have concluded that the cause of the Hindenberg disaster was a fuel leak, not a hydrogen leak.  Hydrogen has had a bad press over the years because of it, though.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2005, 08:44:43 AM by finnsawyer »

whatsnext

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2005, 02:01:16 PM »
Last time I saw a case study was about a decade ago. At the time the break even point was somewhere around $2/gallon. Now it might be $2.50. There's a reason that huge multinationals have been buying coal reserves. It's becoming a good deal and we will, for all practical purposes, never run out. The science is very well known.

John........
« Last Edit: July 10, 2005, 02:01:16 PM by whatsnext »

BeenzMeenzWind

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2005, 01:18:39 AM »
I was talking to a friend of mine the other night. He's a self confessed diesel nut but is quite knowledgeable about this kind of thing.


We came to the conclusion that the best solution would be to have the engine pack as a modular unit, with either a bank of batteries / fuel cells / whatever or an ICE depending on the circumstances. The back wheels would be driven by permanently mounted electric motors while the front have a motor if you're on electric or a hybrid gearbox / generator when on ICE. You use an EV for commuting and the like and have a high efficiency turbo-diesel / H2 / petrol / whatever for long distance runs.


You could even have a performance 'power pack' for the weekends, if you fancy a bit of race-track action.


Making the power pack quickly swappable shouldn't be too much of a challenge. We think the nice thing about it is that you don't have to buy the ICE. You could have a network of 'swap shops' where you drive in, dump your battery pack and pick up your ICE of choice. Then it becomes a pay as you drive system. Pay for it while you're using it and give it back when you're done.


Only fly in the ointment would probably be cost of the swap / hire, since the swap shops will want to make money too.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2005, 01:18:39 AM by BeenzMeenzWind »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2005, 04:16:16 AM »
We came to the conclusion that the best solution would be to have the engine pack as a modular unit, with either a bank of batteries / fuel cells / whatever or an ICE depending on the circumstances.


I'd agree.  The engine pack I'd call a "generator trailer", and I'd attach it to the vehicle with a standard mains plug and a standard towing hitch.


It would also be useful for doing work in remote locations, and situations where you needed mains electricity and no mains electricity was available - like when Hurricane Dennis flattened your windmill.


You can hire my version from tool hire shops. :-)

« Last Edit: July 11, 2005, 04:16:16 AM by thunderhead »

Daggs

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2005, 02:36:55 PM »
I think the goal of trying to get the same range from an EV as from an ICE car is faulty.


I commute 18 miles to work, one way, twice a day.  If I had an EV that gave me 40 miles range, but was cheap, a two-seater, and had a bit of room for a set of golf clubs, I'd gladly plug it in every night after work.  Hell, I'd put solar cells all over it to recharge while I'm at work!  


I don't think that EV cars will ever seriously compete with ICE vehicles for range.  EV's need to play to their strengths, and long distance isn't one of them.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2005, 02:36:55 PM by Daggs »

thunderhead

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2005, 01:12:10 AM »
I don't think the goal is to get the same range from an EV as from an ICE.  The goal is to get an EV that will drive as far as the stomach and bladder of the driver will comfortably allow, then recharge in the time it takes to sort out these two matters.


Two hundred miles - maybe 3 to 4 hours - of motorway speeds and recharging in 90 minutes probably meets that spec.  And those figures are achievable with today's lithium ion batteries.


There is no need to match the spec of petrol cars, since they will soon be too expensive to run.  


The mammals didn't beat the dinosaurs by building a better dinosaur.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 01:12:10 AM by thunderhead »

BeenzMeenzWind

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2005, 02:45:14 AM »
Have to agree actually. 90% of the time a vehicle with a range of 100 miles would be more than adequate for me. I drive a Ford Transit van usually, so there is plenty of space in the chassis for the batteries and such without impinging on the loadspace.

Given that I carry a generator nearly all the time anyway, I could manage quite happily with an EV Transit. Shame mine's a diesel! Burns WVO really well, though!


I agree that the goal shouldn't be to build a better dinosaur. Most people won't be easily convinced of that, though.


The great unwashed will want an alternatively powered Subaru Impreza WRX (for example. There's loads of 'em round here) that does everything the current one will, but faster, better and cheaper. I'd say you can't have all three, so pick the one that is most important to you personally and accept that the other two are going to be well away from your expectations.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 02:45:14 AM by BeenzMeenzWind »

MountainMan

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Re: A very well presented case for H2 fuels.
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2005, 04:46:37 PM »
Not to steal your thunder...but your pipe is too small.


  1. horsepower = 746 watts
  2. horsepower = 74600 watts
  3. watts/240 volts = 310 AMPS!


So, over 300 amps for a whimpy 100 horsepower drive motor.


It would be more practical to use a special high voltage connection to get the current way down.


jp

« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 04:46:37 PM by MountainMan »