Author Topic: creek water for domestic use (Read 10244 times)

scesnick · « **on:** June 10, 2007, 04:07:20 PM »

I asked this question a few months back but now have a gameplan for doing this that i would like toy run by you guys first.

to recap, I live on top of a mountian on a farm and I have really crappy high iron content in my 5 year old well. I also have a VERY clean creek that originates on my property that is about 500ft from my house. My wife is sick of the iron water and it is time to do something about it. i think drilling another well would just produce another high iron content well. I understand the whole aspect of contaminated water and all that but i have no livestock on my farm and the creek originates right on the property and gains volume the futher down stream it goes. This creek was used for years by the town down in the valley as their primary water source.

here is my plan and please, feel free to pick it apart and suggest things. I am by no means a pro and really have never done anything like this before. I also have very thick skin so you will not offend me.

I plan on building a small dam and putting a pipe in the dam and then piping that water about 300 ft down stream ( closer to my house ) to a buried septic tank ( new of course. lol) allowing for the overflow to run back into the creek.

I then want to put a pump inside the tank and pump the IRONLESS water to my house where it would run into the $4,000 filtering system i bought that is useless against my iron well water but should do very well with the creek water.

My biggest questions are: will this work, and what size pump would do the job?

the tank will be about 300 ft from my house and my house sits about 75ft. higher than the tank .

jimovonz · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2007, 01:13:26 PM »

scesnick, many folk take water for domestic use from the ground or just below here in NZ. The main concern for this water is the level of faecal coliforms. Small animals might also die in or near the creek. Hopefully your $4000 filter is at least 0.45micron.

Obviously an intake screen is necessary in a creek. There are many hydro examples around. I can get a picture of mine made from PVC pipe if you would like.

I don't know what your septic tanks are like where you are but the ones commonly used here in NZ require a bit of work to make them water tight. Because they are used with a leach field anyway, its not of much concern if they leak into the ground. I did seal mine because I had thoughts at the time of using it for methane production. I simply plastered up all the holes and painted it with tank sealant (I also insulated it with polystyrene and pumice).

I don't think you need to go to the trouble of installing an overflow all the way back to the creek. A ballcock on the tank will keep it full and stop any overflow.

In an ideal system your tank would be higher than the house so that you didn't need to pump it (maybe a small inline pressure pump). My house uses an 800l header tank in the roof space and doesn't need a pump - though I did use over sized plumbing to compensate and it did cause some trouble with the califont when the solar heated water was in the 30-40degC range).

I'm sure that if its set up properly, it will all work fine!

vawtman · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2007, 01:27:10 PM »

Hi scesnick

What company made the $4000 filtering system that is useless for removing iron from water?

Is the water discolored right from the tap?

Maybe you could raise the pump higher in the well.

Take this with a grain of salt though.

scesnick · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2007, 02:12:45 PM »

Well, first i had a rainsoft system ( $2,600 ) and it worked for about 2 months then it would not re generate itself ( clean itself) Then I got sick of paying rainsoft to come and fix the piece of junk so I went with one online and it actually worked for about 2 years. I think i just simply have too much iron in the well water and it overwhelms these filters after a while.

And yes, the water is crappy right from the tap. Unless we don't use any water for a few days then it is O.K. for about 2-3 showers then it is crappy once again.

Could you explain raising the well pump a little more? You peaked my interest...

scesnick · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2007, 02:14:22 PM »

jimovonz,

I would love to see the pics of your system. A picture is worth a thousand words !!

vawtman · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2007, 02:45:25 PM »

Part of my job is to oversee the maintenance on a large municipal indoor pool.The wells have high mineral content.When the thing is drained and refilled with so called city water you can hardly see the bottom.The utilities think its coming from the river.Its not obviously.

After a few hours things start settling and the whole bottom becomes covered with deposites and once the diatomacous earth filter system is started and running a couple days and the bottom cleaned its perfect.The filter grids turn dark brown.

Im no well expert but thought this could be happening with your well.The stuff is almost like dust in air and migrates easily along the bottom.

Maybe others have more experience with wells but seems practical to me.

Mark

luckeydog · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2007, 02:53:26 PM »

My father has run into the same problem you are describing.

His solution was to dig a pit 12 feet deep 20 feet from the creek.

then he installed a 36" tube with holes in it and filled around the tube

with rock pea gravel and sand about 10 feet out from the pipe.

and installed a pump inside the tube. this has worked very well for about 12 years now.

the filter system has a UV filter on it along with filters ranging from 2 micron to .5 micron.

just a suggestion.

luckeydog

scottsAI · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2007, 04:47:36 PM »

Hello scesnick,

My water started out at 3-4ppm, 10 years later 7ppm.

