Author Topic: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor  (Read 3321 times)

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DanOpto

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Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« on: August 07, 2004, 08:34:59 AM »
http://www.windpower.com.cn/


A chinese researcher is looking for help in researching tip boost for wind turbine blades.


Interesting idea.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2004, 08:34:59 AM by (unknown) »

gibsonfvse

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2004, 08:59:28 AM »
Hmm... he has graphs... I'd be interested in seeing the source.  I don't think there is enough massflow to make the idea of "jet propulsion" sound, but maybe there is enough massflow to do boundary layer blowing or other sorts of aerodynamic modifications.  All of that is assuming the air really does what he claims it does (speeds up greatly in traveling from the blade roots to the blade tips).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2004, 08:59:28 AM by gibsonfvse »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2004, 09:06:29 AM »
If I've read the Sandia work correctly, well designed HWATs with high TSRs can approach the Betz limit within a percent or less.  There is little room for improvement there.


The prototype of this mill has a high angle and thus a low TSR - already a loser.  But it also has no twist.  So the bulk of the drive is occurring on the middle and inner regions (which have smaller swept area than the outer regions and thus little power to collect) while the outer portion of the blade is actually acting as an air brake.


The comparison is between this inefficient blade with the holes plugged, and the same blade with the holes open, allowing airflow from the hub to exit near the ends.  This airflow is apparently intended to give the blade a push, something like a water sprinkler or a hero turbine, or make the flow remain laminar when it would have otherwise peeled off due to the improper angle of attack.  But what it's actually doing, IMHO, is breaking the suction in the outer section, making it act as a MUCH LESS EFFICIENT airbrake.  Sure it works better than the same non-optimum blade in its solid form.  But it's nowhere near what a good twisted blade design would do.


Also:  Air collected at the hub has to be accellearted sideways as it travels toward the tip, and this retards the motion of the blade.  To get that momentum back will be an interesting play.


I doubt designs of this, or ANY, form, will ever produce a significant improvement over a properly-designed, high-TSR, twisted blade.  You need to find a flaw in Betz' work to do that.


Now maybe some variation might be able to get a non-twisted blade to approach the performance of a twisted one, by pulling air from the inner section which is mismatched one way and moving it to the outer section which is mismatched the other way.  But given the friction in the long passage I'm inclined to doubt that it will ever do as well as a twisted blade.  And the need for an inner passage and surface holes makes it unlikely that the non-twisted format will produce an advantage in fabrication cost and effort.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2004, 09:06:29 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

LEXX

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2004, 10:00:16 AM »
Sounds about right to me ULR, also if there were to be any great increase in efficiency there would need to be quite a large hole through the blade itself so limit friction and provide the "jets" with a good airflow, this should either weaken the blade or wreak the airfoil efficiency depending on the compromise in a larger prop.

LEXX
« Last Edit: August 07, 2004, 10:00:16 AM by LEXX »

Flux

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2004, 12:50:09 PM »
Seems like a new slant on the old Enfield-Andreu design where air centrifuged through the rotor was used to drive an air turbine at ground level.


With the ammount of air they were moving it seems odd that they didn't notice any benefit if there is any. The enfield did it for a good reason,but to expect an energy gain from this idea seems a bit like lifting yourself up in a bucket to me.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 07, 2004, 12:50:09 PM by Flux »

Nando

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2004, 05:45:51 PM »
Jet tip helicopter blades were tried several decades ago.


Also,  Ram Jets Tips.


Regards


Nando

« Last Edit: August 07, 2004, 05:45:51 PM by Nando »

JF

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2004, 03:09:14 AM »
Dear Friends


This is an interesting concept - however please consult the following sources and extra material:


1: The famous Dr Ulrich Hutter who as the then leader and chief designer of the German firm of Schempp-Hirth in the period just after WW2 designed and built a 3meter single-blade high-speed wind turbine using this suction principle.

[source:  "Wíndkraft gestern und heute" - Karl Handschuh - Oekobuch Verlad Germany 1991 - ISBN 3-922964-33-8


2: The famous French-British Enfield-Andrieu 100 kW 25 meter diameter two-bladed wind turbine from the late 1950's and later re-erected and successfully operated for many years in Algeria.

[source:  "Vetroenergeticheskiye agregaty" Ya.I Shefter - Mashinostroyeniye Press Moscow USSR/Russia 1972.

translated as - "Wind-powered Machines" - Ya.I. Shefter - NASA TT F-15,149 USA 1974.



  1. : Different research papers by Sandia USA/Canada for Darrius-rotors - includingthe report - "Vertical Axis Wind Turbine Power Regulation Through Centrifugally Pumped Lift Spoiling" - P.C. Klimas, JF Sladky - Sandia USA 1985.
  2. :  And of course the different experiments with ram-jet blade-tips for lift-off rotors for different types of aircraft - done in the USA and UK during the 1950's and 1960's - inspired by aircraft design-concept work done in Germany during the latter part of WW2.


[source:  "Jane's all the World's Aircraft" - annual edition 1950's-1960's]


5:  A paper from the middle of the 1990's by the German Prof Dr. Ing. Ludwig Elsbett [of diesel engine fame] showing an illustration of a possible technology in - "Das Kohlendioxid-Verursacherrecht - Co2 ist der wertvollste Rohstoff des Lebens".

[source:  "Der Pflanzenol-motor fur die Naturwirtschaft" - yearly edition Elsbett-Umwelt-Technik - Roth Germany]


6:   Recent interesting work done by Prof. Salter from Edinburgh University in Scotland UK - concerning a specialized type of Darrius rotor-technology - and presented at a conference in Crete in 2002.


