Author Topic: best solution and set up [CLOSED due to ATTITUDE]  (Read 3999 times)

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dbelles

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best solution and set up [CLOSED due to ATTITUDE]
« on: February 06, 2010, 06:43:22 PM »
What setup and system should a person use for a grid tie wind turbine if I am trying to get a fairly large amount of kW's?  Maybe as high as 10.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 06:43:22 PM by (unknown) »

dnix71

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2010, 07:02:29 PM »
Depends completely on where you live. Contact your local electric supplier and ask them what they allow.


If you live in the US, go here for reference:  http://www.dsireusa.org/

Flash based site for alternative energy.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 07:02:29 PM by dnix71 »

dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2010, 07:10:07 PM »
to accept it the out has to be the same as theirs and must disconnect or shut off when the grid goes down so no back feed, hence where the fun begins.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 07:10:07 PM by dbelles »

Volvo farmer

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2010, 08:38:36 PM »
Oh, that's easy. Quick payback? Low price? I got the wind turbine for you! What's it going to take to get you into this wind turbine today? We have many good financing options. How much a month can you spend on a wind turbine? Do you have a trade-in?


I have a 10KW VAWT all thought out on paper, I just need a few smart individuals to help me out here and invest in my idea.


Woops I just read the "please be nice" plea. Nevermind.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 08:38:36 PM by Volvo farmer »
Less bark, more wag.

ChrisOlson

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2010, 08:43:20 PM »
There's no grid-tie system where you're going to get a quick payback.  When we went off-grid because the utility wanted $160,000 to run three-phase power to our place, we bought a 250kW Cummins genset to make our own power.  We looked at a grid-tie system and the possibility of participating in a peak power program and selling power back to the utility.  But the equipment was too expensive and they got it arranged so you get shafted if you want to sell power back.  In the end, it was cheaper to run the genset, make our own power and forget the utility.  Of course, diesel fuel was cheaper then and now with #2 offroad fuel (we mix it with our own homebrew biodiesel 50/50) at $2.50 a gallon we're turning more to wind power to run the everyday stuff and just using the genset for the heavy lifting.


If you're looking for a 10+ kW wind system and don't want to build it yourself I think Jacobs turbines (sold by Wind Turbine Industries Corp) are pretty proven.  Their website is here and it has a dealer locator so you can find your local dealer:

http://www.windturbine.net/


We've looked at a Jacobs 31-20 turbine and for 20kW max generating capacity it's about the same price upfront as a 250kW diesel genset (around $70,000).  Spread out over 15 years or so, however, with the numbers I've pushed the wind turbine is much cheaper per kWh.

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Chris

« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 08:43:20 PM by ChrisOlson »

Jon Miller

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 04:39:18 AM »
Depends where you live in the world, grid tie systems do work and you can get ROI of 15% and paybacks of under ten years if you live some where in Europe with a feed in tariff.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 04:39:18 AM by Jon Miller »


DanB

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 06:40:22 AM »
As Chris has said.

It's hard to compete with the utilities...  your grid energy now is pretty cheap (they are very good at making cheap electricity on a large scale).


That said, if monetary payback is all you're concerned about here - it maybe possible if:



  • you have a lot of wind

  • a lot of time or money

  • a lot of federal and state incentives



There is an economy of scale with wind energy, larger machines generate less expensive electricity.


Chris mentioned a Jacobs machine... I'll chime in and say that the 10kW Bergey is a fairly inexpensive (depending what you call expensive), well proven machine.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 06:40:22 AM by DanB »
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DanB

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 06:41:27 AM »
You might also read 'Wind Power for Home Farm and Business' by Paul Gipe.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 06:41:27 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 09:12:43 AM »
Seems like a lot of use of induction out there, but when a person mentions it on this board people jump all over them.  Yet I find that they offer no real good reason why a complex setup with inverters, batteries and all, which costs over twice what an induction setup would, is so much better.  I have talked with people in the area I live and find that most of these little inverter setups are basically a good hobby or toy (joke some might say).  Seems like they really don't see much good in them and a lot of them have been taken down when they burn out the inverter or gen. (a problem reported a bunch and these are supposed to be good units from commercial companies that are bragged about even on this board).  It seems to me that induction has far less parts, less costs, and less to go wrong.  When properly controlled side by side I understand that induction can not run or produce in as wide of a range of speeds as other setups or be off grid as easily, but for the costs (and replacement costs if something goes wrong) I am a bit confused as to the bias against induction.  So here we go, I am not saying one is better than the other or trying to brag one up, these are just my observations and wondering if you are simply talking about making power (yes that is what is trying to be achieved) for lowest cost then what works best from experience?  