First water softener: middle road Kenmore $350 in 1986 working find when I sold it.

After 10 years replaced with High end Kenmore rated for 8ppm Iron, $650 1997.

Another 5 years, iron peaked out at 7-8ppm most of the year, spring time 9-10ppm.

Softener needed some help. Added $700 Kenmore Iron Filter. POS.

Not in use at this time.

If you have a tank for the well water, by bubbling air into it will cause the iron to come out and settle too bottom of tank. Yes, that easy!

The water tank needs to hold the water for 30 minutes or more for the chemistry to happen.

When it comes to YOUR water it pays to learn as much BEFORE you get started to prevent expensive errors. Several other options for iron removal.

Have fun,

Scott.

scesnick · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2007, 05:05:59 PM »

So, If i just simply get say a 500 gallon tank in my basement and fill it with well water and let it settle i could just simply drain off the iron from the bottom once the water settles?

stephent · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2007, 05:21:38 PM »

How much drop from where you plan to build the dam to somewhere lower on your place?

If any appreciable drop is there, it's entirely possible to use a ram type pump and have the water pressurized all the way into your filter system.

After making sure of water "drinkability" of course.

scesnick · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2007, 05:23:55 PM »

I have about 50 ft of head from the dam to my future micro hydro site ( which is closest to my house that the stream runs) unfortunately, my house is about 75ft higher than the stream.

mkseps · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2007, 05:41:50 PM »

I suggest that you do a google search for "IRON WATER CONTROL"

The first item you come across gives you a good idea about what you are up against and the possible cures. You may be having other issues to be addressed in the control of the water. Injecting air through the water is a good idea. There are windmills that pump air for pond water control that could be brought into play here. As for the septic tank idea, I would suggest that you use the large plastic tanks normally marketed at well stocked farm store.

Gene

stephent · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2007, 06:16:51 PM »

Well, 50 foot of head will pump "some" water up that 75 foot to your house.

A ram pump is very capable of lifting "some" water up 75 foot.

Some depends on pump/pipe size (in and out) design and flow of water available.

And once it's running and tuned a bit, it's fairly foolproof and runs very cheaply.

jimjjnn · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2007, 09:17:02 PM »

When I went to camp as a kid, we had a well 20 feet from a very small stream and water was filtered through the ground from the stream to the well. We had an old displacement pump that pumped 300 feet uphill to our cabin.

Provided more than enough water for all of us. Water was stored in a 500 gallon tank on a 20 foot tower. Not much pressure but with large pipes we could take hot showers with plenty of flow. Water was heated by pipes zigzaged across the back of an old wood stove in the kitchen. Only had to run the pump once a week.

Went up last year to see if it was still there and sue enuff. The new owner said he still uses the same system but put in new more efficient stove that heats water faster. Said he rebuilt the same old pump by the creek and still works fine. He dug the well 5 feet deeper so he could water his garden. Says he runs pump twice a week as he uses more water for garden

jimovonz · « **Reply #14 on:** June 10, 2007, 09:49:14 PM »

I though I had pics somewhere but unfortunately I don't. However - even though its raining today, I went up ad took some. Rather than flood your post with lots of pics, I put them in a diary here: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/6/11/34653/1661

Nando · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2007, 10:01:22 PM »

There is a solution for your water to fill the tank in the house or even higher.

Can you measure the water volume ?.

You can use a RAM PUMP by the creek and fill the pipe and, as well, fill the tank above your house.

You do not need a tank if the stream runs continuously, if not then there are other tricks to make work and YOU DO NOT NEED ELECTRICITY and works day and night.

I have RAM PUMP designs that you could build yourself

To make sure what you want to do, including the hydro, please do detail all the aspects of both systems.

You can connect directly with me, correct my anti spam setting in my email address.

Nando

tecker · « **Reply #16 on:** June 10, 2007, 10:02:38 PM »

I also have been wanting to use creek water .But for a garden and growing Genseng stand . It smells so even though I 'm gardening with it I 'm tring to set up a pool filter sort of thing to treat the water . I'm bringing it up 300 feet from the creek bottom with air so after I jet it into a drum let it sit for a time and filter through a sand drum and a checkit .

jimovonz · « **Reply #17 on:** June 10, 2007, 10:05:08 PM »

I would recomend anyone who has a suitable site to investigate the use of ram pumps. I have made three for my own use and 4 more for other folk using simple plumbing parts. The largest and oldest is still going strong after about 2.5 years. I have replaced the main brass 'clack' valve (modified check valve) with a heavy duty bronze/stainless version because the old one was showing signs of wear. I have not done a propper post on it but there are some pics/details here: http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2005/6/21/152654/398/5

scottsAI · « **Reply #18 on:** June 10, 2007, 11:51:21 PM »

Hello scesnick,

YES.

Works better if you bubble air. The iron becomes Iron oxide, is now something your softener can handle as a filter. Here is the first example I found:

http://www.watervalue.com/terminator/t1000.html

My softener hardness setting is 25, due to the iron I must have it set for 65.

Regens every other day. With iron filter it would go days...

Have fun,

Scott.

scesnick · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2007, 05:54:42 AM »

I have tried the fleck control filtering system already. i have also tried the brine and salt. Then i tried the latest and greatest thing called Pyrolox. I also have a 10" inline replaceable filter and a chemical pump that pumps chlorine into the water to raise the P/h so the filters work better. This all works in conjunction with each other, well atleast it is supposed to. What i am getting at here is that I have tried just about evey filtering process there is and the ALL eventually fail.

I could drill a new well for about $6,000 but that would not guarantee me good water from the new well. The only way I see where I can have Guaranteed clean water would be by using the creek.

Thnaks for all the suggestions. Keep them coming !!!!

wdyasq · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2007, 09:21:51 AM »

Roof catchment system .... It works in areas with no ground water and low rainfall. Rain water is as iron free as it gets. You did not ask for this method but it is one solution to the problem of 'bad ground water'.

I always enjoy the folks who say 'think outside the box'. Many are the same ones who never have looked inside the box to see what tools are there.

Ron

thefinis · « **Reply #21 on:** June 11, 2007, 11:13:30 AM »

Not sure why you have tried so hard and long with the iron water if you have good water close by. I side with your wife some water is not fit for household use. If it was all you had then the settling and air bubbles would help.

I agree with Ron on the rain system. A rain water system should work which would require guttering of a large roof area, large holding tanks(5000+ gallons), some monitoring/sampling and a pressure system. How well this works and how much holding capacity depends on rain and household usage but it is the best water. This system tends to catch more water than most folks would expect and works well for household use not yard use. Summer time use usually requires some chlorination especially if tanks are in the sunshine. You already have the filter system and may have an ozonation unit.

If the creek is good water go with your plan and pipe it to a holding tank with a float. No need to bury the tank unless it is to get the water to flow or keep it from freezing. Buried tanks run the risk of contamination in heavy rains so if you bury it avoid runoff influx also your intake at the dam may get muddy water etc during rain events. A cheap swimming pool kit and a little practice and you can keep the water chlorinated at 0.3-0.5 mg/l or use one of the small swimming pool systems that chlorinates as water is pumped(pressure pump for house) and set it for the amount of chlorination wanted. With your filter system you may have an ozonation unit which should replace the chlorine. The folks I know that use the ozonation systems tend to chlorinate every month or two to keep the lines clean as the ozone system has no residual.

Last suggestion is drill a shallow well by the spring where the creek starts and put pump there and just pipe it to the house. IF the well driller is worth his salt then he should be able to tell where to drill to hit the spring. This may be the best plan but requires extra drilling and electric lines. Electric company should set meter for pump and if some of the water is for farm use it may be a tax write off.

Good luck

Finis

Nando · « **Reply #22 on:** June 11, 2007, 01:54:07 PM »

Jimovonz:

Can you be more specific about the "heavy duty bronze/stainless " valve ?.

I would like to know the availability and the source for it, if possible.

Thanks

Nando

jimovonz · « **Reply #23 on:** June 11, 2007, 02:13:07 PM »

I get the valves from a local valve specialist company. I forget the proper name for them. I originally used the stndard type brass spring check valve, removing the spring and using them in reverse. The valve on the pump I refer to was showing significant wear where the moving parts contact. The replacement valve is heavy duty in comparison having a body made from bronze with stainless steel inserts. It required no modification for use as a clack valve. The new valve operates somewhat differently and does not have a spring. One significant advantage I have found with the new valves is that although the moving piece is stainless, it is a grade that retains a degree of magnetism. By placing a magnet on the outside of the housing and using shims to set the spacing, I can retard the closing movement and thereby regulate the pulsing of the valve. This has allowed me to optimise the system and also to use different shims to suit the varying flow from the source. I will stop into the company I got the valve form and ask its proper name and world wide availablility. I will also get some photos if I get time.

scesnick · « **Reply #24 on:** June 11, 2007, 04:20:56 PM »

thefinis,

Well, You are right i should not have waited so long but it is quite a digging event to run the trench all the way to the proposed area for the tank. Also, to be honest we never thought about it until recently. i just asumed the creek was of poor quality also but it is very clean.

A new well down by where the creek originates is out of the question. it is tough enough just to walk back there. Thanks for the ideas...

jimovonz · « **Reply #25 on:** June 11, 2007, 08:22:06 PM »

Nando I have posted a diary entry here containing information about this valve.

