Author Topic: My first project  (Read 3070 times)

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who8myrice

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My first project
« on: July 13, 2006, 09:46:52 PM »
Hello everyone,


This is pretty much my 3rd time posting on the boards, and im still extremely new to this type of stuff, especially the battery part.


I know this is kind of sad that I dont know this, but can someone tell me why 10.00 volts in a 12v battery is considered extremely low? and also, if its not at 12v, how can the inverter still run 12v appliances?


second, im going to simply go to the scrap yard and buy like 10 batteries for around $10 each. I know deep cycle batteries, such as 6v golf cart batteries, are much better to use for storage, but im only powering a tree house (with a fair amont of electronics ;) ) and plus im using a wind generator so it will be running all night (its always extremely windy where i live) and constantly charging (definitely going to need a charge controller). So i was wondering, is there a way to test if the batteries i buy are good and are actually going to charge?


and last but not least, could someone plz give me a picture or explain to me how you connect multiple batteries together? this would be greatly appreciated!


I thanky you in advance for your time!

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 09:46:52 PM by (unknown) »

kurt

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 04:01:37 PM by kurt »

Volvo farmer

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Re: My first project
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2006, 05:40:58 PM »
I think it would be foolish to spend $100 on old car batteries. Brand new 6 volt TRUE deep-cycle batteries were less than $60 each at Sam's club last time I checked. You put ten old car batteries in parallel for 12V, you're going to have nothing but problems.


I would recommend, before you spend a dime on this project, to spend about two weeks reading everything you can find on the 'net about these subjects. All the information is out there.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 05:40:58 PM by Volvo farmer »
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wdyasq

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Re: My first project
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2006, 06:12:54 PM »
"second, im going to simply go to the scrap yard and buy like 10 batteries for around $10 each."


Volvo,


Note he isn't asking advice. He is making statements. He is obviously going to DO something, even if it is wrong. Then he will have wasted his time and money and proven it doesn't work.


If you read the board a bit and use a little analysis you can see this repeated. Few have the diligence to research adn persever in building working things. Sure, you did it - But you were just lucky....


Ron

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 06:12:54 PM by wdyasq »
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richhagen

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Re: My first project
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2006, 06:36:51 PM »
Car starting batteries will not hold up for long if repeatedly cycled more than a few percent deeply.  For $100 plus a little more for tax, you can buy two new 6 volt golf cart batteries which would be a better match to your proposed use.  (Sam's club had them at $49.99 recently)  Read the battery FAQ linked to on the bottom of the front page here at WWW.OtherPower.Com


Your wind will not blow all the time and you will discharge the batteries if running equipment with no inputs.  


To simplify:

Batteries store power by a reversible chemical reaction.  Electricity is conducted into the battery causing the reaction to go in one direction, and when power is drawn from the battery, the chemicals react in the opposite direction.  This tends to hold the voltage fairly level with only slight changes during normal use.  As reaction progresses all the way to discharge, the voltage drops further, and when a typical 12V battery has reached 10.2 volts or so, almost all of the energy that can be taken out of the battery via the chemical reaction has been taken out.


hope this helps a bit, Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 06:36:51 PM by richhagen »
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JW

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Re: My first project
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2006, 06:41:36 PM »
WASDAG-Q,


 now, now,


This guy is trying to power a tree house after all. Look if you have some known good 550cca automotive type batterys you can run the trolling motor on my 6.5 foot scooner in bisycane bay for 8hr(without a sticker) . 2 batterys that did not need de-sulfation would do this nicely. Yes, the first one would overheat by the time you got it down to 10volts, but who cares, you could easly get home with the fully charged one on standby. Personally, I think a tree house, really doesnt need a gid tie invertor. But yes he is making a statement in order to cumunicate. If such and such wasnt bought up, then were would we be.


"miss adventure is half assed planning- Donald Duck"


(;


JW

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 06:41:36 PM by JW »

who8myrice

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Re: My first project
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2006, 06:44:03 PM »
ok.. so i exagerated.. im not actually spending $100 on old car batteries that will probably only last 1 year, in fact, i'll probably only buy 2, for im only powering a tree house, but yeah, i might just buy two 6volt batteries and then parallel/series them to make 12 volts and 400 amps
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 06:44:03 PM by who8myrice »

RogerAS

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Re: My first project
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2006, 06:49:10 PM »
Who8,


#1 First off, the ratings for battery voltage:

A simple drycell flashlight battery rated at 1.5V will be considered "dead" when it gets down around .75V. The same is true of a 12V flooded lead acid battery. The reason? Because the voltage will no longer be high enough to light a standard flashlight blub, in the case of the dry cell, or be able to run loads needed for 12V applications like a common 1157 automotive taillight bulb. Sure you could continue to drain either further, but not for normal loads. In the case of a 12V battery one might be able to drain it further into a load requiring less voltage, like a 6V load of some sort. If you don't care about ruining the battery go ahead. I sold my nieghbor my first set of 6V golf carts (still good) and he left a water pump on while he was out on the road (a long haul trucker) for a month. I happened to check them and they were down to 3.2V. These batteries never held a charge again, even after repeated attempts to equalize. So if you drain them to deeply or let them stay drained for too long, say bye bye.


