Author Topic: BLADE QUESTION  (Read 1335 times)

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Breezee

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BLADE QUESTION
« on: June 22, 2004, 05:30:49 PM »
Can anyone out here tell me or show me what a blade looks like on a genny that has a varible pitch hub? Do they have a twist in them, do they have a taper? Can't find any up close pictures,it's almost like they are forbiden. Is there any formulas like there is for one position blades? Does anyone know of a website that might sneak a picture out of a profile of a blade? I'm guessing one side is flat and the other has a "clark Y" airfoil from the root to the tip. I don't know about the taper though. I can change my pitch from 45 degrees at startup to 0 degrees at 200 rpm. I'm thinking of swept area of 10 feet. Need some help!!!!!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 05:30:49 PM by (unknown) »

gibsonfvse

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Re: BLADE QUESTION
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2004, 06:42:53 PM »
Unfortunately, the answer to your question is very open-ended: there are many combinations of taper, twist, and airfoils that can lead to efficient performance.  The main driver is environmental conditions, like typical wind speeds, etc.  I still have to study up on this myself... a Google search for "wind turbine airfoils" gives some helpful preliminary information, though I'm going to see if I can work through Betz's minimum-induced loss criteria myself.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 06:42:53 PM by gibsonfvse »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: BLADE QUESTION
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2004, 07:15:58 PM »
Can anyone out here tell me or show me what a blade looks like on a genny that has a varible pitch hub? Do they have a twist in them, do they have a taper? Can't find any up close pictures,it's almost like they are forbiden.


I don't have any information on what is actually done.  But here's the design approach I'd use (if nobody points out a flaw in it):



  1. The purpose of varying the pitch of a blade on a mill is to reduce the power pulled from the wind (and the drag from it) when the wind is strong.
  2. When this occurs there is more power than you need.  So optimum performance is no longer an issue.  (Just don't feather it as much as if you could keep its shape optimum, and you'll still get the power you want.)
  3. The profile of the blade is very low-friction, to avoid losses when spinning rapidly cross-wind.  So feathering it into the wind shouldn't produce excessive drag.
  4. Therefore, the appropriate design is to optimize the blade for the lowest wind speed, feather it (rotate the leading edge windward) by various amounts to tune it for higher wind speeds or lower loads, and not sweat the non-optimum shape when feathered.
  5. Non-optimum twist means the wind will produce some bending force in the blade (due to the hub and the tip wanting to turn at different rates).  On an airplane prop the forces are so great you might need to strengthen the blade a bit to compensate.  On a mill the blade is proably already far to strong for this to be an issue.  So ignore that, too.


You see this same design philosophy in sailboats.  The sail shapes are optimized for the maximum-deployed position (used when winds are weak and every bit counts) and accept a somewhat non-optimum shape when reefed down for stronger winds.  (Ships on long trips may switch to smaller sails for various reasons - in which case there's no reason for them to be non-optimum in THEIR max-deployed shape, even if a larger sail reefed down to that size WOULD be non-optimum.  An optimum shape DOES slightly reduce list and improve upwind progress.  But day-sailers don't bother with multiple sails, and even racers generally don't except for special purposes such as sailing downwind.)


Does that make sense to you?  And does it give you an adequate prescription for designing your blades?

« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 07:15:58 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

gibsonfvse

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Re: BLADE QUESTION
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2004, 01:24:48 PM »
1. The purpose of varying the pitch of a blade on a mill is to reduce the power pulled from the wind (and the drag from it) when the wind is strong.


That's one reason why variable-pitch turbines exist (pitch for speed control).  Another reason why variable-pitch turbines exist is that the pitch angle can be optimized for the best power extraction when the wind speed is at a safe level.


3. The profile of the blade is very low-friction, to avoid losses when spinning rapidly cross-wind.  So feathering it into the wind shouldn't produce excessive drag.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here; if you're talking about controlling the speed of a turbine in very high winds, then excessive drag (to prevent the rotor rotation from accelerating), as well as a reduction in lift, is exactly what you want.


4. Therefore, the appropriate design is to optimize the blade for the lowest wind speed, feather it (rotate the leading edge windward) by various amounts to tune it for higher wind speeds or lower loads, and not sweat the non-optimum shape when feathered.


If, by "lowest wind speed", you mean the typical wind speed for your site, I'd agree with this.


5. Non-optimum twist means the wind will produce some bending force in the blade (due to the hub and the tip wanting to turn at different rates).


There are multiple reasons to optimize the twist distribution.  One is for structural concerns, which is what you mention here.  The reason I refer to is minimum-induced loss, or greater aerodynamic efficiency.  Optimizing for aerodynamic efficiency will not necessarily optimize for structural strength, though the two are not mutually exclusive (as far as I know right now).


