Author Topic: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents  (Read 21991 times)

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CmeBREW

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My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« on: July 08, 2009, 03:25:07 AM »
Hello RE-friends,


     I finally talked my dad into allowing me to put a fairly simple Solar Hot Water heating system in the basement of their house.  I have been wanting to for years, but only after seeing Gary's (Builditsolar.com) Full-house system, did I see how I could do it cheaply. (Thanks Gary)


I, of course, had to stretch the truth almost beyond belief for my father to let me do it.

He is the same as 99.9 percent of the population who wants EVERYTHING (energy) for NOTHING! (pennies)


He said "NO WAY" to the $1000 system --  So I offered a smaller $400 system -- He said "Sorry, can't afford that either" -- So since I KNOW my dad the way he is, my final offer was $50 (Yes,fifty messly dollars!) and I said it would pay for itself in the FIRST MONTH!! Amazing!


(And that I would pay for any little incidentals myself-- that he could pay me back little by little when he sees the savings on the electric bill- he-he)


Finally, his eyes lit up for the first time, and allowed me to make this Basic (About $300 actual cost) system in his basement utility room and back yard.  The photo below is my parent's back yard showing the Solar collector. (6.5 feet by almost 3 feet wide)


It may not be among the best, but it is all I can afford now, and will improve on it over the following weeks. But it has been A LOT of FUN!!








The collector uses 1/2" pex tubing and is on an axis between the posts cemented in the ground, so it is easily adjusted to any angle.  Just tightening a 1/2" wingnut holds the angle in place good enough.




You can't see it from the photo, but there are two pieces of angle iron I cut mounted to the top of the posts, and I drilled a 1/2" hole thru the steel so that the collector mounts to it with 1/2" bolts.


I have yet to buy or make the aluminum 'concentrators' to clip the pex into to get hotter, more efficiently.  I could not find any at 'Menards' or 'Lowes'. I guess I will have to make them myself as Gary showed with a pipe and jig.


Nevertheless, just with the Pex tubing (40-50') laying in the collector on the black sheet metal, it heats the constantly circulating water quite good, but their is a LOT of condensation on the pex and the inside of the collector. (which is not good)


I wonder if the aluminum 'concentrators' will eliminate this problem?? I do not know.

I will do it soon though, since I want even quicker heat accumulation.


I made the collector simply from 6" wide treated decking boards, and ripped off an inch to serve as the cleats to screw the 26 gauge sheet metal too and to fit the insulation board up against in the back side.


 





Here is a mistake I made putting typical pink fiberglass insulation on the inner most area -- since I could not find any of the high temp insulation board at any of the major stores.  The outside insulation board is the lower temp common poly-foam board.  

At the store this was confusing me and most all the workers there. They did have something with a foil skin type insulation board that MAY be better for higher temps, so I will replace the pink fiberglass inner insulation (which is actually soaking up water from condensation) with the foil board soon. But I will keep the common poly-foam board on the outside as is -- which will equal about 2" inches of insulation on the back side. (about R7 total I think-- which is good)






I used some extra sheet metal pieces I had left over to hold the insulation board on.

By the way, I used my jig saw and a metal cutting blade to cut the 26 gauge sheet metal to size.  I got it from a Heating and Air conditioning guy for 20 bucks. (3x8 feet piece)  

ALWAYS wear eye glasses and ear muffs to do this though, since sharp little pieces go flying up toward your face.  Tin snips would probably work too, but be more difficult.

The inside is painted flat back, and of course, use silicon caulk to seal around the glass.  The groove in the wood sides allows a little expansion and contraction for the glass.


My idea of using a PLASTIC 55 gallon drum as a Hot water pre-heater tank seems to be working really good.  The tank is actually more sturdy than I thought it would be.

I get these nice plastic drums for FREE from my brother.  They use to be filled with dialisis fluid (??) for medical purposes.  It smells like vinigar, so it was easy and quick to clean out with a little bleach.


I cut out a little square on the top to put in the 250' feet of 3/4" PEX TUBING as a nice Heat exchanger which is directly hooked to the high pressure 50lb house hot water plumbing.


Here is a close up photo of the pex in the tank.  It does not layed perfectly, but this fact may even make it better for heat exchange.



This bigger 250 feet (3/4") PEX tubing was the most expensive component of the system. I got mine for $120 bucks at Menards super store.  The 100' feet of 1/2" PEX tubing for the collector and the lines to the tank in the basement cost only $25 bucks.  The two special copper (or brass) fittings required to hook up the PEX to the normal CPVC (plactic) house plumbing, costed me $6 bucks each.


The easiest way I found to coil the PEX tubing into the plastic drum requires TWO persons. First, the entire 250' feet section needs to be UNWOUND out into your yard the whole distance.  

Then, one person keeps turning the plastic barrel WHILE you carefully fold the PEX tubing into the drum, without kinking it.  This only took my father and me about 15 minutes to put the PEX in.

It is actually quite firm stuff-- so kinking it would be difficult to do unless you really pull the heck out of it HARD.


Be extra careful when it comes to putting the PEX up thru the two holes in the drum.

Make sure you allow at least 6 feet extra sticking out of the drum for plumbing hook up.  

This was another one of my mistakes.  I only had about 3 feet extra and when it came time to plumb it in, I yanked and pulled forcefully on the Pex to get more slack to come out and actually KINKED one side unknowingly.


After It was all hooked up to the plumbing, It took me HOURS to figure out why the pressure was very low. I thought it was the shut-off valves but it wasn't.


Anyway, after much stress, I found the problem and put in a brass 'straight' adapter fitting using a PEX TOOL I borrowed from the local hardware store (for free) , using two stainless steel crimp rings for PEX tubing.  That part was very easy to do.

Here is the tool.  Make CERTAIN you use this proper tool and NOT just try to use typical hose clamps.  NO silicon caulk is required here.


 






I tied the yellow nylon rope around the drum for extra strengh especially when hot.

May not even need it-- not sure yet.  The 6' piece of steel I bought for this purpose, wound up not being Long enough to go all the way around the drum by 6 inches!!  arg. (Thats when I thought up the rope idea)


The pack of R13 insulation worked beautifully. One roll was only $9 bucks and I had 8 feet left over.  It has plastic all the way around the fiberglass insulation, which makes it very nice.  I think I am also going to put this around the electric HWH in the photo.  Duct tape sticks to it very well and holds it good.







I have yet to put the 2" of extra foam insulation board on the top of the tank.  I am waiting for my new little CPU 14 watt mini-water pump ($15) to arrive tomorrow.


Right now, I am using a smaller 6 Watt mini-water pump but it is not strong enough and does not prime the line by itself , which is a pain to have to BLAST the siphon hose inside the tank with a 50lb pressurized garden hose to get the air out of the lines.  Then it runs by itself.


 The new pump should push the water up the 10' high line going up and outside to the collector, so it will be like Gary's system and self drain and self prime itself.  

The mini-pump is controlled by a simple mechanical thermostat ($12) in the solar collector.  

Since my parents don't have a Renewable electric system, I just use a 2 amp 'wall wart' 12v transformer to run the 12v pump.


The following is the simple plumbing hook up to the house hot water line that goes into the electric hot water tank.


I can bypass the pre-heater for maintainence if I wish.  There are TWO shut-off valves in the middle there because the 'ball' type was already there, and I don't like those type. They seem to always leak for me.  And a leak there could be very bad since it may equalize the 50 lb pressure and no water would flow around and thru the pre-heater!  The water flow could get stuck.  So that is why I put the other Shut-off valve in.  You MAY only need one there--not sure.


Today was the first day everything was working, and it was exciting I must say.

It got up to 101F degrees in the tank and the exchanger line out looked to be the same temp flowing into the electric HWT.

Then my mother turned on the dreaded Dish washer machine.  And wow, over the 20 minute cycle, the temp dropped all the way to 86F degrees!


Boy, do I hate that washing machine now!  It seems to be equal to 3 showers and a clothes washing!!


Anyway, I will keep doing some tests over the next days/weeks, and post results here.


It has been much fun and now My dad (and mom and many others) are believers now!


-Any comments or questions most welcome.


P.S. I am not a real plumber by any means , and this project is a personal experiment for me and my family.  I can't quarantee anything!!

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 03:25:07 AM by (unknown) »

Shadow

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 10:55:42 PM »
I say Great Job!

    Thats something I've been going to try for a long time. So now I got yours to study and steal.. er borrow some ideas. When we built our house I bought a 1,000 foot roll of pex so I have lots left over.And I've acquired 2 sets of old patio doors. So no excuse now.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 10:55:42 PM by Shadow »

electronbaby

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 09:17:16 AM »
Do you have any fear of chemicals leaching out of the polyethylene drum under high temperature conditions?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:17:16 AM by electronbaby »
Have Fun!!!  RoyR KB2UHF

ghurd

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 09:40:24 AM »
Cool!

Do you plan on insulating the top of the drum?

Have a link for the 14 watt pump?


Nice they did not make you buy that pex tool.

G-

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:40:24 AM by ghurd »
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spinningmagnets

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 11:31:08 AM »
Great project ! perhaps consider using 90-degree bulkhead fittings on the next build? (tried to upload jpeg, got a red X)


http://www.diesel-max.com/my_files/images/bulkhead_fitting_2.jpg

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 11:31:08 AM by spinningmagnets »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 04:04:48 PM »
Thanks Electronbaby,


     I really don't know much about chemical reactions and such with this plastic tank.  But I don't worry about it since the water in the PEX exchanger tubing is completely isolated from the water in the tank.


And I read that PEX tubing does not corrode and resists chemicals, pinholes, etc, etc... here:


  http://www.pexinfo.com/


I also put a couple of tablespoons of bleach in the tank water to prevent bacteria and off smells.  I actually accidently swallowed some of the tank water yesterday while siphoning off some of the water in the tank, and it didn't make me sick or anything.  My eye twitched a bit through the day though.  But a million things in my life could've caused that.


The tank seems to be one solid mold, so I really think it will last myself. The plastic is 3/16" thick.


I doubt the tank will rarely ever get that hot anyway. Mamma is ALWAYS using plenty of HOT water for cleaning, cooking, washing, about every hour of the day!


By the time I woke up in the morning and went over there, they had already taken TWO showers and One clothes washing on the warm setting.  The Pre-heater was all the way down to only 75F degrees.  But this was actually MUCH less than the Dreaded Dish washer machine the night before.


It is funny, today I realized I can tell by looking at the Tank thermostat temperature gauge and determine if Mamma is working or resting.  (below 90F degree, mamma is working // Above 90F degrees Mamma is Resting)


But when I get the aluminum Pex tubing 'Concentrators' on, I'm certain the temps will go up much higher.  The way it is now the glass on the collector is very hot all the time losing most of the energy.  

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:04:48 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 06:41:38 PM »
Thanks Ghurd,


     Yes, I have the 2" insulation board ready for the Top.  


I am still waiting on my new 14 watt pump from Hong Kong to arrive. The first small pump only took about a week to get here.  Here is the first little 6  Watt pump which is Brushless and totally silent when running as you can see on my tank in the photo I showed:


http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-12V-mini-water-pump-best-for-PC-CPU-cooling-system_W0QQitemZ300279696684QQcmd
ZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45ea108d2c&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


This tiny 6w one will work for MY Solar Hot water heater system at my place. The lift required is only a couple feet. It can NOT pump water up 8 feet high (my parent's system) using 1/2" PEX tubing though.  However, I am changing the design of MY system to constantly run this tiny pump instead of trying to control the 65 Watt pump with a thermostat at my place.  I could never get the control to work consistently with the system at my place I showed a month ago in my Diary.


The 14 watt mini-pump is from the same place, but is taking a few more days to get here:


 http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-12V-mini-water-pump-centrifugal-pump-38-03_W0QQitemZ260439982385QQcmdZViewIte
mQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca36ec131&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2
%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50


It is usually just 'Buy it here now' for $15 bucks.  

Anyway, I think (hope) it will be enough power to push the water up 10 feet.


These tiny pumps are obviously lesser quality than the nice Swifttech MCP350 CPU pump

Gary suggested, but I was trying to cut costs.


However, I believe I am going to get a couple more of those quiet 6 watt mini-pumps for a project I intend to make for this coming winter for room heating with the same principle as the 55gal plastic drum.  (I have more)


But this time, the drum is in my bedroom (FULL of water of course) being used as a Tv stand or something,(no need for any insulation around it in this case) and I will install 1/2" Pex tubing in both of my Solar AIR heaters right outside my wall, and use them for a DUAL purpose.


 One, As Solar AIR heaters in the day, and secondly, to heat up the water in the 55 gallon drum to be utilized at nightime with a second mini pump and a 1/2" coil of PEX tubing in the DRUM as a heat exchanger in my bedroom.


Half of the 100' foot PEX tubing is in the tank as an Exchanger, and the other 50' comes out in my bedroom as a heat radiator and/or wound a couple of times between my mactrises on my bed for slow heat during sleep over the night.


Should be fun.   -Thanks.

 

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 06:41:38 PM by CmeBREW »

GaryGary

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 07:55:38 PM »
Hi,

Great job -- Very innovative -- I'm proud to have had a bit of a role in inspiring such such frugal thinking!