Greetings - JF  

« Last Edit: August 08, 2004, 03:09:14 AM by JF »

DougSelsam

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2004, 01:07:13 PM »
Super-Lame!

Perpetual Motion!

So the airfoils are cited as inneffective, so they will be augmented by jets, powered by a centrifugal pump, located within the existing "ineffective" airfoils.  Only thing they forgot is that the centrifugal pump is powered by those same "ineffective" airfoils.  There is no addition of energy to the system.  To the contrary there is an energy drain, a drag on those airfoils, to power the jets.

Don't these guys in China have any sort of engineering education or even common sense?

If this is really a top research organization over there, maybe they should leave the heavy lifting in the creativity department to western minds.

Then again I guess we have plenty of stupid people with no common sense and advanced degrees here too...

:)

Doug Selsam

I have solved the energy crisis.

Some of you may notice that soon.

http://www.superturbine.net
« Last Edit: August 08, 2004, 01:07:13 PM by DougSelsam »

whiskey

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2004, 03:49:18 AM »
Can anybody else smell something in here?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2004, 03:49:18 AM by whiskey »

DanB

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2004, 08:53:19 AM »
Yes...

"Don't these guys in China have any sort of engineering education or even common sense?

If this is really a top research organization over there, maybe they should leave the heavy lifting in the creativity department to western minds.

Then again I guess we have plenty of stupid people with no common sense and advanced degrees here too..."


Doug... in my opinion (no offense intended really..) it's bording on a racist sort of comment that I'm quite tempted to delete...

Folks all over the world are quite innovative.


It's easy to make a point w/o being quite so mean about it all.

A bit of a more humble attitude would in my opinion gain you a bit more respect here.  While I think your design is interesting and I applaud your efforts for exploring some new ideas, I think to claim you've solved the energy crisis is a bit over the top, and while interesting, I think your design is quite controversial in many folk's minds who have a pretty good idea about what's going on with wind turbine design.  

« Last Edit: August 09, 2004, 08:53:19 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

finnsawyer

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2004, 10:01:22 AM »
Seems to me they could get a performance boost by taking advantage of the speed (and power) boost as air goes around a spherical or streamlined hub.  Nature does the work automatically and its a lot simpler.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2004, 10:01:22 AM by finnsawyer »

Dave B

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2004, 12:00:52 PM »
Dan,

  I would like to compliment you on your communication skills. Your consistant ability to make people think without argument indicates patience and a willingness to help. I appreciate your professionalism as it is a great contribution to this board. Doug understands what you are saying and like you I applaud his efforts. With the help of this board many others will I'm sure both respect his efforts and also understand the true meaning of his claims. Thanks for all of your help.  Dave B.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2004, 12:00:52 PM by Dave B »
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hvirtane

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2004, 10:36:38 AM »
In principle I think that they can get

some more power out of it. As JF is telling

this concept is not new and it already

has been proved to be somewhat successful.


I have earlier written that there are some

other research papers indicating that

you might somehow utilize air currents

from the middle to the tips of the blades.


Betz limit is based on the idea that

the air goes straight through the turbine

and that idea is probably not valid.


An extract from my previous post

http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2004/4/26/93024/1936/13#13


************

From an article:


Alexander N. Gorban  

Professor and Deputy Director,

Institute of Computational Modeling,

Krasnoyarsk, Russia Assoc. Mem. ASME

Alexander M. Gorlov

Professor Emeritus,

Hydro-Pneumatic Power Laboratory

Northeastern University,

Boston, MA 02115

e-mail: amgorlov@coe.neu.edu Mem. ASME

Valentin M. Silantyev

Graduate Student,

Department of Mathematics,

Northeastern University,

Boston, MA 02115:


Limits of the Turbine Efficiency

for Free Fluid Flow


...


The most interesting finding

of our analysis is that

the maximum efficiency of

the plane propeller is

about 30 percent for free fluids.

This is in a sharp contrast

to the 60 percent given

by the Betz limit,

commonly used now for decades.

It is shown that the Betz

overestimate results

from neglecting the curvature

of the fluid streams.

We also show that

the three-dimensional

helical turbine is more efficient

than the two-dimensional propeller,

at least in water applications.

Moreover, well-documented

tests have shown that

the helical turbine

has an efficiency of 35 percent,

making it preferable

for use in free water currents.

@DOI: 10.1115/1.1414137#


...


The principal assumption of

the Betz model was that

the fluid flow remains rectilinear

when passing through the turbine

and maintains a uniform distribution

of the fluid pressure on the turbine.

Such a distributed load leads

to overestimating the forces

and torque applied to

the turbine and, as a result,

to overestimating the turbine's

power and its efficiency.

In reality, the fluid streams

are deflected from the rectilinear

direction near the barrier,

changing their motion to curvilinear

trajectories and reducing

their pressure on the turbine,

as can be seen in Fig. 1~b!:

By taking account of

the curvilinear trajectories

for the streams,

one obtains a more correct

turbine power and efficiency limit.


...


*
********


I'm not sure, if it is the

best way to put the air going

through the blades.


I've been supporting the idea that

it might help if you'll make

the blades wider on the tips than

on the roots.

(Contrary to the common practice.)


But I hope that further research

will be done on this jet principle, too.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: August 12, 2004, 10:36:38 AM by hvirtane »

TomW

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Re: Chinese Jet assisted tip propellor - lame
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2004, 08:36:37 AM »
whiskey;


No comment on the Chinese thing but if I did have a comment I would be a bit less of a JERK stating it.


Anyway, if it looks like it smells like it and squishes when you step in it then thats likely what it is.


Yeah, Mister Doug is quite full of [examples follow]






« Last Edit: December 28, 2004, 08:36:37 AM by TomW »