Author Topic: Some more info on capacitors!!  (Read 4157 times)

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bossxero

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Some more info on capacitors!!
« on: December 12, 2005, 09:24:50 AM »
Hi guys,


I need some info on capacitors, Although its easy to get them on google, posting them here is much more helpful and interesting to me :-)  Here goes the questions:


Firstly, there are 2 values printed on a cap, the first is the voltage and the second is the capacitance. The capacitance, i already know is the time that the cap can store the charge, plz do correct me if am wrong.  But as for the voltage, i dont have a good idea about it.  is it the output of the capacitor?  Lets take a 1Farad 6.5v cap as example.  Does it means that when the cap is fully charges, it gives out a constant 6.5v till its discharged?


Secondly, I want to know how to effectively charge a capacitor? Does it needs AC or DC, or does it accepts both for charging?  Do we have to setup something for cap charging?


Thirdly,  whats the output of a capacitor, lets take the 1F 6.5v cap for instance.  How does it output the charge, does it adapt itself to the requirement or it just discharge the whole charge at once? Lets say i want to light a 1.5v lightbulb with it? how will it manage? Will it just discharge all the charge and blow out the bulb or will it adapt itself and supply constant 1.5v till it exhausts itself? Maybe, a voltage regulator should be used here, if so, do mention and outline the process.


Lastly.... maybe am wrong the whole way round!!  Anyway, all your comment,ideas,suggestions etc are most welcomed and I praise all of you for that. Awaiting your replies and thanks in advance.


Regards.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 09:24:50 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2005, 03:02:57 AM »
Although this is simple basic stuff it is difficult to explain it simply to someone without any basic knowledge, I will cover the simple bits.


The voltage rating is the normal working ( maximum ) voltage. If you charge it above that it will die.


Charging is similar to a battery, it needs dc, don't use ac. remember it charges from 0 volts not just below nominal as for a battery, so you may need a current limit.


In every other respect it is nothing like a battery and doesn't discharge at a fixed voltage. The voltage falls continuously with discharge. You can't use it to light lamps without extra circuits. If you short the terminals it discharges with a bang so don't do that.


To light a lamp you need a circuit that limits the voltage in the early part of the discharge and boosts it in the last part. If you just want to light a LED then a current limit circuit will be good enough but not efficient.


To light your 1.5v bulb, which is low in relation to the capacitor nominal voltage you could use a voltage regulator ( without it you blow the bulb). To do it efficiently you need a switching regulator.


I hope this gives you the basic idea.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 03:02:57 AM by Flux »

bossxero

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2005, 05:22:24 AM »
Thanks for the quick reply flux.  For the voltage, it means that, if the capacitor is rated 6v, i should use a source smaller that 6v or equal to charge it, otherwise it will die.  hope am right. So how do i do for the voltage regulator, do you have links to the plans? Another question though, can a capacitor turn a small dc motor (3v) found in toys?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 05:22:24 AM by bossxero »

alcul8r

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2005, 06:07:39 AM »
The quick answer is yes, but I have to add 'not very long.'  The energy density for most caps is not anything near that for a battery.


What this means is you can not store nearly as much electricity for the same size unit measuring by either weight or volume.  As he pointed out, it also varies a bunch.  


Voltage regulators are very common as single chip devices or you can make one from a few diodes depending on your needs.  It will not be efficient.

Rex

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 06:07:39 AM by alcul8r »

wooferhound

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2005, 06:51:32 AM »
To get an Idea about how much power a capaciter will store . . .


1 Farad = about 1.5 amphours

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 06:51:32 AM by wooferhound »

wooferhound

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2005, 07:17:16 AM »
Here is some moere information . . .

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/12/10/101859/63
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 07:17:16 AM by wooferhound »

bossxero

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2005, 07:24:22 AM »
You pointed me to my own post!! :-)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 07:24:22 AM by bossxero »

Norm

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2005, 08:55:52 AM »
The guy's quick Woof....LOL !

              ( :>) Norm.

(No offense intended)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 08:55:52 AM by Norm »

bossxero

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2005, 09:01:12 AM »
O I C


:o)


Now I know...


hehe

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 09:01:12 AM by bossxero »

finnsawyer

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2005, 09:02:14 AM »
The capacitors that Flux is talking about, need a dc bias.  There also are capacitors that don't.  They are intended to work with ac circuits.  A capacitor has a impedance (a lot like resistance) to ac given by Z = 1/(2xpixfxC), where f is the frequency in Hertz, C is the capacitance in Farads, and pi is equal to 3.1415926.  One common use of these capacitors is to isolate stages in an amplifier, where the capacitor's impedance is low compared to the input stage of the following amplifier.  The capacitor blocks dc voltages, but allows the ac to pass through.  Another common use is to filter out ac in power supplies.  If you take the output from a bridge rectifier, it has an ac voltage imposed on a dc voltage.  The capacitor allows the ac current to pass through to ground, but blocks the dc.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 09:02:14 AM by finnsawyer »

Norm

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Try this ??
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2005, 09:26:09 AM »
  Okay...just as an experiment take 2 1.7 volt

AA batterys in series,  hook it to 2 capacitors

of similar physical size in parallel should only...take a split second to chargedisconnect and

hook it to the 3.2 motor and note how long it runs..keep repeating this cycle till the combined voltage of the two batteries drops to

about 3volts.????

