Author Topic: selling power? (Read 2909 times)

porkchop · « **on:** January 11, 2006, 03:41:27 PM »

(blank)

Phil Timmons · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2006, 10:13:35 AM »

Goooood Topic.

Yeah, I have pondered this a fair amount, too.

Locally, TXU (Texas Utilities) does not "buy back." They allow you to consume from them during your own high-use/low-production periods, and turn your meter backwards during your own high-production/low-use periods. It starts over every month and if you have given them more than you used, they consider it a gift to them. It is called Net Metering.

In a another part of Texas, we are working on a project where the local co-op requires two meters (in and out) and charge you full fare (12 cents a kW) on what you use, and pay you wholesale (3 cents a kW) for what you produce.

So pondering all this with my neighbors (a welding shop and a machine shop) they have agreed to buy our surplus power at half of the utility rate if put in a bsck door "Phil Grid." I think I can get away with this since I am a licensed electrical contractor and all . . . but dunno for real, yet.

Anybody else do power-sharing/selling with the neighbors?

Ungrounded Lightning Rod · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2006, 12:28:35 PM »

Sierra Power (Nevada) has net metering on the same extra-generation-is-a-gift basis.

But in addition to doing it monthly you can arrange for an annual net-meetering interval, so you can "store power" on the grid in sunny or windy months and consume it during darker, calmer times.

They also had a separate arrangement (from before the net metering days, when you needed a two-meter system) where you can have a separate drop to your genny site and group the bills, so you're effectively using the grid to get your power from a remote genny to your house in addition to using it as a big battery. I assume that's still available.

I'm not actually using either (or even generating my own juice at the moment). Don't plan to, either, unless the price of grid-tie inverters comes down a whole bunch or the price of power goes 'way up. Or if it turns out to be cost effective to use a grid-tie inverter to perform the automatic switchover for the emergency backup circuits to keep the fridge, well, and furnace alive during outages.

(I'd have gone with alternative power from day one except the damned contractor called the power company and spent the money earmarked for A.P. to run the line before I caught him.)

drdongle · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2006, 08:51:29 PM »

Net metering ( also know as grid tie) IMHO is seldom worth the time and trouble unless you do it in a big way and work out a deal with the local power co.

As stated above most power companyies will your power at a rate favorable to them.

I know that I will never bother with it.

force9BOAT · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2006, 11:07:44 PM »

I read on the Puget Sound Energy (PSE) web site, the power company that serves the Seattle area, that they have about 250,000 customers and from that number all of 18 are Net Meter accounts. They also say that of the 18 Net Meter accounts none have surplus power to send back to the grid.

RP · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2006, 08:39:32 PM »

NTL,

Now, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

;-)

nothing to lose · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2006, 03:26:08 AM »

Thanks for the comment, I was looking for that post! Since it is not here now and your comment is, then the one I was looking for has been deleted, thank goodness!

It was not really me but my evil twin

Honestly though, my system got abused and I did not post all that stuff myself.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2006, 03:43:54 AM »

Posted an apology for that post that is now deleted in rants an opinions because I had seen that post once but then I could not find it when looking now.

I shall say I am sorry it happened here also, for those that may have read it before it was deleted. I had left my system logged in as I often do, was starting to post a comment then went off to do a couple things as I again often do at night durring postings. I got company durring that time. I forgot I left the system in that state and let a couple people use it. One friend asked to check e-mail, later I found a couple others were surfing porn and other garbage with my system. We don't like each other but they were with my freinds so I put up with them at times.

So I geuss that's somehow about how it happened, one of them trashed the comment I had started posting myself before they closed all my browsers and surfed the porn I geuss.

I apologize again, very sorry it happened. I will be more carefull so it does not happen again!

Unfortunately this was not the only posting I had open at that time, I am looking for any other bad posts needing deleted. I hope this was the only one, but if you find another please let me know. I shall not let it happen again, and very sorry it happened this time.

carlb23 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2006, 09:46:17 AM »

I live in New Jersey, we installed a 7kw grid tied system december 2004. We have netmetering and a very good state incentive for installing renewable energy, in the case of PV they will pay $5.10 a watt toward the total installation up to 10kw system.

Last year we generated just over 8500khw and used only 6500khw. The electric company is bound by law in New Jersey to buy it back at wholesale price which was in my case .065 cents per khw. I received a credit on my electric bill for 117.50 dollars last month. I will begin freash this year and hope to be able to sell them back even more this year since I plan on installing a 1.8kwh wind turbine.

Also as a side note for every megawatt generated (in my case 8.5) you can sell the rights to the power company to say they generated the energy. Even though you use the energy they will buy the right to say they did since the state requries the utilities to produce a portion of their energy from renewable sources. I sold 3mwh last year for 185.00 dollars per mwh and have 5.5 that I can sell now.

I know it doesn't make sence in a lot of cases to install grid tied systems, but in New Jersey it makes all the sence in the world. Last year between what we saved in electricity cost and what we made on the sale of "green tags" was just over 2800 dollars.