I think that adding the aluminum fins will help the output quite a bit, but it sounds like the hot water demand at your mom's house is fairly high, so, eventually some more collector area may be in order.  You could also consider eventually adding a 2nd barrel with more PEX in it in series with the first barrel?


The PEX will degrade if left in direct sun, so the aluminum fins and some paint on the area not covered by the fins will make the PEX last longer.  The glazing may also help protect the PEX by filtering some of the UV -- not really sure.


One thing you might want to keep an eye out for is the collector temperature.  The PEX will only take around 220 or 230F.  It will likely be well below that when the pump is on, but if the pump stops and its stagnated, and you have that shallow tilt angle, it will probably go over a temp that is safe for the PEX.


Clothes washing is one of the most hot water intensive activities.  The water heating for a full load of wash done with hot water can run 7 to 8 KWH, or 26,000 BTU -- if you took all of that energy out of the 50 gallon storage tank, it would lower its temp by 60F -- so its always going to be a big hit.  We don't use hot (or warm) water at all for clothes washing -- haven't for 20 years.


One way to look at the big drops in the tank temp is that the heat PEX coil heat exchanger is doing it job well, and you are successfully transferring the solar heat you collected to the incoming cold water.


I might have misread what you said about running the pump all the time, but you don't want to run the pump all the time -- it will cool the tank if left on during the evening.


Gary

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 07:55:38 PM by GaryGary »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 08:09:23 PM »
Thanks guys for the comments.


I forgot to mention a few simple things.  The cold water coming into the pre-heater is always 50F (10C) degrees.  This cold water comes from 160 ft under ground.  So to pre-heat it up to 80-90F is not a bad start I think.


Also, I meant to say that since I used the 250' of 3/4" Pex tubing as an heat exchanger, there is No noticable water pressure drop that I can see. Which is important.  If one were to use the smaller 1/2" Pex for the heat exchanger, it would most likely cause a noticable pressure drop.  I don't think I would use 300' of 1/2" Pex tubing for the exchanger for this reason.


I also don't think I would try to use 1" Pex tubing in this case since it would probably be too strong and difficult to fold into the plastic drum correctly. It might even be more prone to Kink since it is so difficult to bend and handle.

I think the 3/4" is just about right for this particular tank.


Also, when I talked about the KINK I got in the tank from pulling hard on it, I hope I made it clear that I did CUT OUT the part of the PEX tubing that had the KINK in it and then re-hooked up the pieces with the brass adapter and Pex tool.


Obviously, the Pex tool is also used for the main two hook up lines to the electric hot water tank as shown in the photo above.  (So I actually had to borrow the Pex tool from the hardware store TWICE!)  


So I am already pleased with the results. No matter what hot water useage goes on each day, there is always going to be some pre-heating savings. (Kilowatts per month)


The MINIMUM average temperature rise at this point is usually between 30-40 degrees preheating. Sometimes 50F.


Not bad for a start.  


I hope to increase this more over the coming week.  I will show progress here.


-Any more comments, questions, and info welcome.  

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 08:09:23 PM by CmeBREW »

mikeyny

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 08:20:05 PM »
 Hello,

     fantastic job. Now the problem is YOU ARE HOOKED!!!. You and your family will never be the same again. You will watch your hot water usage like never before. be carefull not to count the money you saved and spend it on something non RE. I had built some hot water solar collectors many yrs ago on a similar budget and was amazed. My post may still be in the archives here somewhere. prior to that I tried to save on hot water as much as I could. At the time my family was growing so I installed a solenoid valve from an old dishwasher on to the hot water line to the shower and controlled it with a 15 minute timer. I pegged the timer at 8 minute's. When 8 mins are up the hot water stops, yer done with that shower. The timer was in the kitchen so I could sit at the kitchen table and listen to it tic and then hear the snap  of the solenoid and then ' Whooo hooo". The sound of ice cold water hittin the head of a teenager. Oh what a sound. My kids hated me, But now some of them have the same set up in their own house. Keep up the good work.


                                        Mike

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 08:20:05 PM by mikeyny »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 09:34:22 PM »
Hey, thanks for the comment and info Gary -


   I had a couple of simple questions for you if it is possible.

The first is,  do you have a lot of condensation on your Pex tubing in your collector?  Because mine is terrible right now.  I know the treated lumber I used for the sides was quite wet, but it should be mostly dried out by now, and the Pex is still condensing a LOT of water.  Does the aluminum fins heat up the PEX skin enough so that the condensation is small??


I ask this question because I am wondering if It wouldn't be cheaper and easier to just add another 50' (total of 100') of Pex in the collector and simply paint over it with some of that PVC (plastic) spray paint (Krylon Plasticoat) to help protect from UV??


I don't mind the water dripping out of the collector cracks, but I worry about the water freezing around the PEX and other areas in the Winter and it would take Much longer to thaw this to begin heating??


Or maybe I should just make the aluminum 'Concentrator' fins out of 'aluminum flashing' like you did??   What do you think?  #1 or #2?


In the photo below I duct taped one of my thermostats to the OUT Pex line to watch the temps (and timing) going into the Electric HWH.  It is amazing. For about a minute and a half it is the same as the tank temp, then it drops a couple degrees but holds at that level for minutes more before slowly going down over more minutes.


It is very interesting stuff!    -Appreciate the help Gary. Neat system you got.




« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:34:22 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 09:45:33 PM »
I forgot this for Gary,


    Yes, I do not let the mini-pump run in the evenings or nightime.(What do you think-- I'm a Moron? Don't answer that! Ha)

 I unplug the 12v Wallwart in evening and then turn the pump back on at 9AM , until I get my new 14 Watt pump (hopefully tomorrow!) to then hook up the thermostat in the collector and finally make ALL things FULLY AUTOMATIC-- which will be nice!


-Thanks again.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:45:33 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 06:41:12 AM »
Thanks Mikeyny,


     Thats funny what you said, because that is exactly what is happening! In the morning yesterday I walked into their kitchen and saw the 'Darth Vadar' Dishwashing machine was on AGAIN and ranted to my Mother, "We just had that dang thing on last night, and now it is on again this morning!!"


But Momma let me really have it when she replied, "Do you want to do the dishes by hand young man!" (I'm 41 Y.O.) Ha


So that ended that Rant real quick. They said I'm really getting Fanatical about Hot water exactly like you said!


When they go visit my sister in another state for the weekend soon, I can see now that I'm going to have to make some 'design changes' to that piece of junk designed Kenmore dishwash in SECRET! (and never tell them-he-he)


I think it is the worst Hot water waster myself. It is ONLY hooked up to the HOT side (120F) of the plumbing directly and runs constantly for 30 minutes!


