Author Topic: Lots of Pics - Generator  (Read 2040 times)

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Firefly

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Lots of Pics - Generator
« on: June 30, 2004, 04:41:19 PM »
This is for your enjoyment.I know that some will have questions but its a busy time of the year for me. Plan on a complete report after testing. I will have to get my 3hp test motor going as i burnt out the small 1/4 hp that I was using for voltage vs rpm test. Some of the basics are:


  1. v
  2. phase
  3. pie shaped mags per disk


dual disk


  1. big coils
  2. turns of 22ga
  3. coils per phase


stator width 1/2"

12" dia. disk

More to come in the fall.

                  FIREFLY



























« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 04:41:19 PM by (unknown) »

windstuffnow

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2004, 06:08:10 PM »
  Very Very Nice!  Do you have any data on it?  Toss in all the techie stuff, love to read about these projects!


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 06:08:10 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

Firefly

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2004, 07:13:50 PM »
Ed,

the only data that I have so far is 100 rpm = 120v. The coils are each 324 turns of 20 ga. five pairs of two coils hooked in series. Each coil terminates at screw terinals so its easy to expirement. Each of the five phases has a bridge rectifier and then thier outputs are sries wired. I am using 16 of those pie shaped magnets that I purchased from you on each 12" disk.

It will be some time before the test bench gets going. The motor on it is going to be a 3hp 3 phase. i only have single phase at my home so the plan is to buy a variable speed drive that feeds from 220 line and outputs three phase varible freq. for speed control to the motor. I'll have to save some coin for that. probably late summer to eary fall.

The unit has absolutly no cogging. a good turn of the disk by hand will brightly light a 100 w bulb.

                                            Firefly
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 07:13:50 PM by Firefly »

windstuffnow

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2004, 08:22:05 PM »
   Sounds fantastic, keep us informed of your progress !  What are you going to use it for?  


Have Fun, Keep up the great work!


Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 08:22:05 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

Firefly

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2004, 04:54:05 AM »


Hhopefully it will become wind powered.

                         Firefly
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 04:54:05 AM by Firefly »

drdongle

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2004, 05:33:24 AM »
OUTSTANDING!

I pope I can one day turn out such nice looking machines.


Carpa Vigor


Dr.D

« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 05:33:24 AM by drdongle »

Firefly

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 11:06:39 AM »
Thanks to all. I think your all a bunch of highly talented folks.

                                       Firefly

 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 11:06:39 AM by Firefly »

hvirtane

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2004, 11:31:58 AM »
Really nice work.


When you have now rectified all the phases

separately and have got the possibilities

to experiment...


You might as well make an experiment

connecting the phases in series with

some capacitors with them. To make a test

concerning a discussion we had earlier about

connecting the phases and rectifying them

separately?


- Hannu

« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 11:31:58 AM by hvirtane »

monte350c

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2004, 02:31:59 PM »
Very impressive work!


I wonder if you considered using gas power for your tests - either a horizontal shaft 5 hp engine, for example. It would need about 10 or 12:1 either belt drive to the motor or through a jackshaft.


Or (with apologies to DanB) what DanB used for one of his tests:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/5/5/113859/0616


Might be easier and less dough than tackling the 3 phase thing...


Again great job and looking forward to the numbers!


Ted.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 02:31:59 PM by monte350c »

Firefly

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2004, 04:49:07 PM »
For sure i will, The fun part is coming up. Rest asured any findings will be posted but its going to be awhile yet.

                                    Firefly
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 04:49:07 PM by Firefly »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2004, 09:39:37 PM »
Each of the five phases has a bridge rectifier and then thier outputs are sries wired.


With a serise setup you have five times as much voltage drop in your diodes as if you did a parallel system.  At two diodes per phase that's 8 extra diodes, at maybe .6 volts each.  So you're losing 6% of your power heating up the diodes when you could be losing only about 1.2%.  The extra 4.8% just goes down the drain.  And the voltage drop doesn't go down when the generator slows down in low winds, so the percentage will go up.


If you rewound your coils with more turns of finer wire - summing to the same number of circular mills - and connect them using a parallel bridge rather than series, you'd generate the same amount of power (at a higher voltage and lower current) but wouldn't lose the extra 4.8%  5 extra watts 24/7 is nothing to sneeze at.


Since you're summing several voltages that are out of phase I'd have to work out the phase angles to figure out what multiplier would get you same voltage, and I'm about to go off to my remote site for the holiday.  But since you've got a lot of phases I'd approximate it as 5 * 2/PI or about 3.2 turns in the new coils for every turn in the current ones.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 09:39:37 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Victor

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2004, 07:27:35 AM »
Hi Rod,


"With a serise setup you have five times as much voltage drop in your diodes as if you did a parallel system.  At two diodes per phase that's 8 extra diodes, at maybe .6 volts each."


 YEAH ,BUT   since the voltage is five times higher the percent of loss is the same. Don't forget in the parallel scheeme you have the same current in each bridge 5 times.


 I'm not saying that I think rectifying each phase is the way to go ,but I think the diode losses are the same whether the DC voltages are connected in series or parallel. With the loss equal to the diode drops/ the phase voltage


Victor

« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 07:27:35 AM by Victor »

Victor

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2004, 08:15:27 AM »
Hi Rod,


 After rereading your post I see you are talking about rewinding each phase for a higher voltage and THEN connecting the rectified outputs in parallel for lower diode losses. I agree.


 Victor

« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 08:15:27 AM by Victor »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Lots of Pics - Generator
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2004, 05:24:10 PM »
YEAH ,BUT   since the voltage is five times higher the percent of loss is the same. Don't forget in the parallel scheeme you have the same current in each bridge 5 times.


No:  In the parallel scheme you have 1/5 the current in each diode.  The current per coil is lower and the voltage is higher.


Some of your savings in going to a rewound genny and a parallel bridge comes form the drop in current per diode from working at a higher voltage, some from having only your own coil's current in your coil and its diodes, rather than having current from your own coil when it's at the peak of its cycle, and current from the other coils when it's at a lower part (when it could be loafing instad.)


Hmmm:  I didn't consider the extra losses in the COILS.  The savings from rewinding and going to a parallel config might be even greater.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 05:24:10 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Another - bigger - downside of series connections.
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2004, 12:55:08 PM »
I was thinking about it a bit more.


What may be more significant is that the RMS current in the individual coils is higher when they're in series than when they're in parallel.  (In this case I mean the true RMS, not the .707*peak approximation for sine waves.)  In parallel they only conduct during their own peak - when their voltage is the highest.  In series they conduct for that AND for the peaks of the other coils (except when their voltage is low enough that some or all of the current stays in the diodes, making both sides conduct).


Higher current in the coils means more heating.  The heating of the coils is the limit on how much a particular machine can generate - so you have to run the genny at lower power to get the same heating.


Again I have other committments and can't spend the time right now to figure out how much this hits you.  But I bet it will be large - like a factor of five (the number of phases), of the same 3-ish that we saw with the voltage change for the rewind, or some lower number due to some of the current bypassing the coil thorugh the diodes due to resistive drop in the coils and the diode forward current non-linearity.  Any of these would be a disastrous derating of your genny.


I was also thinking about connections:  If you connected it in a five-point Y you could get away with half the multiplier on the rewind - AND half the diodes (though the diode drop would be about the same - in fact a tad higher unless you used diodes rated for twice the current).   This is close enough to the original wind that you might not have to bother rewinding the coils - just make the mill spin a bit faster.  The "current from other windings" effect due to the 5-wire Y replacing 10-wire separate commections would be zero with AC resistive loads, present but quite small with rectification.  (In fact your 5-phase setup should reduce it considerably compared to a similar recitfied 3-phase setup.)


This discussion is far back on the horizon.  So if you don't reply to it in the next couple days (if only to say you've seen it) I'll try to send it to you directly or point you to it in a reply to some other posting you make.  (Or maybe I should work out more details and post an article.)


Or if you want to correspond directly my email we can figure out some way to exchange email addresses without alerting the spambots.  B-)  (Note that I already get so much spam that I only muck out the box and read the correspondence occasionally.)


    cheers

    Rod

« Last Edit: July 05, 2004, 12:55:08 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Firefly

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Reply
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2004, 05:11:49 AM »
Right now, There are two coils per phase that are wiresd in series. Then all phases are connected together in series after rectification. The coils can be easly re-wired into other configurations.

                                                         Firefly

« Last Edit: July 06, 2004, 05:11:49 AM by Firefly »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Reply
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2004, 10:46:05 PM »
It's the after-rectification that matters.  Before-rectification series connection of equivalently-phased coils is just fine.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 10:46:05 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »