Author Topic: transformer info needed  (Read 2215 times)

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bob golding

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transformer info needed
« on: October 13, 2009, 02:44:18 AM »
hi all,

 i have just acquired a power supply to use as a battery charger. when i opened it up i noticed it consists of 2 transformers. one is tapped 200 220 255 volts input and 36 volts output. pretty standard stuff. no current rating but it is fairly large so i guess around 3 kw. this is connected to a pair of stud diodes. what i am not sure about is  that there is also a auto transformer marked 240 160 volts between the mains input and the transformer primary. anyone know the purpose of this auto transformer. ? i have not got info on the current rating, but the diodes are  70hf60 studs. 70 amps 60 volts? i want to use it to charge a 24 volt battery bank. i will be using a variac. will it current limited by the internal resisance of the battery? i have a 50 amp meter which i will be using anyway with the variac.


cheers

bob golding

« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 02:44:18 AM by (unknown) »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

Flux

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Re: transformer info needed
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 05:53:48 AM »
It's not uncommon to use an auto transformer for battery charges intended for various places with odd mains voltages, it saves having a lot of awkward taps on the main transformer. For standard voltage areas the main transformer taps would probably be sufficient but the auto makes it possible to cater for odd areas.


I don't think the internal resistance of the battery is going to limit anything. If you are running this from an alternator then the reactance of your alternator is going to be the limiting factor. These single phase battery chargers with no inductive filtering usually work very badly on alternators and you may not be able to screw as many amps out as you think. As you go down on the mains input taps you will most likely lop the peaks off the alternator volts and you will increase heating and engine loading with very little increase in the charging current. Some alternators are very much better than others and the self excited capacitor brushless ones are usually the worst.


A bit of power factor correction across the alternator terminals may help but connect the capacitors to the battery charger otherwise the alternator volts may shoot way up if you disconnect the charger if you have too much leading power factor.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 05:53:48 AM by Flux »

bob golding

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Re: transformer info needed
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 01:22:26 PM »
thanks flux,

i have a load of pfc caps 14 off 30 microfarad 440 volts. how should i use them? power factor correction  has always felt like a black art to me. should i put some load on the transformer and look at the waveform, adding caps  until it looks something like a sine wave? haven't found a simple explanation about how to do it. i understand why there is no simple answer, given the possable scenarios one could have. the caps are rs so might find some info on the current rating.


cheers

bob

« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 01:22:26 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

Flux

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Re: transformer info needed
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 12:36:43 AM »
Power factor correction is a fairly understandable process for normal sine wave mains devices. Most loads are a combination of inductive and resistive, the supply has to supply an in phase current to the resistive bit and a reactive current to the inductive bit. The total line current is the vector sum of both and the increased current causes increased I^R losses in the supply cables and the power station alternator. A capacitor can neutralise the inductive component and just leave the in phase resistive bit at unity power factor.


Once you get into the realms of non linear loads such as rectifiers then power factor still remains as the definition of true power/ VA but the more common description of V x I x cos ( phi) no longer applies. The low power factor with non linear loads results from waveform distortion rather than a phase shift between volts and amps. This can't be corrected by just adding capacitors across the line. This is really where it becomes a black art.


There can sometimes be an improvement even in this case but the improvement comes about in various other ways and it doesn't always work out. Capacitors are not going to directly correct the power factor in this case of distorted waveforms but they will correct any residual inductive components that are in the system from transformer magnetising current or other stray things.


The other thing that capacitors do across an alternator is increase its excitation and this may be the factor that brings you most benefit. Rectifiers produce large current spikes that chop off the peaks of the alternator waveform resulting in a high volt drop during this critical period depending on the impedance of the alternator. Anything that can make the alternator stiffer during this current peak will help.


The scope is not going to tell you a lot but you should be able to see the chopped top to the waveform and anything that holds the peak up is going to benefit you, the rest of the waveform is of no relevance and improving it to make it more pretty will have no effect.


You can make a far better single phase battery charger for running from alternators by including a large choke in the dc output from the rectifier. This forces the conduction to take place over the complete half cycle instead of on the peak and the impedance has less effect.


To do this you need a higher voltage transformer as you are going from peak volts to mean. You will need a transformer capable of supplying about 1.5 times as many volts

and the choke needs a lot of inductance and negligible resistance ( a big one).


Hope this helps.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 12:36:43 AM by Flux »

bob golding

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Re: transformer info needed
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 03:43:46 PM »
hi flux,

thanks for such a concise and full explanation. i understand the problems a little better now. i knew the usual rules went out the window with small generators and big batttery chargers. i have a  unwanted 3 phase 10 kw auto transformer i could strip and turn into a choke. it has 2 mm wire so should be ok for current carrying capacity. no problem rewinding it and adapting it. i used something similar on a tesla coil spark gap circuit where the secondary is shorted every half cycle. not to sure how to determine the airgap though in this application. do i short the output with a ammeter and some resistance in circuit and adjust the air gap for maximum current. hopefully i wont saturate the core as the choke is bigger than the transformer. will have to see how much voltage i can get out of it. if the worse come to the worse i  might be able use it as a 12 volt charger instead.  


cheers

bob

« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 03:43:46 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

Flux

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Re: transformer info needed
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 01:38:40 AM »
The choke should be fairly non critical if you have a big core and plenty of turns.


A small air gap will give most inductance when you need it at low current, this small gap will tend to give some core saturation at high current but you need less then anyway. I suspect something from 1 to 2mm should be perfectly ok.


The same approach was used with choke input filters in the valve amplifier days and it was often called a swinging choke because of the fall of inductance with load.


You can indeed play with the air gap and find the best but as long as there is some gap it normally makes very little difference.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 01:38:40 AM by Flux »