GaryGary · « **Reply #26 on:** June 11, 2007, 09:52:10 PM »

Hi,

I think your plan will work.

We used to live on Vashon Island. The house water supply was a small creek that originated a couple hundred feet above the house as some springs coming out of a steep bank. This was our water supply, and it also supplied water via a pipe line to several houses below us.

The water from the springs/creek was collected in a concrete tank, and the pipes to the houses came off of the tank.

The county did not like the idea of the water being picked up after it seeped out of the bank because of the potential for contamination, and eventually we drove well points into the bank and piped the output from these to the concrete tank. It does not take very much flow at all to supply a house when the incoming flow to the tank runs 24/7.

We had no trouble with either system -- the water always tested clean.

Our house was about 20 vertical feet below the concrete tank, and we just used gravity feed to supply the house plumbing -- no pumps at all. 20 vertical feet only gives about 9 psi, but as long as you run full diameter pipes right to the point of use, thats plenty of pressure, and it eliminates any need for a pump or pressure tank.

Gary

Nando · « **Reply #27 on:** June 11, 2007, 10:08:36 PM »

Jimovonz:

I really appreciate the information, as well as, the people I assist in many countries will appreciate your help.

The ram pumps is one low cost item that needs attention in the undeveloped rural areas of many countries.

Nando

jimovonz · « **Reply #28 on:** June 12, 2007, 12:17:14 AM »

Happy to help Nando. Please let me know if you do end up using one. This was the 1st one I ever placed in a permanent installation (I made a small one previous that ran down the bank off the garden hose!). I totally agree that the ram pump is under-utilised. I was astounded at how simple and cheap it was to construct and also at how effective it is. The latest ones I've made use a simple section of rubber pipe in place of the expansion tank which seems to work just as well and would be much more suited cost/availability wise to undeveloped rural areas (the high pressure PVC fittings were the most expensive part of this pump). I'm not sure on the long term reliability of the rubber pipe especially as it jumps around a bit as it expands and contracts. The price is right so as long as spares are on hand and someone is there to replace it it shouldn't be an issue.

thefinis · « **Reply #29 on:** June 12, 2007, 06:06:17 AM »

Ahh it makes more sense when you thought it was the only kind of water you could get.

They make a 2 inch plastic pipe in rolls that the oil field uses that can be laid on the ground unless freezing would plug it in the winter. It is expensive but might be cheaper than trenching if you can use it. I don't have that much experience with really cold weather so not sure if there would be enough flow for a 500 ft run to keep it open in winter. The ram pump hydro guys will know and may have suggestions on what size line.

Here is a link to a site with several different water powered water pumps.

http://lurkertech.com/chris/eco/

Good luck

Finis

thefinis · « **Reply #30 on:** June 12, 2007, 06:22:53 AM »

Is there any experience with the spiral pumps? They look neat for river use but I have never seen one working.

http://lurkertech.com/chris/eco/

Thanks

Finis

scesnick · « **Reply #31 on:** June 12, 2007, 06:56:50 AM »

thefinis,

The trenching is just a time consuming event. I own my own backhoe so not much expense there. Yeah I have to trench it for sure. it gets quite cold up here on the mountain but for some reason the creek never fully freezes, just a thin crust right on the top when it is really cold out.

Thanks for the link for the pumps. I will have to study the whole pump thing to find the right one for this application.

threearrows · « **Reply #32 on:** June 12, 2007, 05:21:04 PM »

Hello scesnick,

It sounds that your blessed with water options! In Canberra, Australia we're not so lucky with average rainfall of 650mm down to 400mm in dry years. If the creek runs continously then I'd be tempted to use this a your main water source, keeping the ground water as a backup.

Many people in AUS oxygenate bore or dam water to dissipate ionic iron for use on gardens and non-drinking applications with good affect. Everyone in my area collects rainwater from house and shed roofs, storing water in large plastic or concrete tanks. For my house we have a 20,000 gallon concrete tank with a pressure pump supplying the house. Our roof collection is approximately 330 metres square. The size of the water tank is dependant on your annual rainfall, frequency of rainfall, collection area and water usage requirements.

The downside to rainwater collection is that you need to have gutters, piping to your water tank and a pressure pump. In addition, the gutters need to be cleaned of leaves, dust/dirt and who knows what else! A water divertor is a great idea where the first 70 litres of water is not put into the tank. The storage of rainwater in a sealed, light free tank needs no special treatment for use, however I'd still recommend using a fine filter as a safeguard.

Thanks for sharing water ideas!

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Author Topic: creek water for domestic use (Read 10244 times)