Let the attacks begin because I know there are those out there that are just so much smarter about this than others.  I have one really big question for anyone to answer that is going to attack this posting though, if you are so smart about this then why aren't you a millionaire owner of your own turbine company or even offering a unit for retail?  Yes I know everything sold doesn't always work, but just a little proof that your system is so great or that it works so well or has better yet even been built by a second person with good results?  If you aren't one of those that loves to attack people feel free to respond, but if you are going to attack away, take that time and go get a life.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 09:12:43 AM by dbelles »

dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 09:15:22 AM »
Simple question, best setup recommendation, kinda fool proof but I guess your make something fool proof someone makes a better fool.  Thanks for proving that point at least.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 09:15:22 AM by dbelles »

Jon Miller

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 09:53:12 AM »
'Seems like a lot of use of induction out there, but when a person mentions it on this board people jump all over them.  Yet I find that they offer no real good reason why a complex setup with inverters, batteries and all, which costs over twice what an induction setup would, is so much better.'


The main reason people on this board do not use induction generation set ups is they are more complicated then plugging in a varying simple DC input.  


I think the reason that most people on here like off grid systems and grid interactive systems is the perceived security from the rest of the world, ie having power when the grid goes down, of course you need the rest of society to build the batteries and cables one would need.  However, there are people on here, such as some who have commented, that do not have a grid connection and the cost of getting one is very expensive and this has to be weighed up against the cost of a battery based system.  


' I have talked with people in the area I live and find that most of these little inverter setups are basically a good hobby or toy (joke some might say).'


Very small systems will never make a big impact and this includes small grid tie systems, pv, wind, hydro etc.


'Seems like they really don't see much good in them and a lot of them have been taken down when they burn out the inverter or gen. (a problem reported a bunch and these are supposed to be good units from commercial companies that are bragged about even on this board)'


pays your money you take your choice, its a hobby like you say.


'It seems to me that induction has far less parts, less costs, and less to go wrong.  When properly controlled side by side I understand that induction can not run or produce in as wide of a range of speeds as other setups or be off grid as easily, but for the costs (and replacement costs if something goes wrong) I am a bit confused as to the bias against induction.  '  


You right, they are much simpler and they do have much smaller tolerances and they are made from of the shelf parts so cheap and easy to replace.  But, for the DIYer they are complicated, phase angles, power factor, inductance, capacitance, line impedance, transient states and grid compatibility all have to be considered and worked out.  Grid tie inverters, plug them in and plug in your RE source job done.


'these are just my observations and wondering if you are simply talking about making power (yes that is what is trying to be achieved) for lowest cost then what works best from experience?'


delivered energy is what you get paid for, does not matter if it comes from an induction system or a grid tie inverter.  Larger wind turbines ~ >5kW are induction generation systems typically and are three phase systems.


It all depends where you are in the world, so where do you live? no one can help you with your first question till we know where you are, how much money you have, what system you want (do you know?) basically, a free consultancy, so dont moan that people are being bias.


           

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 09:53:12 AM by Jon Miller »


TomW

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 10:19:37 AM »
**SIGH***
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 10:19:37 AM by TomW »

tanner0441

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 11:12:07 AM »
Hi


You have posted three threads on here asking the same question, and people have tried to explane to you why it is a no goer. Most people on here are on here because wind turbines and solar PV is a fun thing to do with a bit of payback. Some are on here because they for one reason or another are not connected to the grid, but I don't think anyone is here to get rich quick.


Induction generators and small wind turbines do not fit into the same sentence. Induction generators need good speed regulation or the frequency will wander.  From one of your earlier posts you want to use a three phase motor to generate your power, I would imagine your supply is single phase and that is the simplest problem you have.


If you want to produce loads of power to sell back to the grid buy a big gas turbine unit and negotiate a price with your power company, and they will not let you feed it back into their lines without some method of synchronising the frequency and emergency disconnect.


People are trying to help you but you do not have the basic grasp of electrical theory to understand.  Look at a simple system that works make that and learn from the experience. If you stuck a set of blades on a stepper motor and lit an LED you would learn more about windpower than trying to make a 1775 RPM 10 HP motor turn fast enough to turn into a generator.


Brian.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 11:12:07 AM by tanner0441 »

Perry1

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2010, 11:46:22 AM »
Not sure why you seem angry about this but..............


Here is a company that developed a DIY grid tied induction machine.


http://www.prairieturbines.com/


Induction machines are the back bone of real power creating turbines. Not hobby grade turbines in the <5 kW range. They are not as complex as some would have you believe. I don't really see anyone crapping all over them in this thread but if they were, I am sure the critical people have never worked with them.


