Author Topic: up and running but not happy  (Read 1671 times)

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windrules

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up and running but not happy
« on: July 16, 2004, 09:08:06 PM »
I have just put up my new genny (long time getting this far)it is made from a 240 volt single phase 4 pole 4.1 amp motor with 16x 22mm neos 4 rows of 4 on square steel rotor with about 8 degree offset to reduce cogging.Firstly had rewired it to parrallel instead of series,put it up with 3 x 700 mm blades (pvc)and got no outputin about 25 kph winds.So then shortened blades to 500mm and the wind increased to about 60 kph and managed to get 4 amps in a stronger gust,but nut much below 60 kph.I then pulled it down and rewired so it has 2 set of series parrallel winding which is much better,saw 10 amps in about45 kph still using 500mm blades.The lower wind performance is dismal.Now my question is should I go back to bigger blade length or should I make a set of wooden blades or should I rewire to sraight series for lower wind performance.In current form it will give about 1 amp at 25 kph which seems realy poor.

Thanks,

Mos
« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 09:08:06 PM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2004, 10:08:06 PM »


    scope out the output of each coil and look for the phase peaks , sync the phases sound like alignment . Check to  magnetic is flow  thru the stator core . I've had to rewire the One horse motors pulling apart both sets of windings and using 18 awg wire around only one of the core ( yeah man tedious ) and magnets aligned under each to get magnetic flow from one core segment to each of the adjacent core .Good output though.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 10:08:06 PM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2004, 10:13:26 PM »


   bad spelling and grammer resultant of copious consumtion

 I apologize.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 10:13:26 PM by tecker »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2004, 10:19:47 PM »
First I'd see how fast it's spinning.  (Borrow a frequency counter.)  Also how much voltage it's putting out at a given speed.  (Voltage at or exceeding rated voltage times actual frequency over rated frequency would indicate the magnets are OK or close to it.)


That should put a cut between too low a tip speed on the blade and problems with the genny.


If the issue is too low a speed, next is to compare the actual tip speed ratio with what you expect given the slope of the blade.  If it's 'way low, your blade is too small and the genny is dragging it down.  If it's about right you need a higher TSR design - or to rewind the genny for higher voltage - to load the blade and get the power out.  (I'd go with a higher TSR blade, since the genny output with a given set of magnets will be higher at higher speed.)

« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 10:19:47 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2004, 10:52:10 PM »
One other thing first:


Firstly had rewired it to parrallel instead of series,put it up with 3 x 700 mm blades (pvc)and got no outputin about 25 kph winds.So then shortened blades to 500mm and the wind increased to about 60 kph and managed to get 4 amps in a stronger gust,but nut much below 60 kph.I then pulled it down and rewired so it has 2 set of series parrallel winding which is much better,saw 10 amps in about45 kph still using 500mm blades.


Check that you rewired it correctly.  If you wried two different phases in parallel, or paralleled the same phase but with the wires of even one of the windings swapped, you just created a powerful electromagnetic brake.  Even one winding miswired this way will slow down the prop enormously, leading to low output even from the correctly-connected phases.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 10:52:10 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

hiker

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2004, 12:45:06 AM »
sounds like my 3/4 maytag motor --puts out a lot of amps but needs rpms to get there.

so i made that tork blade and geared up the alt.just used sprokets from an old ten speed..ran it off of the big front sproket and the smallest sproket in back..

it was just a test setup now im going to fine tune it..still have a few tricks left.

seems to me when you off set your mags you lose a lot of power--because when its

cogging its trying to power up--plus your messin up the magnetic field for the best

power output.. just my way of thinkin..


  good luck..

« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 12:45:06 AM by hiker »
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windrules

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2004, 02:15:36 AM »
Thanks guys for your comments. This might sound silly but if I had one coil out of whack wouldnt that make the other one on that side out as well and totaly eat all of my output. It is possible I have totaly stuffed the phase thing up and might need to rectify each coil then put them in series or parallel to give either voltage or amps.My first thought is to go bigger with prop that is faster as it seems slow to start and maybe just not catching eneogh wind.I can't scope the thing as I don't have one and wouldn't know what I was doing with it anyway LOL!!!Another question is when you rewind one of these things do you just pull out existing wire and wind the new stuff back in.I would think if you did this you would try to go more phases.

Thanks again,

Mos
« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 02:15:36 AM by windrules »

iFred

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2004, 09:03:41 AM »


I beleive you have several problems to contend with here. 1)you don't have enough spacing between the magnets and this is causing magnetic feild to go where you don't want to go during a specific time sequnce. namely the phases.