I'd follow along some of the lines you give: optimize the rotor for the wind speed you are most likely to see.  At low wind speeds, being close to feather gives high startup torque (think of airplane wings: if the angle between the wing and the oncoming wind is too high, the wing will stall and not give much lift).  At high wind speeds, some turbines drive their blades back toward feather; this is option with more predictable behavior. (Other variable pitch turbines drive their blades the other direction to stall them, causing excessive drag, but stall behavior is much harder to predict.)  Unfortunately, I feel like I've just confused everyone :)

« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 01:24:48 PM by gibsonfvse »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: BLADE QUESTION
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2004, 03:57:06 PM »
1. The purpose of varying the pitch of a blade on a mill is to reduce the power pulled from the wind (and the drag from it) when the wind is strong.


That's one reason why variable-pitch turbines exist (pitch for speed control).  Another reason why variable-pitch turbines exist is that the pitch angle can be optimized for the best power extraction when the wind speed is at a safe level.


I'll buy that.


(My discussion, though, was related to picking the shape of the blades, so I guess I oversimplified by ignoring the unrelated purposes.)


3. The profile of the blade is very low-friction, to avoid losses when spinning rapidly cross-wind.  So feathering it into the wind shouldn't produce excessive drag.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here; if you're talking about controlling the speed of a turbine in very high winds, then excessive drag (to prevent the rotor rotation from accelerating), as well as a reduction in lift, is exactly what you want.


No.  I'm saying that when the blades go more edge-on to the wind they're "slippery" rather than "draggy".


You don't need drag to slow down when you feather.  Rotating the blades changed the tip speed ratio.  (If the blades are turning too fast they'd pump air rather than being pumped by it (or if feathered enough would just swat it around) and THAT would produce the necessary drag to slow 'em down.)


4. Therefore, the appropriate design is to optimize the blade for the lowest wind speed, feather it (rotate the leading edge windward) by various amounts to tune it for higher wind speeds or lower loads, and not sweat the non-optimum shape when feathered.


If, by "lowest wind speed", you mean the typical wind speed for your site, I'd agree with this.


I think we're on the same page.  What I meant was somewhere on the low side of the range of typical speeds.  And size your prop so the genny will be maxed out for most typical speeds.


The point of a feathering prop is to be able to run the genny at its own max-out in most wind speeds.  Then you pick your optimized speed to get the best you can from the distribution of lower wind speeds where you can't max the genny - taking into account that optimizing it for the wrong speed may slightly raise the point where the genny maxes.


What constitutes the "best you can" may depend on your situation.  If slow winds are rare and only last a short time, it's OK to let the mill be pokey or even stop, and live on the stored power.  But if low winds, even if rare, tend to last for days (and you don't have other resources except maybe an expensive-to-run backup generator) you may want to make the mill oversize and/or optimize the blads for lower winds, to keep alive during these times.


5. Non-optimum twist means the wind will produce some bending force in the blade (due to the hub and the tip wanting to turn at different rates).


There are multiple reasons to optimize the twist distribution.  One is for structural concerns, which is what you mention here.  The reason I refer to is minimum-induced loss, or greater aerodynamic efficiency.  Optimizing for aerodynamic efficiency will not necessarily optimize for structural strength, though the two are not mutually exclusive (as far as I know right now).


I mentioned that because it was the only one I thought of at the time that I considered to be a concern.  (Another is that inefficiency results in extra drag forces which must be fought by the supporting structure, and this may be an issue.)


I'd follow along some of the lines you give: optimize the rotor for the wind speed you are most likely to see.  At low wind speeds, being close to feather gives high startup torque (think of airplane wings: if the angle between the wing and the oncoming wind is too high, the wing will stall and not give much lift).  At high wind speeds, some turbines drive their blades back toward feather; this is option with more predictable behavior. (Other variable pitch turbines drive their blades the other direction to stall them, causing excessive drag, but stall behavior is much harder to predict.)  Unfortunately, I feel like I've just confused everyone :)


I was mostly talking about the latter case - feathering to reduce power collection and speed in high winds to protect the mill.


But my main argument was for optimizing the blade shape somewhere BELOW the median windspeed, in order to maximize the amount of power you can get from the wind, running the genny maxed-out over a wider range of windspeeds than if the blades were optimized for a higher wind.


The point is that (if you're not running a wind farm where you want to capture ALL the energy you can that's passing over your land) you don't really CARE if you're inefficient when the wind is high.  Then you have energy to "waste" (i.e. leave in the environment).  But when it's low you need to be efficient, to grab all of the limited resource you can get.  So you optimize for a lower speed, and let the mill be non-optimum (but still maxing the genny) when the speed is higher.


You can always throw away extra power (by feathering the blade to make it less efficient).  You can't grab more than your blade can grab.


Maybe the drill should be:

 - Size the blades to max the genny for most typical wind speeds.

 - Optimize the blades for the minimum speed where you can max the genny.

 - Make the tower extra strong (because the blades will be a bit draggy in high winds.)


Sound reasonable?

« Last Edit: June 25, 2004, 03:57:06 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »