Author Topic: BLADE TIP  (Read 1417 times)

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Breezee

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BLADE TIP
« on: June 30, 2004, 04:44:18 PM »
I am finishing carving my blades and have a question on what to do about the tips. My rotor dia. is 10', a varible pitch hub, startup at 45 degrees and feather to 0 degrees, 150 to 250  rpm's, blade tip width is 3.5" , 3  blades , simple airfoil on backside,flat on front,no twist or taper. My question is should I round the tips or just leave them square? I still can't find any info on carving a blade that uses a varible pitch. Can anyone help?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 04:44:18 PM by (unknown) »

Dan M

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2004, 07:52:08 AM »
I'm not sure which surface you want to round.


My understanding is as follows:


When you view the blade tip "face on" you should leave the profile essentially intact to the end of the blade.


When you view the blade tip "edge on" this should be rounded.  This will slightly affect the "face on" shape.


Any time you have a wing that generates lift you have higher pressure on one surface than on the other.  At the tips, this pressure differential is trying to equalize by way of the air under the "wing" trying to rush around the tip to the top.  This is largly responsible for what are called "wing tip vortices" (sp?).  A wing tip vortex is a cylinder of rotating air at the tip of each wing (you can see this when a plane flies low over the water or dusty ground).  The energy it takes to disturb this air is lost in the form of additional drag.  I don't know how significant this is for turbine blades.


You can see the general shape by looking at the end of an airplane wing.


Hope this helps,


If I'm all wet, someone please straighten me out,


-Dan M

« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 07:52:08 AM by Dan M »

Breezee

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2004, 12:24:50 PM »
Thanks Dan for the info. Would I round it off from the side that has the airfoil? approx how far back do you think?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 12:24:50 PM by Breezee »

Dan M

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2004, 01:23:46 PM »
I'm trying to recall the shape of the end caps on small aircraft wings.


I think the radius on the end is about 1/2 the thickness. Slightly larger toward the low pressure ("airfoil") side, slightly smaller toward the high pressure (flat) side.


This is just from memory.  You may want a second opinion before taking a belt sander to your blades.


Good Luck,


Dan M

« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 01:23:46 PM by Dan M »

finnsawyer

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2004, 08:22:11 PM »
Remember the British Spitefire.  It's wings were oval shaped to reduce the tip vortices.  Also, an airplane propeller has a rounded tip and these things can be 80 percent efficient.  So in general a rounded shape at the tip (as viewed from above the blade) should be more efficient.  Think this way: Each blade should avoid the wake of the previous one.  Reducing the vortices reduces the wake.  As you round the tip feather it down to the end.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 08:22:11 PM by finnsawyer »

RobC

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2004, 08:23:29 PM »
I think rounded tips generate much less noise. My 11ft dia mill is actually very quite even in high winds. Whats really strange is that if you stand directly under it there is almost no noise. RobC
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 08:23:29 PM by RobC »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2004, 12:09:04 AM »
Any time you have a wing that generates lift you have higher pressure on one surface than on the other.  At the tips, this pressure differential is trying to equalize by way of the air under the "wing" trying to rush around the tip to the top.  This is largly responsible for what are called "wing tip vortices" (sp?).  A wing tip vortex is a cylinder of rotating air at the tip of each wing (you can see this when a plane flies low over the water or dusty ground).  The energy it takes to disturb this air is lost in the form of additional drag.  I don't know how significant this is for turbine blades.


The same thing happens with sailboat keels.  The keel has to be extra deep because the last foot or two is just there to keep the water from running around the end and provides little side force.


Some boats, intended for trailiering or "gunkholeing" (sailing into shallow water), have a much shorter keel, what is called a "wing keel" (as opposed to the normal "fin keel" or a "bulb keel).  This ends flat and has a small section of airfoil (hydrofoil, actually) mounted crosswise, oriented with the more covex lifting surface toward the rest of the keel.  The crosswise section keeps the water from running around, so you don't need those extra couple feet, and the airfoil helps to keep the water flow on the blade side rather than running under, too.  (The body of the keel has a symmetrical airfoil shape, too, and the lift from that, when there's current from the side, improves the boat's resistance to side-slip.)  A downside is that if the boat is listing, more of the keel is shadowed by the the hull and foreshortened, so you don't want to let it go over too far or you sideslip and lose way.


The similarity to a mill's prop should be obvious.  The body of the prop is an airfoil, but the end is largely along for the ride due to the air running around it rather than being deflected.  You should be able to pull the same hack and get more power from a given diameter.


It's been a while since I saw the Catalina's keel.  But if I recall correctly the wing was a bit narrower than the keel was long.  (I HAVE seen some commercial mills with a similar wing on the end.  Rather small, and I think they also had it overhanging the trailing(?) edge by about the width of the blade.)


I'd probably let 'em overhang a bit in both directions to make forming the leading and trailing edges easier, and make it airfoil shaped but thin, to keep the drag down.  It doesn't contribute any forward force directly, though directing more of the wind into the blade makes the blade ends work better.


Anyhoo, if I make a prop mill I may try this for the end rather than worrying about rounding, or what-have-you.  If you try it let me know how it works.  (I'd also screw 'em on and try it with 'em on and off to check out the power difference in a given wind.  I'd replace 'em with a small hunk of curved wood - like half a really fat dowel with the ends rounded to match the blade - just to protect the end of the blade while the wings were off.)

« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 12:09:04 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2004, 12:12:44 AM »
A downside is that if the boat is listing, more of the keel is shadowed by the the hull and foreshortened, so you don't want to let it go over too far or you sideslip and lose way.


Another downside is that it doesn't put its weight as low in the water, to provide righting force by gravity, as a full-sized fin keel.  So they may make the wings larger than ideal for the hydrodynamics so they'll also serve as an extra end-of-keel weight, like a bulb keel (which looks like it has a torpedo mounted at the bottom).  So the proportions of a fin keel might be a bit off from what you want on a prop.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 12:12:44 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

elvin1949

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Re: BLADE TIP
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2004, 10:25:39 AM »
had the same thought

well worth a try

later

elvin
« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 10:25:39 AM by elvin1949 »