 I would really need to see the picture of how you did your rotor, I did a search and found no images. Provide an image of your rotor so we can see what is going on. 2) is there a thermal protection device in series with the coils? 3) you may have magnetic shorting occuring in the rotor, need to see a picture of the rotor. 4) if you wind it in series you get higher voltage, in parrelle you get higher current.


5) The blade, which I seid in another post is doing what I seid it was going to be doing, it will produce very little output if any, remember I posted this. You need to consider another blade. The problem with a constant pitch is that it resists the high end, you won't have enough RPM's to get it where it will really start producing power.  


The torque is produced in nearest the root with the most twist and needs to be flat nearst the tip where the rpm's are high and meets with no resistance but lots of speed and rpms. If the blade has constant pitch then the tip where it is supposed to produce RPM's and speed actually produces drag and hence braking before reaching any real power.


Since the size of your rotor is small you need rpm's and speed. The smaller the rotor the higher the speed, the larger the rotor the less the speed.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 09:03:41 AM by iFred »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2004, 10:30:26 AM »
This might sound silly but if I had one coil out of whack wouldnt that make the other one on that side out as well and totaly eat all of my output.


In a polyphase the separate phases are largely independent.  (In a two-phase they'd be COMPLETELY independent, in a three-phase you can treat it as such.)


When you parallel windings and don't get it right, it's like shorting out a coil:  When the rotor moves any generation creates enormous currents, which hold onto the magnetic field, resisting your motion, and dump the resulting energy into heating the wire.  The lower the resistance of the wire the higer the currents, and with losses going down with the resistance and up with the square of the current the more the braking force.  (Electrically braked motors, such as those on cutoff saws, work by shorting the motor windings while the rotor is still magnetized, doing this deliberately.)


Thought of an easier way to check for that:  Take all the electric load off it and try turning it by hand.  If it fights you (other than cogging, which alternately fights and helps) you have a shorted turn.  Put a heavy pulley on it, give it a shove, and see if it keeps spinning for a while.  A miswired parallel winding, or even a parallel winding of two coils that are off by a turn, will slow it down.  (Also:  If you didn't get your magnets mounted symmetrically, and if the windings are on separate poles, the paralleled coils won't be exactly in phase and you'll get some braking from that.


Another thing you can do:  Chuck it in an electric drill, run it up to some constant speed, and check the voltage on the three phases of your wiring hookup, just before the rectifier.  They should be the same, or very close.  Any cheap meter with an AC volts scale will do.  (If it fights the drill you've got a bum parallel hookup.)


It is possible I have totaly stuffed the phase thing up and might need to rectify each coil then put them in series or parallel to give either voltage or amps.


Putting them in series, THEN rectifying them, THEN putting them in parallel will eliminate the issue (at the cost of more diodes).


I can't scope the thing as I don't have one and wouldn't know what I was doing with it anyway LOL!!!


My first thought is to go bigger with prop that is faster as it seems slow to start and maybe just not catching eneogh wind.


Thanks for posting the picture of your prop.


It looks to me like the REAL problem is that your blades are too slanted and your tip speed ratio is way too low.  So the genny doesn't move very fast and produces low voltage and little power.  You need to change the slant of the blades so they're closer to flat to the wind.  That trades lower force for higher speed, so if you're having startup problems form cogging you'll need a bigger prop.


You also need bigger blades to make up for the blades being flat rather than curved so that the section near the hub has a smaller slant to the wind than the section near the end.  The farther out the blade, the faster it's moving.  So the lower slope it needs to match the air's motion.


(If you use flat blades the outer parts are ending up being an air brake when the inner ones are still pulling power.  As you pull power from the blades with the genny the blades slow down and the pull/drag region moves outward, until eventually even the tips are helping.  It works OK but it's not as efficient as if the whole blade was working evenly.  In addition to the non-trivial power loss you get a lot more drag, so you need stronger supports and bearings.  But this is minor compared to speed-matching with the alternator.)


Another question is when you rewind one of these things do you just pull out existing wire and wind the new stuff back in.  I would think if you did this you would try to go more phases.


I think so.  (Haven't actually rewound motors since I was a kid and not sure I did it right then.  Can somebody else comment?)


Three is the optimum for power/copper ratio and that's what the cutouts in the stator are designed for.  Wind it the same way but thicken the turns and use fewer of them to fill the same space (i.e. same total cross-section of copper in each slot), and you get lower voltage, higher current, and the same power.  To increase the power you need to move the magnets faster or make them stronger - and there's a limit to how strong you can make them before the core saturates and you can't get a stronger field through it.


If you want to change your wind you can lower the startup speed by increasing the number of poles and changing the coil layout to match.  But that involves rearranging the magnets on the rotor as well.  You end up with more turns in a given space (provided you've got the slot space for them) so you can get the same current and a higher voltage (and thus more power) from a given number of magnets.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 10:30:26 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

windrules

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2004, 05:49:48 PM »
OK I will try to get some photos of rotor and my prop soon (the prop pic is from hiker, not mine.) Also need to pull the thing down to check a couple of things,trouble is I work all day most days and its dark both ends of the day this time of year.Also if I wired just 2 single coils andleft the other 2 unhooked (ends loose and insulated)and recified just 2 indivual coils would this work as a 2 pole even though I have 4 magnets.Also can the magnets be too narrow,my magnets are about 22mm or 7/8inch round with about 1inch gap.Is this gap two large? Sorry for lack of pics but all my pics are on another computer which I shall get when I have time.

Regards,

Mos
« Last Edit: July 17, 2004, 05:49:48 PM by windrules »

windrules

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2004, 03:04:45 AM »
Here are the pics of rotor and prop




regards,

Mos

Ps:images seem rather large,sorry !!!!!

« Last Edit: July 18, 2004, 03:04:45 AM by windrules »

hvirtane

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2004, 03:25:35 PM »
Hi,


do you have any means to measure

the air gaps?


It seems to be that

it is difficult to get small air

gaps (air gaps = distances from

the magnet surface to the irons)

with that kind of rotor.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: July 18, 2004, 03:25:35 PM by hvirtane »

windrules

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2004, 08:56:11 PM »
Hannu the air gap is only about 2 mm although its hard to measure.I would have thought this gap was small eneough with such high powered magnets neos about 1/4 inch thick and 7/8 inch round.

Thanks

Mos
« Last Edit: July 18, 2004, 08:56:11 PM by windrules »

hiker

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2004, 11:21:08 PM »
sorry about that tork blade in there--it was made for a geared up alt..

anyway it looks to me your mags are fine,but your blades have to much pitch

and are to small--try making one of your own out of a 2by6 maybe 7.5ft.

or a three blader--my 6ft.2by4 blade works great with my 1/4 motor,alt..

belive me i have played around with blades.........

« Last Edit: July 18, 2004, 11:21:08 PM by hiker »
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hvirtane

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2004, 10:08:46 AM »
Hannu the air gap is only about 2 mm...


Then it is OK.


Are the magnets laid so that

on each line all the magnets

have got N up and in the next

line S up?


Did you try, if the generator is cogging?


If it does heavily, please check,

if your magnets are narrow enough

to fit inside coils.


Did you test the generator in any kind of

test bench to get an idea about the power curve?


If you don't have any other kind of test bench,

you might fix it on a bicycle... Fix a metal tube with 3 bolts on the axle if it isn't long enough. Fix the generator so that you can get a friction

drive from the back wheel and lift the back wheel

on a stand...


If the generator power curve seems to be reasonable (please check against Jerry's and other people's conversions), then you should fix the blades.


Basically for airfoil blades the angle should

be only about 7 degrees - 9 degrees on the tip

to get it going reasonable fast.


You might make other testing blades.

You can really quickly make some

'Reinikainen' wind rotors with four 'blades'.

Please see my diary.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 10:08:46 AM by hvirtane »

windrules

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2004, 05:38:13 PM »
Hannu,

thanks for your reply.Have just posted a thing on props as well.At this stage I have pulled the genny to bits and wired each coil seperately and took the wires from each coil to a rectifier(only had 2 recifiers so have 2 rectified and 2 not conected so only have a 2 pole at the moment)after doing this the genny seemed to turn over much easier. so now think it must be the wireing.Finny the wind has ceased here completley so dont know any results.3 days so far without any brease even.

Thanks Mos
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 05:38:13 PM by windrules »

hvirtane

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2004, 09:48:21 AM »
Hello,


I think that you got at least one

coil just the wrong way around.


Please try testing it so that

you first try with one coil connected,

then connect the next, and next and next.


At each time, please test if the alt

becomes suddenly much harder to turn.

You also can try with a bulb, if

the voltage goes up each time,

when connecting a new coil.


You will certainly get it working.

There are only four coils and basically

your magnet setup is correct, if you've

got four rows of magnets.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 09:48:21 AM by hvirtane »

LEXX

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Re: up and running but not happy
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2004, 07:07:14 PM »
Just got a look at your prop there, what's the TSR on that, how much wind do you guys get up there?

LEXX

« Last Edit: July 28, 2004, 07:07:14 PM by LEXX »