As far as making money off the power, I wouldn't think you would gain much traction with a machine under 50 kW though and you can expect to spend ~$100k to get there.


If small wind turbines were a get rich quick business all these people would be doing it already.


Perry

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 11:46:22 AM by Perry1 »

Jon Miller

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2010, 12:00:12 PM »
Urm
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 12:00:12 PM by Jon Miller »


DamonHD

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2010, 12:06:41 PM »
TomW, life is so much simpler, at least in the very short term, if you vigorously dispute and/or ignore answers that you don't agree with, though it would be even simpler and easier not to ask the tricky questions at all I suspect.  After all, that strategy worked really well in the Dark Ages, didn't it?


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 12:06:41 PM by DamonHD »
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dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2010, 01:50:55 PM »
well I would like to thank the post before yours, and as for the other posts I made they got erased after the people finished their little attacks (what 12 years old out there).  If you don't have all the information and are not looking to help then shut up and don't answer.  Seems to take more effort to be unhelpful then to be quiet and I never said I want to start selling loads of power to anyone.  Maybe everyone needs to ask questions instead of jumping to conclusions, brain before mouth try it out.  Again I notice that you have never made an induction system or speak of any sort of larger system so thanks for the nothing.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 01:50:55 PM by dbelles »

dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2010, 02:05:05 PM »
Wow, so just don't take the hint, if you have no information on an induction or a DC system or any other method that can help then don't reply.  You are not being commanded to respond, you didn't start the thread therefor take the hint.  Maybe you just don't understand I am interested in finding out about making a decision on what to look for, more practical, more effective for the job at hand and the list goes on.  


The other methods, that's great and super for those who are looking to be off grid and do what they do.  It is just not going to be what I am looking for, that simple, unless a person can show me something different instead of making rude comments.


I am encouraging you to spell out then how you would or do make a system your way (looking for ideas that simple).  If you don't have a system then don't make a comment real tough.  Lets see if you can figure or fit that into your head for a second, either talk about a system or shut up real hard.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:05:05 PM by dbelles »

dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 02:21:22 PM »
Thanks for the info, and I guess you can see what I was talking about below.  Ask people a simple question and simply get no useful information 9 times out of 10.  I had seen a Breezy go up about 2 hours from where I live along a highway and it has been up for quite a while which is what interested me in induction and how you pull it off but had not gotten much help with the theory behind it and how it worked exactly other than the verbal attack.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:21:22 PM by dbelles »

TomW

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2010, 02:25:40 PM »
dbelles;


Time to grow up.


You come in here with attitude and no solid information then act like a 5 year old that doesn't get his cookies and milk when folks try to enlighten you.


Please go away or grow up. Either is fine by me.


Tossing around untrue accusations does you no good.


There is a lot of good info to digest if you would just remove your cranium from your rectum.


Remember who is asking who for help and note the cost, too.


Tom

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:25:40 PM by TomW »

ghurd

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2010, 02:39:14 PM »
Yes it will work and pay for itself in about 2 days.

In as short as 10 minutes with good wind.  5 minutes with strong wind.


Consider that a 10 or 14 year old giving you the answer you wanted to hear.


You obviously do not comprehend the knowledge of the people you call 12 year olds.


"if you have no information on an induction or a DC system or any other method that can help then don't reply"


You were spoon fed the data.   Slowly.  With itty bitty spoons.  You obviously are not capable of comprehending it.

Go build something and get it legally connected to the grid.


"I am encouraging you to spell out then how you would or do make a system"

And I am encouraging you to give us tomorrows lottery numbers for the unknown state and country in which we reside.


"Seems like a lot of use of induction out there", and 'that's what everybody thinks'

Yet on the largest RE board in the world, you can't find enough support from people who have actually done something but type theoretical concepts to keep from getting you panties in a twist.


Or you could simply hire an engineering firm.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:39:14 PM by ghurd »
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dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2010, 02:45:56 PM »
if you don't have a system to talk about and describe how it has been working for you then don't write anything.  That simple I am interested in the various methods and how well they have worked for people.


Okay lets try this again:


NO SYSTEM OF YOUR OWN TO SPEAK OF AND TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEMS YOU HAD AND HOW IT IS WORKING FOR YOU THEN BE QUIET


Damn even my 4 year old daughter can understand how to be quiet

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:45:56 PM by dbelles »

Jon Miller

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2010, 02:46:25 PM »
TomW is right you have some attitude issues and very little understanding.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:46:25 PM by Jon Miller »


dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2010, 02:49:56 PM »
Okay lets dumb this down even more because most of you aren't getting it obviously


NO SYSTEM TO SPEAK ABOUT THEN DON'T SPEAK


Holly cow people asking a simply question what do you use and how does it work for you, maybe it isn't even near what I would be looking at doing but I would like to know all the options.  So lets see can someone talk about what they use and how it is working or just continue throwing out random attacks and crap?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:49:56 PM by dbelles »

ChrisOlson

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2010, 02:50:06 PM »
Seems like a lot of use of induction out there, but when a person mentions it on this board people jump all over them.