Here is a link to the New Jersey web site so you can get an idea what I am talking about.

http://www.njcep.com/srec/

willib · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2006, 09:12:59 AM »

Your from jersey ? I'm from jersey! lol inside joke ..

where abouts?

carlb23 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2006, 09:22:11 AM »

Mullica Hill

RP · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2006, 09:25:36 AM »

That was one of my favorite Joe Piscapo skits on SNL.

finnsawyer · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2006, 09:49:50 AM »

You don't give the figures for what it cost you to put in the system, versus the $36,000?!?! subsidy? While the $2800 return looks good, it still must be referenced to the total cost of the system and the expected life span. A valid question is whether the taxpayers are getting their money's worth. Would it still make sense without the subsidy? I also would like to know what N to L thinks of this particular approach and result, considering his past comments about net metering.

carlb23 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:54:43 PM »

When I installed my system the Rebate was at 5.50 per watt or 38,500 dollars in rebate money. My out of pocket expense was 12,050 dollars(the company that did the install floated the entire cost less my 12,050 payment then they got the rebate from the state) so my payback will be just over 4 years. The panels are guarenteed for 25 years and the inverters for 5years. Every day over the 4 year payback period is pure savings/profit. There are no batteries to maintain and you don't even know the system exists except for the 2.40 dollars per month customer charge from the electric company. The 2,800 dollars the system made this year can only increase as the price of energy increases. The state has mandated that the utilities increase the amount of energy they produce by RE over the next 10 years by aprox .25% per year. This will result in the price of the green tags/Srec's staying between the 235 nad 250 dollar per Mwh. when I sold my Srec's in 2005 they went for 200 per mwh. The going price today is 235 per mwh.

The amount of power my system made this year 8.5mwh reduced the amount of CO in the air by just over 5.5 tons so it is doing a good job of helping the enviorment as well.

finnsawyer · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2006, 08:29:12 AM »

So, your payback is 4+ years, the State's 13 or so for a minimum total payback time of 17 years. And this doesn't include little things like replacing the inverter and just plain wear and tear. For an individual paying the entire cost it would be marginal at best. In that case it would not meet my 10% per year return criterion. The State's return as far as the other issues are concerned is too hard to assess. The program is certainly more generous than Michigan's.

Gary D · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2006, 09:03:08 AM »

Carlb23, sounds like a great state incentive program! Getting 6.5 cents per kwh wholesale plus whatever you can get for the "green tag" sale (looked like 1 to 2.6 cents per kwh. according to the link). That's close to the retail I pay (10 cents per kwh.) in Pa.! Would be logical to consider going up to a 20 kw. Jacobs as an investment if funds allowed. The low cost loans your state would float for you might make it feasible... It seems like wind and biomass are lumped into the solar incentive, if I understood the charts correctly. Nice retirement investment if you are in a decent wind area... Love the fact that the "green tags" are for actually produced power, not just the potential! Looks like at least one State "gets it"!!! Congrats go to New Jersey!!! My opinion only ... Gary D.

carlb23 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2006, 02:50:03 PM »

Since there are no batteries to fail and I figure if an inverter fails in year seven my out of pocket at todays prices is less than 3,000 dollars for the inverter and I doubt that these inverters will fail the soon I am not concerned with an inverter failure. As far as wear and tear there is very little in the system to wear out, the entire system consists of 50 panels 2 inverters and a few disconnests and breakers. I agree if someone had to pay the entire amount out of pocket the ROI would be marginal at best, but with the the state paying 70% of the total installed cost or 5.50 per watt in my case and the high dollars utilities are paying for green tags for me it was a no brainer.

carlb23 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2006, 03:01:22 PM »

Gary

I was only paid 6.5 cents for the overage we produced at the end of the first year in service, we used the rest of the energy. The green tags can be either estimated or actual depending on how you set it up with the state when you setup up an account, but in any case even though you use the energy you get full credit for every khw you produce.

As far as installing a 20kw Jacobs the fly in the ointment is that the state will only subsidise the installation if it is under 10kwh or exceedes you use by no more than 20% so I can not install a large wind turbine and expect the state to subsidise it

Even at that I am so glad we did the grid tied system and even if after the payback period of 4+years if I only net 3,000 a year out of the system it still seems like money for doing nothing to me.

ghurd · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2006, 04:22:29 PM »

I hope they didn't mount them as poorly as they did on the White House.

That would void the warrenty as soon as they were installed. (for many brands)

Yep. Good work. No brainer. Seems like a case study.

G-

finnsawyer · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2006, 08:43:04 AM »

Of course, the state can't keep that up very long. It'll go bankrupt. Michigan can't afford it from the git - go, but they still find things to throw money at. Weird!

As far as the CO2 is concerned, we might reduce CO2 emissions more if we stopped using aluminum for everything, as aluminum refining results in large CO2 emissions. What's wrong with glass pop bottles anyway? Personally, I don't trust aluminum cookware. How much of the aluminum is being leached by natural food acids and ending up in our brains? Altzheimer's anyone?

willib · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2006, 11:55:07 AM »

But i am from new jersey thats the sad part, <

clown hat winkey eye smiley face , another inside joke lol

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Author Topic: selling power? (Read 2909 times)