#2 Inverters:

Inverters, at least none I know of, supply any 12V appliance or load. They produce alternating current. They do this by various means but basically they convert the low voltage DC into a higher voltage AC. Most will not go on doing this after the votage of the source (battery) reaches a preset low point or high point. Inverters use step up methods to raise the voltage in the AC side and good ones have output voltage regulation to keep the output at the specified AC state (110-220 or whatever), even if the source voltage goes under 12V, down to that cutoff point.


#3 Scrap yard goodies:

Sure, get all the parts you need to start on a turbine, or yard art or whatever you can get for your HARDWARE needs. Forget the batteries, they will be in the same state as the example in item #1. Besides that if you could find nearly new automotive batteries they are NOT what you need for a renewable setting. The physical makeup of the starter type batteries would make brand new ones have a short and unhappy life. True deep cycle batteries can take a lot of abuse, 4 to 5 times more than the starter type, before they fail. So don't do it! They can take overcharging better too. Go buy 4 or 6 golf carts and start out right. You'll be glad you did in a year or two from now. It doesn't matter how well you think you can keep them charged. When you need them most the wind will die and the sun will be obscured, and you will lose the batteries. Then when you have to buy new cables clamps and all that for the new golf carts you would have been abe to buy another set or two of the real batteries.


#4 Connecting batteries:

If you're dead set on the junkyard 12V batteries just hook then all up positive to positive, and neg to neg. Use big thick cable. I make up my own clamps with those strip down the cable and clamp on type lugs, but I ROSIN CORE solder them together (cable & Clamp). I'm using some 5 years old right now. Attach the inverter with as short a lead as you can make as per manf. instructions. I like to draw neg from one end of the string and pos from the other. I don't know if it makes a difference but that's what I do. If you wisely choose new gold carts pretend each pair of 6V batteries are actually one 12V. Make a short jumper to connect one batteries positive to the others neg, then do as above for the other pairs. This is called series (2 6V) and the above is parallel(>1 12V).


#5 Charge control:

Yes you will need a chage controller, and it should also have a dump load diverter function. You feel you will always have wind power, so you will have to divert the output of the mill somewhere when the batteries get up to 14.5 or more. I never have this problem but you will as there might be times when no power is being used. I hope to face this issue by fall myself. The Trace C-40 will do this nicely, but you'll need a load of some sort to absorb this power.


Like others have said, do a LOT of research, or learn like I did, the hard way!


Hope I've helped.


RogerAS

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 06:49:10 PM by RogerAS »

who8myrice

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Re: My first project
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2006, 06:52:09 PM »
thanks a lot rich, it did help, and yeah i was thinkin about connecting the two 6 volts to make 12 volt and like 400 amps but i was tryin not to spend $100 on batteries, oh well, i ended up saving money on the windmill, so its all good
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 06:52:09 PM by who8myrice »

who8myrice

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Re: My first project
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2006, 07:13:25 PM »
wow roger, thanks a lot, you are so far the most helpful person I think i have ever met in my life :)


P.S.- Yes im going to buy 2 of the 6v's, but do you know how many amps each one holds?

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 07:13:25 PM by who8myrice »

JW

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Re: My first project
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2006, 07:24:25 PM »
Ok Who8,


 PS

When you refer to this question, in the future, -state' amp hours'


JW

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 07:24:25 PM by JW »

dinges

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Re: My first project
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2006, 08:00:20 PM »
Guess these are the modern times for ya; an electrified tree house... <shaking head in disbelief>


How 'bout a battery torch and a portable battery radio?


"Back when I was a kid we didn't have them fancy tree houses with electricity", he said, in his grandpa voice.


Grandpa agrees with the others: read this board. It's much more fun for your projects to be succesful than fail. Who knows, you might actually start enjoying reading & learning all about this new-fangled non-grid electricity?


Peter (anno 1973)

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 08:00:20 PM by dinges »
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JW

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Re: My first project
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2006, 08:15:23 PM »
Far-Fig-Newton,


 DUDE, in our tree-house, we were shooting 3-stage rockets out of that thing.


JW

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 08:15:23 PM by JW »

who8myrice

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Re: My first project
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2006, 08:19:21 PM »
hehe :) what can i say :D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 08:19:21 PM by who8myrice »

Volvo farmer

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Re: My first project
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2006, 09:48:55 PM »
Dude! We were shooting roman candles AT my "fort". 12x12 2 stories with galvanized metal on the sides. Made a neat sound when the little firey balls hit the steel.