Dan B mentioned Bergey turbines.  I'm not familiar with, or have any experience with them, but I'm sure they're very good because everywhere I go in the wind power business they're always talked about with high regard.  I AM familiar with Jacobs turbines and have not only visited the factory and talked to a dealer about buying one, I've also visited two farms that have 31-20's up and running.  One of those places had a UL508 208 volt inverter with a grid-tie, and if you think a battery/inverter system is a toy, then you haven't seen a real one.


Either one of these options would fulfill what you're talking about - it's up to you to go get prices and push the pencil to see how it works out.


In fact, using the Jacobs systems, which I've researched quite a bit, I believe you actually end up with less of an upfront expense than running a turbine with an asynchronous generator because of the complicated control systems required for a direct grid-feed machine.


Most of the farm-sized asynchronous machines use Winco generators that have to run at 1,800 rpm to make 60 Hz power.  That means, unlike the Jacobs units which use a 1.6:1 step drive, you have a 10:1 step drive (or more, depending on the rotor size) with the associated maintenance costs of those drives, the turbine draws grid power to start it (they're not self-starting), and once up to the synchronous speed of the grid mains has to utilize a variable pitch rotor to maintain that generator speed at 1,800 rpm and 60 Hz +/- 0.8%.  All that stuff costs money, and if you'd do some research on direct grid-feed machines you'd see that battery/inverter systems are actually cheaper up front, provide off-grid backup, and have a lower cost/kWh until you get over 20 kW generating capacity.


But the bottom line is, I can put up a Jacobs 20 kW grid-tie system with a 208 volt battery bank and inverter for around $70,000.  I've looked at two different 25 kW induction machines in the past, and the base sticker price on them started at $250,000 and went up from there.


I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to whether I'm bashing direct grid-tie turbines.  But in the research I've done you need to get to between 39-50 kW and up before they start to pay off.  And you'd better have deep pockets to keep the thing running, because the maintenance costs on them are atrocious when you have to hire a crane to come out every time the gearbox starts spraying transmission fluid all over the place or you have to replace brake pads on the yaw brake.

--

Chris

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:50:06 PM by ChrisOlson »

dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2010, 02:50:58 PM »
wow, that really followed what I asked in the post right before didn't it.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:50:58 PM by dbelles »

dbelles

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2010, 02:54:21 PM »
Thanks for the info, I will be looking into what you mentioned.  It just seems that most inverters out there are like toys, they won't hold up and simply won't work without complicating the system.  Are there sites to which you might point a person to good quality inverters that do the job right and are the right size for what I would be looking for?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:54:21 PM by dbelles »

TomW

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2010, 03:05:59 PM »
Been great knowing you. This thread and you are history.


That is official.


Tom

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 03:05:59 PM by TomW »

ghurd

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2010, 03:08:37 PM »
There are dozens, maybe 100s, of grid tied systems by members here.

Some of these guys actually design the UL-Listed stuff you don't think you need.


There are 100s of completely off grid systems by members here.

And you don't think they are doing it right.


You do not comprehend what has already been explained to you in 4YO terms, do not comprehend the links you were given, or the reasons behind supplying them, and somehow you believe being an ass will get better answers.


So why didn't you go ask all these smart buddies of yours that have these working systems with induction setups that don't need all this complicated stuff exactly how they do it?

Because you are blowing smoke like any troll.


"Wow, so just don't take the hint"?

When I smacked my 3YOs hand about touching a hot stove 3 times, she got the hint.


You are the 3YO, and a 3YO does not make the rules here.  Until you buy the company that pays the bills.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 03:08:37 PM by ghurd »
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tanner0441

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Re: best solution and set up
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2010, 03:27:11 PM »
I want to ask you a question............ Do you have any of the books by Hugh Piggot, or the one done by the people from here?


They explane all about blades, coils, and magnets, and tell you how to put them all together to produce electricity....


Most of the people you are telling to shut up all have working systems of variouse sizes, me included. Some of us have solar and wind.


If you think small inerters are toys, any inverter that can start a loaded washing machine motor is not a toy.


I am in the UK if you are close enough you can come and look at a small WORKING system..


Brian

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 03:27:11 PM by tanner0441 »