  You can probably imagine how many times it

would take ....probably much more than a hundred

times...but even if it was only a hundred times

.....there it would be a 100 capacitors the physical size of AA batteries complete discharged....and the 2 AA batteries still have

3 volts.


                   ( :>) Norm.

Ok I could be wrong....

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 09:26:09 AM by Norm »

kitno455

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Re: Try this ??
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2005, 10:07:38 AM »
no, your right norm, except you are looking at ~1000 times :)


caps are pretty much useless for long-term energy storage, but you can shrink some quarters, really really fast :)


http://teslamania.delete.org/frames/shrinkergallery.html


allan

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 10:07:38 AM by kitno455 »

BigBreaker

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Re: Try this ??
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2005, 10:35:53 AM »
Caps have great power density but lousy energy density.


Said another way... they are like batteries with TINY internal resistance but low capacity.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 10:35:53 AM by BigBreaker »

bossxero

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Re: Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 11:55:45 AM »
Its clearing up in my mind. thanks guys.  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 11:55:45 AM by bossxero »

Kwazai

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Re: Try this ??
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2005, 01:58:49 PM »
question for all the experts out there (definitely not my area), if you take a couple of conductive magnets(electrical wire attached to one side) and put them really close together(like a capacitor) would they not make a battery(flow electricity based on the magnetism?)?

Mike
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 01:58:49 PM by Kwazai »

TomW

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Re: Try this ??
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2005, 03:59:20 PM »
In a word NO


I will let others explain why.


T

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 03:59:20 PM by TomW »

alcul8r

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Re: Try this ??
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2005, 04:45:46 PM »
Sorry, no free energy here.  It is the motion of wires cutting the lines of magnetic force that induces a current.  Just having magnets sitting there will do nothing for you.


Rex

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 04:45:46 PM by alcul8r »

richhagen

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Some more info on capacitors!!
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2005, 05:53:55 PM »
The energy stored in a capacitor is equal to 1/2 of the Capacitance value in farads multiplied by the square of the voltage that the capacitor is charged to.  


As an example, if you wanted to power an led through a resistor from your 6.5 volt 1 farad capacitor, it will of course actually draw more power at the higher voltage than at the lower voltage end of the range, but for this example I will simplify and say that it draws .1 watt through the range of voltage that it will operate through, say 6.5 volts to 3.5 volts, then, you will have .5*1 Farad*((6.5 volts)^2-(3.5 volts)^2)= 15 Joules of energy.  Now a watt is equal to a rate of energy usage of one Joule per second, so if we are using .1 watt and have 15 joules of energy that we are using over this range, then 15 Joules divided by .1 Joules per Second = 150 Seconds, which is the amount of time it will take for your capacitor to reach the 3.5 volt level.  


In reality the resistor and LED would start out bright, and then dim as the voltage of the capacitor dropped.  


For a capacitor where the capacitance is known, you can calculate the amount of energy stored just by knowing the voltage.  Conversly, you can determine the capacitance if you can withdraw a known quantity of energy and measure the starting and ending voltages.  


The larger a capacitor bank is, the flatter the voltage curve becomes as a function of the energy removed from the capacitor.  


If the capacitor in the example above had been 5 farads instead of one, the voltage after 150 seconds would have been ((.5*5 farads*(6.5 volts)^2) - 15 Joules)=.5*5 farads*(final voltage)^2, or (105.625-15)/2.5)^.5 = 6.02 volts.  About 6 volts, so the voltage doesn't change nearly as much as for the 1 Farad capacitor.  It would take it exactly 5 times as long to discharge to 3.5 volts as well.  For a very large capacitor, or a very small load, a capacitor can mimic a battery in that the voltage can remain within 10 or 15% of the starting value.  You would not be using the capacitor very efficiently, however, because if you discharge a capacitor to even as low as half of its original voltage, 1/4 of the original energy remains in the capacitor.  Most electronic devices cannot handle that much of a voltage swing, so when capacitors are used as batteries special circuits are used to convert the energy taken from the capacitor under varying states of charge and supply the energy at the voltage required for the end use.  


The energy stored in a capacitor per unit of weight of the capacitor is much lower than that of most batteries.  The cost per joule of useable energy is much higher than that for batteries in general.  Because of this, you won't see capacitors as the main power supply for your cell phone, cordless drill, or electric car anytime soon.  The power density is greater than that for many batteries meaning that they can discharge more amps per unit of mass for a short period than batteries can, so they see some use in conjunction for batteries for high current uses as in regenerative breaking in hybrid vehicles and in burst transmissions in some cell phones.  The potential for improvements exists in ultracapacitor technology, and it appears likely that the energy density of production models will continue to increase for the forseeable future.  The fact that they can cycle many more times than any battery technology out there that I am aware of plus the potential for further improvements makes me very optimistic about the future of these devices.  


Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 05:53:55 PM by richhagen »
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

Lurker 417

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Re: Try this ??
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2005, 07:34:55 PM »
Whoa! There is some crazy stuff at the other end of that link! Shrunken coins, single-use work coils, blast sheilds, exploding substations, plastic fractals...


Thanks, Allan. That was quite a trip.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 07:34:55 PM by Lurker 417 »