Author Topic: need an opinion  (Read 2007 times)

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the desert rat

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need an opinion
« on: March 30, 2006, 02:39:34 AM »
hi all
i am considering purchase of a deep well pump from www.nemosolar.com.
this is for a remote piece of property in nw utah.
the pump specs say i will need 75-100 watts solar (3.6) amps for the depth
of my well. as we are not there more than we are the water is a primary
concern. the pump will fill a storage tank, not a pressurized system.
my thoughts are:
96 watts of solar running the pump directly till the tank is full,
then switching the solar over to a battery bank thru a diversion controller
(the batterys will run the surface pump for an automated watering system)
then dump the excess when the batteries are full.
my question is
should i get the 24 volt pump and run it slightly under volts? or
get the 12 volt version and run it slightly over volts?  
which is the most likley to get the longest life out of the motor?

scott
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 02:39:34 AM by (unknown) »

wpowokal

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Re: need an opinion
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2006, 09:19:34 PM »
Rat, is your system 12v or 24v? there in lies your answer.


allan down under

« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 09:19:34 PM by wpowokal »
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maker of toys

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Re: need an opinion
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2006, 12:29:03 AM »
quoting the nemo website:

2. OVERHEATING of FLOJET MOTOR: The Flojet motors used in Nemo Pumps are designed for intermittant duty service, which means they will overheat during extended run times or if overloaded.

 /quote


personally, I don't think I'd depend on a "submersable diaphram pump" in a well, especially one that is a modification of an intermittant duty pump that is NOT normally submersable. of course, your milage may vary.  


If i HAD to depend on one, I'd think long and hard about how to protect it from voltage swings and stalls; replacing worn diaphrams and brushes is one thing, but to pull the thing out of the well and discover that it had burnt a commutator or the windings . . .  let's just say I get really crabby when I'm dehydrated.


Nemo are claiming 2000 hours TTMO (total time between major overhauls) in optimal conditions.  I'd be skeptical of that number; if you run the brushes out, you'll tear up the commutator, and that's a machine-shop job to fix. (or buy an new motor)  1000 hours MTBF is my guess; so I'd be overhauling the thing at 500 hours. (see comment on dehydration) guessing that the pump is going to run 3 hours a day, (200 gal/day for irrigation? pretty small patch you're cultivating) I see a lot of pump-pulling in your future. . . .


That said, and bearing in mind that you will not see the full "nameplate voltage" out of your panels with a load on them. . . . certainly not in the mornings and afternoons and with dust, etc. on the panel faces:


you can run a DC brush motor over-voltage. (the Electric Car folks do it all the time with wound-field motors, but not in a continuous duty full power scenario.) the problem you have is that you will be running the pump either full blast or off, and if you're supplying irrigation water with it, it will run for extended periods at full load.  That means that the brushes, bushings/bearings and (cheap) permanent magnets will take a pounding, especially with a reciprocating load on the output. That adds up to significantly less reliability on a style of pump that isn't renowned for its durability. (nothing against FloJet-  all recip pumps tend to shake themselves to pieces) this is probably the route I would take if forced to choose a brush motor recip pump. . .  and there's that 500 hours again.


Running a brush-type DC motor on lower than nameplate volts will not hurt it as long as you don't allow it to stall.  A stalled motor will burn out its windings in surprisingly short order, even when supplied with lower-than-nominal voltage.  If you run the motor directly off solar panels, you're partially protected by the source impedance of the panels (ie you won't get big current into a short circuit like a stalled motor)  BUT, with a diaphram pump like the one nemosolar is offering, you stand a real danger of stalling (or failing to start) the motor when trying to start under full head without the big amps a battery can supply.  Maybe 10%  real-world undervoltage (measured at the motor) would be acceptable, but I wouldn't try much more than that. If you go this route, make sure that your down-hole wire is good and thick to minimize transmission voltage drop.  There are time-delay relays and other semismart electronics dodges that can use your batteries to supply starting current, then cut them out to run on solar alone, but system reliability and parts count are usually inversely related.


a brushless motor is a little more complicated as you need to supply the control electronics with a certain minimum voltage before they'll do their thing, and the same electronics will fry if you supply too MUCH volts.  the good news is that as long as your voltage stays in a reasonable range, the electronics will go a long way toward keeping your windings happy despite voltage swings, etc.  AND, the electronics can live somewhere you can get at them without pulling the pump. . . .  and by definition, there are no brushes to overhaul.  Brushless DC motors are about the only exception I can think of to the parts-count rule.


Save your coffee money and buy a brushless centrifugal pump for your well.  you'll probably get more water for less power, too.


-Dan

« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 12:29:03 AM by maker of toys »

the desert rat

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Re: need an opinion
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2006, 07:57:42 AM »
first of thanks for the replies
i wont depend on this pump as there is a 1/2 horse 110 v pump in the well already for the high demand periods. this will be secondary to keep the tank topped off while i am away. the system voltage is kind of stuck at 12v as i have three 32 watt panels already and dont want to buy another as wind will eventualy be the primary source of power.  the power for the panels should be close to rated as the solar insolation tables give me + 5% to +10% depending on the season.
 
from past experience before the well i can water about thirty trees on 100 gallons every two weeks with an efficient gravity drip system. we used to haul this to them before the well was in. i would like to have a full tank upon arrival as i hate the sound of the &*^%$#$%  generator.

i am leaning toward 12v (pump) to help compensate for low voltage on the panels as well as the 125 foot wire run. either doubled 12 or 10 ga. thus my thought to let the panels run wide open and hopefully save the cost of an lcb.

the battery system will only drive the surface pump and a small rv pressure pump will do for this as they are common and cheap.

thanks all
scott
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 07:57:42 AM by the desert rat »

ghurd

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Re: need an opinion
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2006, 08:50:43 AM »
Why not just drive a low power / low flow pump from the batteries?

Have you looked at Windy Dankoff's pumps?

G-
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 08:50:43 AM by ghurd »
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alcul8r

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Re: need an opinion
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2006, 03:59:28 PM »
The 24v Nemo I have lasted about 3 hrs max, about 4 sessions of 45 minutes each.  Took a long time to get it rebuilt under warranty and have not yet put it back in the ground.


Rex

« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 03:59:28 PM by alcul8r »

the desert rat

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Re: need an opinion
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2006, 05:20:10 PM »
was it the motor or the pump head that went bad?
just as i thought i might have a solution to an expensive (good)
solar pump. guess you get what you pay for :)
scott
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 05:20:10 PM by the desert rat »

alcul8r

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Re: need an opinion
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2006, 06:48:00 PM »
That was the motor that burned up.

Sorry for the bad news, but I can't recommend them until I get some good service out of it.


Though they shipped it from East coast they wanted me to send it to Canada for Warranty service.  Blamed long delay on customs but finally did get it back to me.  We had a wet enough year that I have not put it back in the hole yet.


Rex

« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 06:48:00 PM by alcul8r »