Author Topic: open loop domestic and radiant heat system  (Read 6037 times)

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bridget

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open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« on: December 11, 2007, 09:04:33 PM »
I am planning on setting up an open loop hot water system for my domestic and radiant floor. There doesn't seem to be many peple doing this around here which suprises me, am I missing something? I will try and describe our system as best I can and maybe someone out there can let me know if there are any huge errors on my part.


first we have  a storage tank for our water which is fed by a submersible 12v nemopump, the tank will supply the house (with an inline 24v pump) upstairs we have a woodstove with a stainless steel loop in the back, we plan to have our 50 gallon propane water heater set up beside it to work in a thermosyphon, this will then branch off to a mixer valve for domestic water to the house. then back downstairs we have 3 loops  off a manifold in our concrete floor on the lower level of our house,these will all have small elsid 24v pumps on the lines. there will be an expansion tank at the manifold along with temperture guages and pressure relief valve. is there any reason this system won't work?


Bridget

« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:04:33 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 02:56:22 PM »
"fed by a submersible 12v nemopump".

Then "we plan to have...".

"inline 24v pump".

"small elsid 24v pumps".


Sounds like trouble.  Mostly related to money!  12V and 24V don't mix, off grid or battery powered.

Please do not order/install 24V parts before it is thought completely through.


Not sure about paragraph 2.

The water is supplied by a submersible 12v nemopump?


The wood stove and propane.  Is this DHW or heat or both?  Might be a few issues with the temp set points.

Might think about from the wood stove to the water heater, to a ball valve, to the floor pipes, to the pump, to the wood stove.


Not sure if you saw this story, but it might be relative.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/11/5/15930/5940


G-

« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 02:56:22 PM by ghurd »
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kenputer

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 03:17:49 PM »
What is the exspansion tank and relief valve for if it is a open loop system?

Ken
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 03:17:49 PM by kenputer »

jonas302

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 05:03:44 PM »
I think your best off using a heat exchanger that mounts to the side of the water heater build on or check ebay for side arm exchanger this keeps the heating and drinking water seperate as you definatly dont want to keep heating up well water for your floor heat if I understand corectly

Have a great night
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 05:03:44 PM by jonas302 »

bridget

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 05:44:44 PM »
I realize that it would be ideal to have it all 24v dc, when we bought the 12v pump, we hadn't yet planned to do the house in 24v dc. We may change to a 24v dc pump.


The expansion tank and PRV is for when the domestic is not in use, there may be potential problems.


We have considered the heat exchanger, but i can't see why it would be a problem to have the water in the floor, the way we have it planned(I think) it won't go to the floor unless the demand (thermostat) is there to circulate. Also lose efficiency with the heat exchanger. We are heating the water from the woodstove and expect to have more than enough to supplement the floor based on heat load calcs and the size of our home/woodstove.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 05:44:44 PM by bridget »

martin1

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 06:48:20 PM »
Where will the returning water from the floor loops go???
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 06:48:20 PM by martin1 »

bridget

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 08:07:25 PM »
to the hot water heater
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 08:07:25 PM by bridget »

jmk

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 09:31:15 PM »
 I know on my water to water heat exchanger They told me to mount it as close to the water tank as possible top side and vertical side no more than six inches away. The closer the better they flow from the difference in water temp. The problem is sediment in the water wants to plug up the pipe inside the exchanger. I didn't have a water softener till last week either though. Mine always plugged up with lime. If your water tank isn't really close to your stove it may not self circulate, and you may have problems with minerals in your stainless water heater on the wood box too. My water is all separate form the domestic water, so I can put a corrosion prohibitor in the water. Plus what minerals are in my system wont be added to by daily use of water. They wanted my system to be brass, and plastic. They don't recommend using copper or black pipe. That might just be because of the chemicals they sold me to keep my stove from rusting on the inside, but then again they put it in their stainless stoves too. I already had copper running through the whole house for base board heat, so I said screw it and ran with it. I'm on my fourth year and haven't had a problem yet other than the heat exchanger and water heater plugging up. I think it's something to do with the slow flow that it makes the lime stick to the plumbing? You may be ok with really clean water? My exchanger had to be cleaned once a year. I would hate to think of the whole system.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:31:15 PM by jmk »

alternety

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2008, 01:40:55 PM »
The guys who do radiant for a living are generally seriously against open system and shared heating/potable water systems.  It is dangerous because the system is quite capable of growing things you don't want to drink or put on your body.  It may also cause corrosion in pumps and boilers because it continually refreshes mineral and dissolved oxygen content. I would use a heat exchanger and keep them separate.  In a closed circuit the tubes you sue for a heating circuit should include an oxygen barrier.  If not, all of the metal in the system that contacts water needs to be brass or stainless or it will corrode.  If the system will be tuned off during periods of freezing temperatures, it needs to be drained and blown out (including the heat exchanger/boiler) or use antifreeze made for radiant systems (not auto antifreeze).


Also note that if you are going to do a radiant system you should really calculate heat loss and know how much heat needs to go into the floor.  That will help you figure out what pump you need and how much tubing in the floor. The water temp for the floor and the hot water heater may be quite different.


A smart boiler can help with different temps for the floor and DHW (indirect water heater).  Also can change floor temp as outside temp changes.  If you are not using a propane boiler - never mind. If you plan to buy a propane boiler - get a condensing unit. Efficiency of these can get up to 98-99% efficiency.


Get a book and read it first.  Free software at the Slantfin website.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 01:40:55 PM by alternety »

williamG

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Re: open loop domestic and radiant heat system
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 04:18:11 PM »
i have been using  a "home made open to air outdoor wood stove  for  home  heating and domestic water  for  7 years..no problems  yet,,,,i do use an oxegen grabber that i mix with the  water  once a year...and in the  winter i  add only  about 1 gallon a month

this  year  i just  added  a  floor  loop in a new  basement  addition and i dont  forsee  any  problems  with it  either

i have  had to replace  no parts yet


my  heat exchanger for  domestic water is also  home  made...50 foot coil of  soft  copper  i  wrapped into  what  looks like a  coil spring 10 inches  wide  inside a 12 inch pipe

 

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 04:18:11 PM by williamG »