-Thanks for the experience.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 06:41:12 AM by CmeBREW »

GaryGary

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 07:14:47 AM »
Hi,

Not sure whats going with the condensation.  I don't ever see any water in the collector on mine, but I do live in a dry climate.  I've not heard any reports from others who have made the system of condensation.  

I don't think that is a good thing to have water in the collector over the long haul -- it will probably lead to problems eventually.  


I do include a small drain hole in the bottom of my collectors that is there mostly just to vent it to the outside.


If the water in the collector persists, I'd consider trying to figure out a way to get a small flow of air through the collector so that it dries out during the collection period.  


On the more PEX vs adding the aluminum fins, I think the fins would make it more efficient.  I think that with the PEX alone, the effective area of your absorber is not a lot more than the PEX area itself, where as when you add the fins to the PEX, it increases the effective area to the area fin itself.


When you see the temperature hold constant for quite a while at the start of the hot water draw, you are seeing the water that is already in the PEX coil that was already heated up to the full tank temp coming out -- this is the advantage of using a good sized coil of fairly large diameter pipe for the heat exchanger -- its 100% efficient until the water in the pipe coil itself empties out.


Have you thought about letting the local newspaper know you did this project?  I think they might be interested.


Gary

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 07:14:47 AM by GaryGary »

ghurd

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 08:07:33 AM »
I like the second tank idea.


When the tank is 101F, pumping 101F water into a 120F collector, will not be able to grab as many BTUs as when the water was 85F.


Cheap.  Maybe get a second tank and move 75' of the 250' into the 2nd tank?

The preheaters preheater?


Pex would hold about 7 quarts in 75' of 3/4".  The potable water would be in there long enough to take the chill off?


Second tank would reduce the chance of pumping 110F water through a 100F collector.


G-

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 08:07:33 AM by ghurd »
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DougArndt

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 09:53:51 AM »
Well done !!  


A couple of thoughts (thoughts, because i have no experience)


In reading Gary's site and related links, the idea of multiple tanks appeals to me. Mostly based on the comment that the cooler the water into the collector the greater the heat absorbed.  That of course leads one to draw the cooler water from the bottom of the tank and return it to the top, trying not to mix it.


Now, with that in mind, what if two (or more) tanks are in series, with just a simple siphon hose between each, then draw from the last tank in the series, and return to the first.  The cooler water from the first tank would siphon into the top of the second, etc.  Not until the entire first tank warms up will the next one start to, leaving the coldest water at the end of the series.  Then, instead of trying to warm up a large volume of water, the first tank (with the heat exchanger in it) will warm up faster, while the multiple tanks provide greater total storage and temp difference.  


Humm, thinking out loud now, I'm wondering if I'm missing something here, once the heat migrates into the next tank(s), how do we get it back, or use it.   I wasn't thinking of extending the heat exchanger coil into the secondary tanks, maybe one has to.


Now my brain hurts, have to think on this some more, still, I'll post it and see what others have to say.


My other thought had to do with the foil fins needed to attach to the collector piping.  I'm a Pepsi drinker and tend to collect a number of alum cans, the other day I cut the top and bottom off of one with a kitchen shear then wrapped it around a 1/2 copper pipe, just playing with it.  While you would need a bunch, it's light weight and if one made a simple brake to bend it, then staple a number of them in a straight line, insert the tube then pull each one tight around the tube and staple it. Same concept Gary uses, only with a number of pieces instead.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:53:51 AM by DougArndt »

spinningmagnets

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 01:03:41 PM »
DougArndt, I'd like to repond with some thoughts I hope will be helpful.


"...That of course leads one to draw the cooler water from the bottom of the tank and return it to the top, trying not to mix it..."


Two important aspects of heat-exchanger theory concerning transfer of heat is surface area between the two fluids and time allowed to exchange heat. Its true that there is a more rapid transfer of heat when there is a greater heat difference, but at the other end of the exchanger there is a small temp difference between the two (whether water/water, air/water, or air/air).


Ignoring compact coils and zig-zag configurations, for this discussion let us consider a water/water heat exchanger that is a 1" pipe inside a 2" pipe, with both being 40' long. The 2" pipe-ends have T's and then 2"-to-1" bell-fittings to choke the 1" pipe.


If both fluids enter from the same end, hottest and coldest trade heat rapidly, but at the other end, closer temps trade very little heat. It has been well-established that counter-flow HX's actually trade more total BTU's than like-direction flows. If cold and hot enter from opposite ends you will absorb more of the energy available.


A barrel of water thats not flowing will stratify (hot rises). I recall if I start a hot shower, I can use up the whole water heater if I dont change the flow till it runs out (30-min?).


Hot comes out the top while cold is coming in the bottom next to the burners. However, If I hand-wash dishes for 5 minutes with hot water, and then wait 10 minutes to shower, the cold water incoming to the water-heater will have time to mix, and the shower will only be warm at best.


One strategy is to mount an upside-down 30-gallon drum (with no lid) inside the 55-gallon drum that has the 4 connectors on the 55-gallon lid. Since we want there to be less emissive heat loss to the garage air due to a high temp-differential (even with insulation) the solar heat transfer water should be hottest in the center, with warm water in the outer shell.


So solar-collector water will enter the 55-Gallon drum in the center of the lid and flow to the bottom, and then it will make a U-turn and flow up the outer shell in a cylindrical shape. To be counter-flow, the 2 PEX tubing ports will flow in the opposite direction (coiling down the outer shell and coiling up the center). To increase HX area, the amount of PEX inside the drum should be as much as possible without resticting flow too much (15-gallons worth?)


To increase the hot water reserve, the outlet of the PEX tubing can enter a sealed container that is capable of holding city water pressure (60-PSI?). The purpose of the reserve is that one of the posters said they use so much they run the solar-heat empty sometimes.


Though both ports to the reserve should be in the lid with one feeding a pipe to the bottom (drum is open-center, no PEX), I don't think it matters much which one is the hottest as long as the outside of the reserve drum has EXTENSIVE insulation.


I haven't built one, this is just the results of my research for my retirement home.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:03:41 PM by spinningmagnets »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 08:10:50 PM »
Thanks Gary,


The severe condensation (big water drops all over the entire PEX tubing everywhere) is a puzzlement.  But there is very little condensation on the underside of the 1/8" tempered glass or on the super hot black sheet metal since it simply dries immediately when the many drops of water hit it.  I suppose the steam goes thru cracks and the wood??  I haven't even silicon caulked around the glass yet until I get everything right. But if I do, I bet the condensation on underside of the glass will block half the sun-- so I HAVE to reduce or eliminate it.  Strange thing is, the other two same size solar collectors I made exactly the same way as this one (decking boards), were and always are dry as a bone inside with NO condensation!  So it has to be the BLUE PEX I suspect and the big temp difference.


I wonder if it isn't because I used the BLUE PEX instead of the RED PEX like you used??  When I bought it, both colors said the same thing on the label that they are for Hot and cold.  I just thought the blue might soak up more sun?? After I got it home I THEN realized that BLUE must stands for 'Cold' and RED (even though it is more of a rusty redish color) stands for 'Hot' in plumbing jargon. It didn't even occur to me before. DAH!


Today, I drilled a little hole in the side of the collector to put my thermo-probe in to see what the temp in the collector is doing.  The Sun wasn't even full angle or full strength, yet it was going up to 170F (78C) degrees easy.  Even in over-cast this morning it was 120F.  So I am sure it will go a bit above 200F (93C) when I put the inner high temp insulation board back inside the collector.  But I suspect most of the energy is just going out the Glass because it is HOT.


So when there is only 80F warm water flowing thru the BLUE PEX , there is about a Hundred degree temp difference many times! Maybe that is the reason for the bad condensation??


I will figure it out soon enough I'm sure.

I was going to buy 100' of the RED PEX tubing anyway for my other system at my place, so I will do a little test to see if there is a difference. And I will try the aluminum fins.


"Have you thought about letting the local newspaper know you did this project?  I think they might be interested."


That sounds like a great idea! The local Township paper would be good.  I might just do that this Fall when I get everything done and wrap some Vinyl sheet around this collector to make it look alittle more Professional.  It also would be a good advertisment for Our Family Coffee business here I think and promote RE.


-Thanks for help, much appreciated.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 08:10:50 PM by CmeBREW »

GaryGary

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 09:02:45 PM »
Hi,

I was under the impression that the red and blue pex are the same except for the color -- just something to make it easier to tell cold and hot runs apart, but I may be wrong.

Anyway, would like to hear what you figure out on the condensation.


Gary

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:02:45 PM by GaryGary »

Vee24

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2009, 08:00:43 PM »
After you get the condensation and collector just like you want it, I'd then build one for the family business, and THEN call the newspaper to see the one at the business for free advertisement. I would also do as much insulation as possible, on the lines going to the collector to the heat exchanger too.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 08:00:43 PM by Vee24 »

rossw

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2009, 01:01:38 AM »


The cold water coming into the pre-heater is always 50F (10C) degrees.  This cold water comes from 160 ft under ground.  So to pre-heat it up to 80-90F is not a bad start I think.


I think that'll explain your condensation.


My guess will be that you have water over the PEX mostly at the "start" end, getting less as you get to the "hot" end.


10 degrees is pretty cool, and almost certainly well below the dewpoint of the "hot" air inside the box. Moisture in the air in the box will condense out on the cold pipe. Presto - water from nowhere.


Even at the hottest end, it's probably still below the air temperature, so depending on how humid the air in there is, it is still possible to get condensation on "warm" surfaces.


Did you remove all the (presumably waterlogged) insulation? That would continue to add moisture into the box until it finally dries out (if it ever does!)


Just for a giggle, I did some calcs for you, based on nominal air pressures.


If the air in your box is a mere 90 deg F and you have 50% RH, the dewpoint is 68F, so anything cooler than that you could expect water to condense on.


At even a relatively dry 20% RH, dewpoint is 43 deg F.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 01:01:38 AM by rossw »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2009, 09:05:57 PM »
Thanks RossW,


The condensation problem solved itself.  The whole problem looks to have been the mostly wet treated wood sides I used for the collector. They were heavy and quite wet thru and thru since I had just got them at the store.  I had forgot that the other solar collectors I made like this one was with wood that had been dried over a year in our shed.  Even though it looked dry on the inside surface, evidently a lot of moisture was pouring in the hot box.


So after a week, most all the condensation is gone and I think the wood is mostly dried out now. So it was not the Blue PEX afterall.  


So you knew there had to be moisture in the box somehow. Good answer Ross. I took out the pink insulation since it was getting water in it.  When I did, it melted and warped some of the normal temp poly-insulation board from the high heat! (Gary was right about that)


I will have to replace it later.  

Funny thing is, when the condensation went away for the most part, the efficiency of the heat tranfer actually went DOWN! (about 8 degrees average)


The water drops which actually were on the entire pex tubing (including the end part) , was, I believe helping in transfering the heat into the PEX.  But now it is gone and so the efficiency sucks even worse than it was.


So I took it back down and just finished putting all the aluminum 'absorber fins' on the PEX in the collector today. (almost 200 rivets-- Only cut my hand one time)


So tomorrow before noon I will have it mounted back up and it should do a LOT better.


I will give an update in a day or two about the results and some more pictures.


-Thanks for Dew point math.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 09:05:57 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2009, 06:49:27 PM »
UPDATE:  


Thanks guys for all the great suggestions! I know I have learned a lot. However, now I would do a few things differently.


For one, it sure would be nice to have a bigger solar collector as Gary said.  But I already had the tempered glass ($5) and so I used it. Sure would be great to collect more energy during those 'Mostly cloudy' days.  But mine is not too bad though for the effort.


Secondly, I would not try those cheaper, lower quality mini-pumps I showed the links for above. When the 14W mini-pump finally came from Hong-Kong (over 2 weeks shipping), I was over-joyed -- until I had a LOT of problems trying to get it and the line primed correctly for TWO HOURS and burned out the delicate little transistor in it. It is worthless junk now.


I do not know if the problem was me or the pump. I always had it BELOW the tank water level line. I did get it working in my sink though (still not easy) and it did spray water accross the room accidently and pumped a couple gallons in about a minute. It was WAY more difficult to prime than the smaller pump I got first.  The Solar water system is still operating using the small 6w pump.  (Have to retain the prime though each day)


I actually searched the internet for hours (BEFORE buying them) looking for a decent priced pump for something like this, and it is very difficult to find something that is not too expensive and uses little power at 12v yet is powerful enough to lift water high up 10ft in the Pex tubing.


The lowest NEW price I could find on the internet for a Swiftech MCP350 (or,355) was $73 plus $15 shipping. So I was afraid to spend $88 bucks for a 2.5" square mini-pump. (even though I know now it is a quality special purpose pump)


Recently, I went to Ebay and actually typed "Laing Delphi water pump" and happily found a NEW QUALITY Laing CPU pump for half price. It will be here in two days and I will let you know how it goes. Heres the link:


http://cgi.ebay.com/Delphi-Laing-Liquid-Water-Cooling-Pump_W0QQitemZ270411223130QQcmdZViewItemQQptZL
H_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef5c3d05a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3
A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50


It is very similar to Gary's CPU pump (same maker) and best of all has 20ft lift which I'm sure I will need! It says it is only 10 watts.  Hooks up directly to 12vdc (regulated) OR can be variably controlled with an external Potentiometer, evidently.


