Author Topic: Introduction and question about water pump  (Read 12355 times)

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miglesia

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Introduction and question about water pump
« on: February 21, 2006, 06:05:36 PM »
Hello, my name is Manuel and live in Madrid.
I own 2,5 acres of cultivable land, and I will make a pond and windmill for a drip irrigation system feed from an irrigation chanel.

I'd like to install a little dynamo as well, and my goal is to keep it as much simple as posible, what do you think of the idea in this graph? (the one with the axle)
I know is not efficient, but is simple to make.

Thankyou,
Manuel



« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 06:05:36 PM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 10:04:24 PM »
Thats a nice drawing ,my compliments the the artist!

Manuel , it may look simple to make ,but it is frawt with problems , mainly the drag type vertical axis wind turbine you have there. the rotational speed will be very bad ,after it comes out of the differential.


my advice is go with a nice set of blades and a alt/generator.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 10:04:24 PM by willib »
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miglesia

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2006, 10:55:07 PM »
In the book (the drawing is not mine, I think the book would like the people of this forum) claims about 15-30 rpm in the vawt, about 70-140 in the pole, and between 600-1500 in the generator (50-100 watts), besides pumping a rope pump for example.


I don't have much time nor a good place where build complex things, that's why I was looking for simplicity in this first try. Also the pump is the first need, not the electricity.


What design do you suggest with that simplicity in mind?.


Thank you, Manuel.


PD: Forgive my poor english.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 10:55:07 PM by miglesia »

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 11:03:50 PM »
Beautiful drawings. I think the problem will be, how much water do you need every day? If the wind isn't blowing hard, you won't get much. If it's brisk, you could do fine.n I'm obviously biased, since we are building electrical wind turbines all the time up here. I'd put in a solar panel, a DC HAWT turbine, and whatever controls and/or batteries were needed, and pump electrically. ADMIN
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 11:03:50 PM by ADMIN »

miglesia

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2006, 06:40:35 AM »
I will make a pond, and use a gravity fed drip irrigation system, so I have to raise the water only about 3 meters, I think 25.000 liters would be enough in the end, but initially only 1000 liters, three times a week.


Don't you think a mechanical pumping would be simpler?

In other words, what do you think is the simplest method of raising water a few meters?


Thanks, Manuel

« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 06:40:35 AM by miglesia »

DanG

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 08:37:40 AM »
http://www.lurkertech.com/chris/eco/pump/tailer/


tilted wheel or spiral pump - wind & solar power for electric motor if you have no flowing water to power pump in traditional fashion....

« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 08:37:40 AM by DanG »

miglesia

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 01:06:09 PM »
Wonderful, thank you very much, I'm nearly crying because the last owner changed the open irrigation channel for a close tube :-(

Just another question, in the books of the nice drawings, says a savonius rotor can brake in a storm, that's why they only recommend the panemona of the draw and its low efficiency. What do you think about that, the savonius you built has some way of protection for high wind speed?

Thank you

Manuel
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 01:06:09 PM by miglesia »

willib

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 11:09:52 PM »
Manuel

i've seen some very large  savonius wind turbines , on the web, in my opinion , if they are supported at the top ,with a frame, they should hold up in any weather ..

an added benefit to the  savonius is , if one isnt giving you the power you need , just put another one  on top .

You should consider stacking them when designing the first one..that way ,just add another frame and savonius on top , and you are good to go!!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 11:09:52 PM by willib »
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Julio

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2006, 08:58:57 AM »
Manuel:

Raising water (Even if it is a few meters) requieres some sort of a pump either mechanically or electrically operated. Your could use a savonius mill as you plan to raise your water using a mechanical pump such as the ones operated by hand. But the speed you will get out of the differential will be much too slow to generate electricity as well. It seems to me you have two problems and since your main one appears to be water I would suggest you take that one first.


I doubt that you will gain much installing additional fins to this installation at a later time as rotational speed will not increase and supposedly you already have enough torque to power your pump. If this upgrade was made to increase torque in order to increase speed at the power output by some multiplication gear you will also be increasing your pumping rate unless rotation multiplication to generate electricity occured after you powered your pumping gear. This is feasible but gets to be complicated.


On the other hand, if you were to build a generator to electrically pump your water you are still solving your water problem. This appears to me to be the simpler and cleaner solution. Building a generator is not that difficult. Building your pump is. I know.


Julio.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 08:58:57 AM by Julio »

willib

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2006, 09:14:59 AM »
"On the other hand, if you were to build a generator to electrically pump your water you are still solving your water problem. This appears to me to be the simpler and cleaner solution. Building a generator is not that difficult. "


Of course , this is the best solution , because when his generator doesnt need to pump water , it could be supplying power to his other needs.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 09:14:59 AM by willib »
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miglesia

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2006, 10:51:47 AM »
First of all, thank you for your responses, I think this is one of the best group of people I found (virtually :)


I will build a generator, and a better rotor, but currently I have not enough time, and a rope pump or a spiral pump like the one you sow me, are simpler in my current circumstances.


My decision is between savonius or panemona or something equally simple to build: a couple or buckets, a pole, some gears and nothing of furling, balanced blades, etc. that will come in the future and I'm already searching in the archive of this site.


I thought that generating electricity, and then move an engine with it would suffer from more energy lost than using the energy directly in a mechanical way. Every step has his own efficiency, in other words, every step loose some amount of energy, so keeping in an "all mechanical" would be more "energy saving".


My english is very poor, so I try to express in several ways.


Thanks

Manuel

« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 10:51:47 AM by miglesia »

willib

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2006, 11:16:34 AM »
i've looked at that spiral pump an dont see how it could pump water higher than the perimeter of the loop. i may be wrong on this , but intuitivly it doesnt seem possible.

i still think that the generator is the better way to go.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 11:16:34 AM by willib »
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ghurd

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2006, 01:23:09 PM »
A motor conversion is very easy and not expensive.


Best of luck!

G-

« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 01:23:09 PM by ghurd »
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keithturtle

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2006, 10:00:50 PM »
There's lots to be said for the Savonius design if you're in a moderately strong wind regime.   Velocities below 7 m/s will be very disappointing.


The sav rotor is a drag machine, which is fine for producing the torque necessary for lifting water.   High speed wind turbines (lift machines) will create electricity but not provide the torque for direct mechamical pumping.


The is another option: Air lift.


Use a drag machine to compress air and send it down the well to an air powered pump.   If your TDH is less than 20 ft this is probably your most flexible option.


TDH= total dynamic head in feet


See a drag machine here http://www.windmillaeration.com/


Keith

« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 10:00:50 PM by keithturtle »
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erne

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2006, 06:17:06 AM »
Hi manuel;

You would get more power out of a multi blade mill like a aeromotor. Your drifrencial on edge like that will have oiling problems and leak out the vent. If you turn it, it would do better. You will also have to use a break on the output side of either the pump or the gen to make the other work. You would be better off to block the lower axle and run the pump off the original input shaft. You could build a cylinder pump out of pipe with a foot valce and move more water. All you would need is a stroke arm out from the generator. In order yo make the drawing in your post you would have to weld the spider gears .--erne ypu can look at a mill in my photos. It has a difrential in it.--erne
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 06:17:06 AM by erne »

thefinis

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2006, 07:48:29 AM »
Sorry for the long post but wasn't sure how much info would be needed on building different types of pumps.


I would go with an s rotor or Savonious for my turbine and probably the rope pump for starters. Two posts set in the ground with cross braces top and bottom for the bearings for the S rotor. 1 or 2 layers with 3 half barrels per layer if trying to keep it short. 3 layers of 2 half barrels per layer overlapped by 25-50% if height isn't a problem(about 3 meters tall). You can cut circles out of plywood for mounting or use whatever works for base and top (unless you plan on using the edge of a circle of plywood for a drive surface). It just needs to be something the half barrels and bearings or shafts can mount to(from my experience I would use a pipe down the middle for a shaft both for pto and to align bearings. For low tech try using wood blocks soaked/boiled in used motor oil with proper size hole drilled out first. Put a rock on it so it will not float while soaking/cooking. I would cut it in half using bolts to hold it together so you can adjust the fit and pack it with grease. Stack several large washers greased up between the bottom bearing and the turbine. I have seen old ag bearings made this way that and they work better than you can believe at low rpms.


For the pump part I went looking and here is what I find.


The air pump will not work unless there is enough water depth. To use air bubbling in the pipe for lift you need almost as much depth in standing water as you are trying to lift. To lift water 3 meters you need 2 or 3 meters of pipe in the ground with water in it. I don't know how much water this makes but 1000 liters in three days isn't much. Use 3/4 or 1" pipe(2 to 2 1/2 cm) for the water riser pipe and use 1/2(1 1/2 cm) or smaller for the air line flexable tubing will work. It needs to vent inside of the water pipe about 6" (15cm) above the bottom. This maybe a good option for later and should probably be used with a hawt as the prop makes the rpms needed to run the air compressor.


A piston pump might work best. Use a disk attached to a shaft from the bottom. Make an offset pivot point (like the old steam trains) Use flexable tubing for next joint just before entering pump. Pipe or rod must fit snug to reduce water loss or have packing, if pipe is used it must be plugged. A rubber flap for a check valve for incoming water and a marble or something like it for a check valve for the outgoing water(this only works if this pipe is pointed up).




With the offset pulleys and twisted belt it changes the plane of rotation and the rope pump can be driven from it. You could also run the edge of a plywood circle on an other wheel but you might need to cover the edge with rubber or something for traction.


A windmill type pump could be used with setup too. It is just a variation of the other piston pump. It is one pipe with a flap or ball check valve in the bottom. A snug or tight fitting pipe that slides inside with a ball check in the bottom of that pipe. The inside pipe carries the water in this version with an elbow at the top leading to the tank. The larger pipe can be capped at the bottom and a suitable hole drilled for the ball or the flap to seat on. The smaller pipe that moves should have an even smaller piece of pipe glued into it and a marble or ball that rolls easy in the moving pipe but will not go into the smaller piece. This setup would need to have several feet of smaller pvc pipe above the larger pipe so that it can flex and will need an outside clamp on the movable pipe or some suitable arrangement.




A gear pump or other postive displacement pump that gives the needed output at low rpms could be used too but would need to work with water ie not corrode. For this you would need to check locally.


All pipe and pump parts need to be plastic or glass or nonrustable. Your storage tank needs a filter before going into the drip lines. Are you using above ground lines? drip or soaker lines? If your water is alkali then vinegar and and ammonia(not sudsy needs to be just ammonia) can be run diluted into the lines to help clean them. The vinegar will help with ph and the ammonia is fertlizer.


Okay now we get to see if I can post pics.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 07:48:29 AM by thefinis »

erne

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2006, 08:21:30 AM »
Here is a water pumper built like a wind cup type guage. It runs about 10 rpm and takes very little wind to move at 2 0r so rpm's It belongs to my neighbor and runs on a cable to pump warer. It has a of set pulley



« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 08:21:30 AM by erne »

miglesia

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2006, 12:39:38 PM »
Well, I'm impressed, now I'll study and digest all the info.

Some of the posts are very similar to what I was thinking (I'm looking for durability rather than efficiency, using parts of old cars or similar for strength and low cost).


Thank you for everyone of you.


Manuel

« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 12:39:38 PM by miglesia »

miglesia

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2006, 01:17:09 PM »
I have not so much depth for the air pump, but think the rope pump will suit.

I'll use above ground and drip lines, also made by me, but that's another story.

Now I'd like to build the mill we where talking about, then a barn, and then (when will I can? :) substitute the windmill for an aeromotor (make in the barn), maybe something like this (or a multiblade, but in my DIY bible of books :) says the traditional blades are better for more than 4 meters of diameter, what do you think?):





At the bottom of the tower there is a gearbox (for raising rpm's and obtain multiple speeds, they use an old and light one, so easy to move by the rotor) and all the machines you can connect (saw, generator...)


This is part of the setup they propose:





Another truck axle in the play, but that are only my dreams...


Thanks

Manuel

« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 01:17:09 PM by miglesia »

miglesia

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2006, 01:01:04 AM »
Well, an electric device is in danger over there, everything that looks interesting will be stolen, so a rope pump or something similar (strange) is safer...


Is really difficult to build a rope pump or a wheel pump? could you give me some ad about it?


Thanks

Manuel

« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 01:01:04 AM by miglesia »

Countryboy

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2006, 11:03:29 PM »
Hello Manual,

  You may want to look at this site.  It has several windmills for water pumping.

http://www.southcom.com.au/~windmill/
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 11:03:29 PM by Countryboy »

thirteen

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Re: Introduction and question about water pump
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2006, 11:31:44 AM »
the cups that are now use to catch the wind could be used to store some water or used as raised garden beds if you change to reg blads You may like to have a storage tank for the days the wind doesn't blow you could use a light duty oil to help with the bearings.  If you make an offset on a wheel that would work as a cam then use a old style pump you could pump alot of water depending upon the wind speed You would use it  where you have the gen mounted  it would work until you make a gen.  
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 11:31:44 AM by thirteen »
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