Author Topic: Tail stability Problem  (Read 1359 times)

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iFred

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Tail stability Problem
« on: July 21, 2004, 08:10:18 PM »
I have a generator with no furling. Height is 25ft (a little low I know), The tail even in a good wind wants to go all over the place rather then stay in the wind direction and stay stabile. Question, what is causing the tail to be so unpredictable and how can I stabilize it so that it stays in the wind more stable? Would increasing the size of the tail or the length of the tail pipe do it?


Thanks in advance

« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 08:10:18 PM by (unknown) »

hiker

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 08:41:17 PM »
would help to have a pict,,

it may be to close to the gen--or to small--may be to large,then it catches every little breeze.and jumps all over..
« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 08:41:17 PM by hiker »
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iFred

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 09:37:34 PM »


It's the one right on the front page of web site.


www.internetfred.com

« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 09:37:34 PM by iFred »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2004, 10:48:55 PM »
Tail looks too short.


Here's a guess:  Perhaps the short tail causes the yaw oscilation frequency of the mill around the windward orientation to be close to 3/N (for small N) times the blade rotation rate for some range of wind speeds.


If this happens, the alternate vorteces peeling off the blades would pump the oscilation - much more than the tail working against the air would damp it.  So wag would build up until something stopped it (like the blades slowing down or the amplitude of the wag getting big enough that it changes the frequency of yaw oscilation by getting into a different force:offset ratio).


They could track for quite a range of wind speed, since faster wind both speeds up the prop and increases the centering force.


Anyhoo:  Try lengthening the tail.  That will both slow down the yaw resonance - probably to far below 3 times the rotation rate for any reasonable wind speed -  and increase the centering and damping forces.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 10:48:55 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

iFred

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2004, 11:07:20 PM »


Bingo!!! Thats seems exactly whats happening. It speeds up then looses the tracking, I gets lots of power then it decreases then speeds up again and during this its rotating all over trying to track but has it only sort of. I get power 1/4 of the time very high and then the rest is lost. THANK YOU!!!


 

« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 11:07:20 PM by iFred »

gibsonfvse

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2004, 01:31:28 AM »
Wow... incredible point.  I'll have to keep that in mind for when I design and build a turbine!  
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 01:31:28 AM by gibsonfvse »

hiker

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2004, 03:11:59 AM »
one other point!

 is the blade mounted on straight!! you can"t even be off by a fraction..

otherwise your blade will cause your mill to ocallate[back and forth].

somthing i found out the hard way!!!!!!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 03:11:59 AM by hiker »
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DanB

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2004, 07:21:39 AM »
Yes, I would say either lengthen it... or make it a bit larger.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 07:21:39 AM by DanB »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2004, 11:02:47 AM »
one other point! is the blade mounted on straight!! you can"t even be off by a fraction.. otherwise your blade will cause your mill to ocallate[back and forth].


Yes!  That would also pump the yaw resonance I mentioned above, when the rotation rate approached the resonance, creating the same symptoms but at a higher speed.


If the misalignment is small and the damping is adequate it will settle down if it can get going faster than the resonance.  But the pitch component of the vibration will still be stressing the bearings and tower.  So even if lengthening the tail (which might get you past the waggle) settles it down you should try to get the prop on striaght, or at least dynamically balanced.


The prop being mounted with even a miniscule tilt between the prop and shaft axes includes an example of "dynamic imbalance" - which we discussed a couple weeks ago, which translates rotation into yaw and pitch vibration.  If you can't get the blades on dead straight you can compensate for that with weights, though getting them adjusted is a bitch.


Unless the tilt from the axis is severe the dynamic imbalance should be the only mechanism pumping energy from rotation to yaw due to blade tilt.


Static imbalance would also pump yaw oscilations from rotation - again at the frequency of the prop rotation, rather than the blade passage rate.  The farther the prop is from the yaw axis the greater the transfer (unlike dynamic imbalance, which doesn't change with that distance.)


Once I had it spinning, I'd feel the support or guy wires for any vibration.   If I get vibration at the prop rate I'd recheck the static balance, then try to tweak the tilt or do some dynamic balancing.  Vibration at the blade rate I'd ignore, as unavoidable aerodynamic effects.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 11:02:47 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

iFred

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2004, 01:53:41 AM »
I just spent about an hour watching this thing what it's doing. I drew it out sorta..



So now, what is it?? it tracks at certine times and others it locks in, then at higher speeds it totally looses it and turns completly away?

« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 01:53:41 AM by iFred »

Victor

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Re: Tail stability Problem
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2004, 08:47:10 AM »
Hi Fred,


 I suspect that the problem is turbulent wind due to the short tower ( any buildings or trees nearby?).


 Believe it or not, a zero offset upwind turbine will track steady winds very well without any tail at all once it is locked in. Ask anyone who has run a free yaw down wind turbine about this phenomenon, they can get caught upwind and track very stubbornly!


 You might try taping some flimsy (in case they get caught in the rotor) streamers to the tower below the  rotor and possibly to the tail to help you see what the wind is doing up there.


Make the wind fun!

Victor

« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 08:47:10 AM by Victor »