It also looks like it will protect itself from overload burn out.  I evidently could use that too.  This looks like a QUALITY pump to me.  Those cheap little pumps (I took it apart) had little nylon washers and a plastic hole for bearings like in children's toys. I doubt they would last much over a year.


Lessons learned. I thought I would share this lesson so others might think twice about doing it. I hope this one goes better.


OK. As I had said above, the condensation problem has SOLVED ITSELF.  It was the wet treated wood sides I had used.  I also had only painted ONE coat of flat latex paint.  


After all the water drips left the PEX, the heat transfer effieciency daily temp average actually went down about 8 or 9 degrees!  Therefore, I took it down to make and put the aluminum Absorber fins over the PEX in order to get that heat transfer back and hopefully, and then some.


The following is how I did it, and what I learned.





The actual width of usable area is only 33" inches.  I difinitely wanted 6 runs instead of only 5, so this made for quite a tight fit especially allowing for the absorber fins to be slightly tilted downward for decent drainage to prevent freezing.


At the bottom you can see the simple plywood jig I made to pound out the aluminum (about 6" wide)  grooves for the PEX tubing.

Unfortunetly I made another little mistake here without knowing it.  I used common 3/4" plywood for the two runners of plywood on each side.  The PEX is only 5/8" thick. I STRONGLY suggest if you do this , to use 5/8" thick plywood (or even, 1/2" plywood with 1/8" washers underneath it) so that the PEX tubing will have a TIGHT fit to the groove curve of the Aluminum.  Mine is a bit loose because I used the 3/4" plywood runners on the jig.  


I did not realize this until after I had already pounded out all the Absorbers.

This means that my aluminum absorbers (I called 'concentrators' at the beginning of the post- ha)  will be absorbing the heat thru a lot more of the 100 percent Silicon caulk to get into the PEX.  


Obviously, it is best to have the most contact of the aluminum fins tightly to the PEX tubing with minimum Silicon inbetween.  Mine has more Silicon to go thru, which will make the efficiency of my collector not as good as it should be. So don't let that happen to you.






I used 20" inch wide aluminum flashing cut into 6.5" wide pieces using my tin snips. Cutting these pieces took much longer than actually pounding out the grooves in the aluminum using the flat end of a heavy steel spud bar.(I couldn't find my sledge hammer)  

Strangely, one side of the aluminum was a gold color and the other bare aluminum. I figured the gold side might hold paint better so I went with that side up. (I had a 50-50 chance at getting the first one correct, but was, as usual, wrong. Notice my first one is the bare aluminum side up. Oh well)


I used almost 200 aluminum rivets to secure the aluminum absorbers to the sheet metal about every 5" inches. You can see all my left over rivet pins on the floor.







I plan on folding the two PEX lines back underneath the collector and holding them up at the right height for proper 'back drainage'.  Looks a little weird on the air conditioner like that.


The results are doing better.  I am amazed at how the heat in the box is transfering into the water better now.  The temperature in the collector is actually LESS now I noticed since more of the heat is transfering into the water.  


So far there has not been a decent mostly sunny day!!  It is just like the windmill curse of no wind right after putting up a windmill.  It is really freaky.

Right after putting the improved collector up, the weather.com people changed the forecast to total thunderstorms and clouds for the entire WEEK!  


Nevertheless, I can certainly tell it is much better.  The last two days has been 'Mostly cloudy' with the sun peaking out about 10 percent of the time.  

The temp in the Pre-heat plastic tank got 82F degrees for these two cloudy days and would dip down to about 75F when someone would take a shower or dishwashing, etc., and then slowly go back up.


Each day my family's average is the following: They take 3 showers, 2 dishwashings (machine), 2 loads of clothes washings (machine), and enough of Momma's misc 'cleanings' to equal another shower!


So for cloudy days it is actually doing quite well I think holding between 75-82F. (thats 25-32F degree preheating all day long on a mostly cloudy day)


When the sufficient Summer Sun actually comes back I will tell the MAXIMUM temp increases with the improved Solar collector.  


-Any more questions and comments are still welcome folks.  


-Thanks again.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 06:49:27 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2009, 06:54:25 PM »
Good news today.


The thuderstorms held off all day and it turned out to be a 'Partly cloudy' day with some decent on and off sun. (a lot of big white clouds moving in the sky all day)

The 'Curse' held off just long enough for me to get some satisfaction!


The daily temperature outside was about 74F Here in Ohio.

The Preheater did much better today starting out at 74F and slowly progressing up to 94F  Max in the evening. Thats up 20F whole degrees today even while everyone was taking out and using the hot water with showers, dishwashings, 3 clothes washings, etc. (The temp goes down usually about 4F degrees with each activity and then slowly back up)


So I am very happy about the improved collector even though it could have probably been a little bit better.

I am sure it will go above 100F when a total sun day comes along. (and the stronger pump should increase it some too-- with about three times the water flow)


I need to clarify this statement I made in the initial posting:


"Today was the first day everything was working, and it was exciting I must say.

It got up to 101F degrees in the tank and the exchanger line out looked to be the same temp flowing into the electric HWT."


On this first day I didn't realize when I wrote this that the actual plumbing wasn't hooked up until later in the day, and so the tank was able to ACCUMULATE heat undetered to 101F because it wasn't being brought back down numerous times from the family's hot water uses during the day until the plumbing was hooked up.  So I shouldn't have said it like that.


But the improvement now WILL take it up this Hot on a TOTAL SUN DAY even with all hot water uses during the day. So thats how I know it improved well.


I will tell about the new pump results here soon.   Sooo happy I made this.


 -Thanks.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 06:54:25 PM by CmeBREW »

GaryGary

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2009, 07:58:53 AM »
Hi,

Thanks for the detailed pictures -- very nice!


Looks like you are making good progress.


That is a lot of hot water use for the size collector, but the good thing about it is that the storage tank will likely be at a low enough temperature most of the time that the collector will be operating near its best efficiency, so you will get a lot of BTU added per day for each sqft of collector.  Every degree you preheat the water is a degree you don't have to pay for the energy to heat in the hot water tank.


One thing to think about before winter is your freeze protection.  It looks like the straight runs on your serepentine collector don't have any down slope.  This may make them somewhat reluctant to fully drain.  I like to put just a little down slope on each run to make sure they drain, but it will probably be OK as long as the collector is installed with so that all the straight runs are level (not uphill).  I did a test on this with transparent tubing:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/SerpentineDrainback/SerpentineDrainbackTest.htm

The horizontal run version did drain OK, but just.

The PEX will stand up  to a bit of freezing, but it won't stand up to the collector full of water being repeatably frozen each night -- you need to get most of the water out of it at the end of each collection period.  

You can get some idea how well the drain back is going by listening to it, but the best way to check is to let it drain back as much as it will, and then disconnect the line to the pump, and blow some air in the other end to see how much more water comes out. A bit of water is OK, but it should not be a lot.


You also need to make sure that the plumbing between the collector and tank has a down slope toward the tank -- if you have dips and rises, you won't get good drain back.


Gary

« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 07:58:53 AM by GaryGary »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 07:49:28 PM »
UPDATE: 8-6-09


My parents just got their monthly electric bill (for last month), and it was even better than I expected!!  It was the lowest bill they've ever had since they've been here.


The Solar water heating system has only been running 3 of the 4 weeks on this electric bill, and yet still saved $22 on this first partial month. My dad couldn't hardly believe it.  I have no doubt it would have been a savings of over $30 if all 4 weeks were included.  Here's the bill-- hope you can see it.





Even though it says "Aug", it means it's for the previous month of July. You can see 1125 KWH. Thats almost 300KWH less than the same month last year-- and nothing has changed and their habits are exactly the same.


The new 10W CPU pump works very good. I am very pleased with it and esp. since it was half price. It can easily pump the water up the 10-11ft. to the solar collector outside.  One thing to remember though if you use that pump is to make CERTAIN the pump and lines are completely primed at all times as Gary says.


I don't know about Gary's CPU pump, but this one has 4 wires.

Since you don't need it for variable speed, you don't use or need the 'Tach' wire.  The 'Negative wire' obviously hooks to the Negative on the 12vdc regulated power supply.  The other two wires on the pump are POSITIVE +12v wires and MUST be hooked together (one is called '+V-Control'; and the other wire is simply called +12vdc)  and then hooked up to the regulated +12vdc power supply.


I mention all this because the hook up diagram supplied with the pump is a little difficult to understand. If you only hook up ONE of the +12vdc wires on the pump, it will burn out in seconds.


Even though the pump runs at only 10 watts, the start-up amps is almost 40 watts. So I got one of those great priced solid state regulated 12.0 vdc power supply from 'Surplus Center' (on the back cover of the catalog) , so as not to even risk ever ruining the pump from getting too low of start up amps:


https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009080619533286&item=15-1191&catname=


(Note though, it does not include the 120vac/240vac power cord. It is a very common computer type cord though, and I had a couple extra in my personal wire storage. You can buy that there too I believe If you must)


It works very good at a perfect 12.0vdc , barely gets warm running all day, and wastes less power than the old transformer type when there is no load.(I heard)


Concerning the automatic Thermostat control:


Ghurd was good enough to email me and tell me that hooking the micro-chip controlled CPU pump directly to a thermostat would most likely be unwise. I'm glad he told me, because I am not that smart with electronics and really would like to make this nice pump last for years.


Cool guy that he is, he made me a super-simple 'solid-state relay control circuit' using a power-Fet to turn the pump on and off safely and 'cleanly' (fast, clean, switching) , with the thermostat which is about 40ft away from the pump.  


He got me the parts also, and I am putting it together right now on a little scrap piece of polycarbonate I had left over from another project. (about 3" sq. inches)

It is almost done. I will show it and the results real soon here. Until this 'electronic relay control' is done, I have been just plugging and unplugging the new power supply into the wall each day.


The thermostat I got is a typical common 'Baseboard Heating only' type.  Which means it is 'reversed'. Inotherwords, the thermostat OPENS when the temp in the box gets hot.

So Ghurd's simple circuit 'reverses' it back to what it needs to switch on and off correctly. Understand???


I put an UPDATED 8-6-09 photo somewhere up above which shows the 'Testing and Timing' and pre-heating at about 100F and the new pump well below the water line of the tank. Also, the siphon hose goes almost all the way to the ground to be extra safe.  On mostly sunny days it goes up to 100F - 105F Max at the end of the day, even with everyone taking out  a LOT of hot water during the day.  The Dreaded Dish washer machine is Still the worst thing of all.  I am studying on it to modify it covertly.


Gary:  You have a good eye about the Pex lines not slanting enough.  It was difficult for me to get 6 runs in only 33" width.  Actually, the first one on the left I forgot to slant. It is even.  But the next few runs DO have a slight slant (1/4"- 3/8"), but as I was rivoting it down the line boed up on me a bit without me knowing.  A few of the pex "U turns" sort of 'bow out' slightly too, which I didn't realize it before hand. The remaining (bottom) lines have a good 3/4" slant to them, so They will drain good.  I'm sure there will be a little bits of water here and there. But I am hoping that over-all, it will drain good enough for winter use. (as you said)


I will set the 'outside of the collector box' lines very carefully as you said, since if they froze, they could never thaw in the winter, and the pump would be struggling!


I may or may not do the air-compressor test to see how much water is still in the lines.  I have the compressor and blower tip, but not sure if I will have the time to do it??


-Any comments still welcome.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 07:49:28 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2009, 07:35:57 PM »
UPDATE 8-12-09 :


I finally got the time to make and finish the Simple Automatic thermostat control system.(SATCS)

The system is now Fully Automatic.  For a simple, cheap alternative, I think it works Great. But there are a few possible considerations and limitations.


First, here is the simple electronic relay circuit diagram Ghurd made for me to make.  




It is made with a power FET in the center.  I got the parts from Ghurd. Simply email him for any questions or pricing if you wish. (I already asked him)


I just used a tiny scrap piece of polycarbonate I had, and used a little aligator clip as a heat sink when soldering together the parts and the bare 24ga copper wire.  It would probably be even easier to buy a very small 'printed circuit board' from Radio Shack for a few bucks to solder this together like normal.


Believe it or not, this is the first electronic circuit I have made in over 23 years. I'm just happy it works. Only took me about a hour to do. The two big solid brass bolts are extra toilet bolts I've had for over 20 years in my junk. Glad I found a purpose for them finally.  







I chose the simple circuit layout in the upper right corner. The Led is extra to show when the pump is on/off.  Obviously, the thermostat line wires hook to the two red connectors at the top.


In the photo, the Green wire goes to the Power Supply NEGETIVE;  The Black is the Positive for the pump AND also hooks to the POSITIVE of the power supply; and the white wire goes to the negetive of the pump only.


Here it is in action with the CPU pump below the tank water line.








Everything stays very cool. (Note: Even though the pump and blue/green lines are LOW pressure, I intend to put a PEX connector on the Blue Pex line in the photo to be extra safe, instead of just the hose connector)


As I said before, the thermostat I used is a common 'baseboard only' type. It only goes up to 90F degrees, so thats what I keep it at.  Therefore, this thermostat is REVERSED, inotherwords when it gets above 90F (so-called; HOT) the contacts (microswitch) OPEN.  And when the temp in the box drops below 90F, the contacts CLOSE. This is opposite of the 'Attic thermostats' I've used in the past.


So Ghurds simple circuit REVERSES this back to the correct, useful setting to control the pump.  When the Thermostat opens (HOT in collector), the pump comes ON, and when the thermostat closes (COLD in collector), the pump goes OFF.


The thermostat is located inside the solar collector right under the glass in a corner. (I painted it black)


There appears to be a limitation with this simple control scheme though. It may depend on where you live and the time of the season. You will have to decide.


The pump starts up in the morning easily around 9am for me.(This part is fine and dandy)


But on many good sunny days over the entire duration of the day, the water in the tank can go over 100F degrees at the end of the day (say 6-7pm) even with the family's hot water uses during the day.


Then the sun goes down.  The hot water being circulated thru the collector causes it to remain hot in the collector for some time even when the sun goes down.  The thermostat SEEMS to not shut the pump off until the temp in the collector drops around or slightly below 90F.  So it can actully COOL the hot water in the tank DOWN toward 90F-- which is not desirable.


However, this is really not a big problem for me or my family and this particular system, because at about 6pm is when the dreaded 'Darth Vadar' Dish washing machine alway comes on right after suppertime, and it takes the hot water (100F-105F) in the tank down 8F-10F degrees anyway.


This uses the accumulated solar energy in the tank AND helps the thermostat to cool down ('shut off') in the evening and turn the pump OFF for the night.


Wow, I hope I said all that right!


So, it is all working out very well for my family and me.  I liked making this personal experimental project very much and seeing the results.


Any comments welcome.


(P.S.  I also put in the EVIDENTLY higher temp "Super-Tuff-R" insulation board I got from Home Depot. They don't really say what it's made from or if its for higher temps.  But they only had the 1/2" thick though.  I sealed it in good with silicon caulk all the way around, and then put the polystyrene board on the outside over it)


   

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 07:35:57 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2009, 08:04:06 PM »
The 'Reversing cooling effects' from the 90F Max thermostat in the collector during the evening hours, are not as bad as I had suspected.  Happy about that.  


The last number of days have been quite hot and sunny and the max temp in the evening is around 105F in the Pre-Tank.  The max temp drops only about 3 degrees (To 102F) until the thermostat and pump actually shuts off automatically.  So its not too bad really.


When the sun goes at a very wide angle in the evening, the glass on the collector actually gets cool which helps cool down the temps inside the collector faster (even though the hot water is still circulating thru the collector), causing the thermostat and pump to shut off automatically even sooner than I had thought before-- which is good.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 08:04:06 PM by CmeBREW »

Catch66

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2009, 12:22:07 PM »
Hear is A Idea that I used on my system.

Purchase a digital programmable thermostat run your 12 vdc+ wire through thermostat

then to pump. you can adjust your temps to highest setting for on and

coldest when you want it off.As long as your temp in room does not reach either.

Honeywell CT3200  powered by 2 AA battery's.


Renewable is very enjoyable.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 12:22:07 PM by Catch66 »

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2009, 11:34:55 AM »
Thanks Catch66,


I was afraid the little AA batts would explode in the collector (where it needs to be) using a digital thermostat. I actually do not know for sure.


The manual thermostat actually has been working flawlessly so far. However, I did

notice the plastic cover to the thermostat is warping some due to the 150F temps in the collector, and possibly because I painted it black.  But it keeps working fine so far despite this and uses no power to operate.


One thing I would have done differently for sure is to make the collector BIGGER than it is. Now that colder and gloomy days are coming back and winter is approaching, I can see this small collector is doing MUCH less now unless the sun comes out for a decent amount of time.


If I had to do it again, I would use two of those 2x8' corrugated polycarbonate panels that Lowes or Homedepot sells (20 bucks ea.) and simply bolt them together to make a bigger 4'x 8' collector.  Just jig saw out the 'wiggle strips' to seal the ends. Also much less loss than single pane glass.  May of been better to put the pex BEHIND the Absorber. Not certain though.


Thats what I just did on the New BIG 8'x12' Air/water Solar heater I am making right now.(NEW project at my place)   Thought it would be good to have a nice thermal barrier (1.5" space) on the front side of the Absorber , and collect max heat from Behind the steel Absorber.

I didn't want to make this one too small so I super-sized it for my small living space.

Hope it works decent for winter.


-Thanks for suggestions.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 11:34:55 AM by CmeBREW »

ghurd

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2009, 12:10:46 PM »
Hey Brew,


Not sure BEHIND is a great idea.

Seems like it would almost be like insulation between the hot sun side, and the cold water pipe side.


I wonder if getting the loops closer together at the high-side wouldn't help more than it seems.


If your windmills are doing as good as my little one in the last couple days, I expect the batteries are dumping.  And cold.

G-

« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 12:10:46 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

CmeBREW

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2009, 07:20:07 PM »
Hi Ghurd-


Yeah, thats what I use to think-- but I emailed GaryGary and asked him if he thought most Solar AIR (NOT water) collectors gather the heat from the Front or from Behind the Absorber.  He said he suspects the majority of AIR collectors gather the hot air from BEHIND the Absorber. He said this issue is quite a debate of which way could be best.  I don't wish to start a debate over this at this time, since I don't really know that much myself.  Its too late anyway though-- because I already done it with my New project!


But you could be right though-- especially for heating water.  

I hope to make a New posting soon about my latest BIG Solar AIR heater project-- because there is quite a LOT to it-- and I don't want to confuse with this posting about my Parent's Solar WATER heater system. I'm sure it's confusing enough.


-Yeah, the mills are doing great on these very windy days we're getting. The SUN just flew South for the winter (Sob)-- and the WIND (and rain!) just arrived big time!


-Thanks Glen.


P.S. That 'Tuff-R' insulation WAS the correct higher-temp board I believe. It has the yellow core with the foil on both sides. But 'Polyisocyanurate' was not written on the 1/2" board. But Finally got some 3/4" thick board at Menards store which is the same stuff, but it does have the 'Polyisocyanurate' name on it very small in a bunch of writings. So it looks the same to me.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 07:20:07 PM by CmeBREW »

willib

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Re: My $300 Solar Water Heater system for parents
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2009, 09:44:15 AM »
Hi cmeBREW

I have a question about the silicone caulk that you used between the PEX and the aluminum absorbers.

I am thinking that the silicone would sort of insulate the connection?

Wouldnt it be better to use zinc oxide? Or some other heat conducting paste?

What is that stuff they use on electronic transistors to make a good thermal connection.--Not shure what it is but i would think that it may work better than silicone?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:44:15 AM by willib »
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