I got electricity by stealing two spools of Dad's 14ga stranded and running it along the fenceline 200' back to the "fort". Plugged in Dad's battery charger, hooked up a couple 1157s and a radio and I was set. Not off grid, mind you, but I had electric light dammit.


 

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 09:48:55 PM by Volvo farmer »
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who8myrice

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Re: My first project
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2006, 10:09:39 PM »
nice! That sounds fun :D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 10:09:39 PM by who8myrice »

richhagen

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Re: My first project
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2006, 12:32:20 AM »
Just a note, if you connect two similar batteries in series, the voltage is double that of a single battery, and the amp-hours stay the same as that of a single battery.  If you connect them in parallel, the amp-hour capacity is double that of a single battery, but the voltage is the same as that of a single battery.  For the two 220 or so amp hour 6 volt golf cart batteries, if you connected them in series, you would get 12 volts and 220 amp hours, in parallel you would have 6V at 440 amp hours.  Rich
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 12:32:20 AM by richhagen »
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RogerAS

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Re: My first project
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2006, 04:53:52 AM »
Who8,

The Sam's club ones I have are 220 AH, and should do just fine, and with exchange are around $50 each.


RogerAS

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 04:53:52 AM by RogerAS »

RogerAS

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Re: My first project
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2006, 05:31:22 AM »
Who8,


Forgot to mention:


Thanks for the kind words. After my recent rouge elephant rampage here I feel I have a BUNCH of dues to pay. Good luck.


RogerAS

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 05:31:22 AM by RogerAS »

ghurd

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Re: My first project
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2006, 06:41:43 AM »
Or a pair of used 6V might be had from a battery dealer or golf course.

Maybe not perfect. Better than used car batteries!

G-
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 06:41:43 AM by ghurd »
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veewee77

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Re: My first project
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2006, 08:00:16 AM »
if you buy two 6V golf car batteries from Sam's or Wal-Mart-fall-apart, those are 220 amp hour batteries.  When you series two 6V batteries to get 12Volts, it will still be 220 amp hours, but at 12 volts. Series wiring adds voltage. Parallel wiring adds current (amps).


The next thing you will have to decide is what type(s) of charging sources you will have. And these charging sources, whatever they are must, with no exception, exceed your load watts by at lease 20% or you will kill those batteries in short order.


Example: If you determine that your system averages 100 watt hours of drain per day, you will need a minimum of 120 watt hours of input per day.


At 12 volts, 100 watts is 8.33 amps.  By the same token, this works out to about 8.33 amp hours.


Let's say your source is solar, a 10 watt panel at nominal 12 volts:


The sun shines an average of 5 hours per day (it won't).

The solar panels put out 10 watts (this is their peak rating (they won't)).


This equates to 50 watt hours per day of input. That is half what you used. In the end, ruined batteries.


Double the solar panels, and even though it will take longer, ruined batteries.


Triple the solar panels, and it will be close.


Three 10 watt panels, which make 50 watts each for 150 watts total. You needed 120W input so now you are slightly ahead of the game.  Still a chance for ruined batteries unless you are very careful.


Remember that solar panels are rated at their peak watts and at an optimal voltage (not necessarily the voltage of your system) and in direct sunlight.  For most installations, the output is generally less sue to directional inaccuracy, voltage differences and other factors.


Now, add wind to the mix and the numbers go crazy again. Same basic issues apply.  How much will it make per day on average. Subtract a minimum of 20%. This is what you have to work with as far as output.


As others have said, read, read, read. Otherpower.com and other sources are wonderful for explaining all this stuff.


Doug

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 08:00:16 AM by veewee77 »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: My first project
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2006, 08:59:47 PM »
when a typical 12V battery has reached 10.2 volts or so, almost all of the energy that can be taken out of the battery via the chemical reaction has been taken out.


As I understand it, the reason 10.2 volts is considered "don't go below it" is that the cells of a battery will normally hold slightly different amounts of charge.  When you discharge it, one of 'em will run out first, and suddenly drop to zero.  At that point the other five will still be showing about 2v each for about 10.2v total.


If you pull more current, the still-have-some-charge cells will drive current through the fully-discharged one, charging it backward - which damages it very quickly.  So going below about 10.2 volts tends to wreck the battery.


If your battery is nearly "equalized" (all cells have about the same amount of charge), when one cell hits zilch the other five will be nearly empty.  So there's not much more to get anyhow.


(With use the difference in the leakage between the cells gradually causes the battery to lose equalization.  So you have to do an "equalizing charge" once in a while, driving some extra current through the battery after the high cells are full to bring up the low cells - which causes the full cells to electrolyze water and blow off some gas.  You can read all about this stuff in other articles.)

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 08:59:47 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »