Author Topic: VAWT Technology  (Read 7256 times)

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(unknown)

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VAWT Technology
« on: September 18, 2004, 11:22:25 AM »
I was given this site and interested myself in this technology, I would like some feed back from the experts out there and there feelings or comments on this new VAWT Technology. Small, Medium, and Large Turbines, Interesting...


www.superiorwindtechnology.com


NTI

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 11:22:25 AM by (unknown) »

kurt

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2004, 11:32:22 AM »
looks like the 21st century reincarnation of the windtree to me.........
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 11:32:22 AM by kurt »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2004, 12:18:15 PM »
that site is a joke, look at this page marine/rv/home that's a Savonius rotor, at best capable of pumping a bit of water or making a hundred or so watts of electricity, no alternator is visible and they are talking about selling a 5KW version of that thing.



The site went live september 10th, and miraculously, you pop up here and start telling us about this little secret that you are into.



The ONLY reference on the whole web is the link that you posted here, which makes me think you are more than a little bit related to the people that run that site.



So, for the sake of the argument, let's assume you are part of the marketing effort of the business that operates that website:



There is some really juicy (confidential ?) information available in this directory, which makes me believe that you really are in the pre-production stage, and nowhere near ready to go live. You have done no real life testing other than one machine during several months, which by the looks of the photos is a one off, a functional prototype at best. YOU ARE NOWHERE NEAR READY.



Wind turbine fabrication is a little more than making a prototype and taking orders. You'll need to do stress tests, accelerated aging tests and so on before you can even begin to call this a product.



Probably some higher up in marketing decided that it was time for you to go out and drum up some business on the internet because your investors money is nearly burned up or something like that.



Your move...

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 12:18:15 PM by jacquesm »

troy

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2004, 12:35:12 PM »
Now now, just because the nice folks with the new super windmill have exceed (by far) the theoretical limits for converting wind power to mechanical energy that Betz described decades ago, that's no reason to think they're not completely on the up and up. (wink wink)


Come on now, this is the age of the NEW physics where anything is possible.


Finest regards to Jacque,


troy

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 12:35:12 PM by troy »

whatsnext

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2004, 12:37:08 PM »
I kind of like your handle, "New Technology Insider", wish I had thought of it. I'm a tad curious as to how your gens operate without bearings and without ever needing service of any sort. This one might need to head over to weird science.

John.....
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 12:37:08 PM by whatsnext »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2004, 12:52:57 PM »
guess what, they are looking for investors, and are considering an IPO.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 12:52:57 PM by jacquesm »

hvirtane

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2004, 01:26:27 PM »
In principle I see no reason, why

this kind of technology wouldn't be

capable of coming to the market

with quite big wind machines.


About this particular company

I know more or less nothing.


I've already earlier referred

Gary Johnson's book here

to point out that Savonius type

wind machines might be much

better than many people think.


Once more from the introduction

of his book:

http://www.eece.ksu.edu//~gjohnson/


---


Agreement on the efficiency of the Savonius turbine apparently has finally been reached a half century after its development. Savonius claimed an efficiency of 31 per cent in the wind tunnel and 37 per cent in free air. However, he commented:[10 ] The calculations of Professor Betz gave 20% as the highest theoretical maximum for vertical airwheels, which under the best of circumstances could not produce more than 10% in practical output.


The theoretical and experimental results failed to agree. Unfortunately, Savonius did not specify the shape and size of his turbine well enough for others to try to duplicate his results.


A small unit of approximately 2 m high by 1 m diameter was built and tested at Kansas State University during the period 1932-1938 [6 ]. This unit was destroyed by a high wind, but efficiencies of 35 to 40% were claimed by the researchers. Wind tunnel tests were performed by Sandia on 1.5 m high by 1 m diameter Savonius turbines, with a maximum efficiency measured of 25% for semicircular blades [1 ]. Different blade shapes which were tested at the University of Illinois showed a maximum efficiency of about 35% [5 ]. More Savonius turbines were tested at Kansas State University, with efficiencies reported of about 25% [13,4 ].


It thus appears that the Savonius,if properly designed, has an efficiency nearly as good as the horizontal axis propeller turbine or the Darrieus turbine.


The Savonius turbine therefore holds promise in applications where low to medium technology is required or where the high starting torque is important. A chart of efficiency of five different turbine types is shown in Fig.8. The efficiency or power coefficient varies with the ratio of blade tip speed to wind speed,with the peak value being the number quoted for a comparison of turbines. This will be discussed in more detail in Chapter 4.


It may be noticed that the peak efficiencies of the two bladed propeller, the Darrieus, and the Savonius are all above 30 %, while the American Multiblade and the Dutch windmills peak at about 15 %.These efficiencies indicate that the American Multiblade is not competitive for generating electricity, even though it is almost ideally suited and very competitive for pumping water.


The efficiency curves for the Savonius and the American Multiblade have been known for a long time [6,10]. Unfortunately, the labels on the two curves were accidentally interchanged in some key publication in recent years, with the result that many authors have used an erroneous set of curves in their writing. This historical accident will probably take years to correct.


---


So I think that in general VAWT machines

are really interesting.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 01:26:27 PM by hvirtane »

hvirtane

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2004, 01:29:16 PM »
A small mistake with the link.

The correct link:


http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/


- Hannu

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 01:29:16 PM by hvirtane »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2004, 01:58:20 PM »
In principle, there is absolutely nothing wrong with 'drag' style machines, savonius or otherwise, as there is nothing wrong with VAWTs or HAWTs in general.



In fact, if I recally correctly the Darrieus rotor has the best efficiency of all (> 55 %, measured and reproduced).



It's just that whenever corporations - startups really - with no track record start claiming they have discovered 'it', and that 'this is the big one' or 'the one we have all been waiting for' and oh by the way can we have some cash for a downpayment or a bunch of shares that I get all antsy.



No comments on the technology.



And anything over 60% eff is immediately suspicious, their 10 KW machine has a swept area of at most 5 meters:







To claim that is a 10KW machine is saying that you need a hurricane to run it or that you're lying about its efficiency. According to one of their 'confidential' writings they had to shut down their machine in a high wind because it was making too much power. At best that is a 3000 Watt machine, and probably less (it looks like it has a LOT of upwind drag).



That shutdown in high winds had me laughing out loud here. How about some furling guys ? Or matching your genny to your blade size ?



'confidential', 'the one we've been waiting for', 'the big one', 'we really need this', 'IPO'



I smell a rat.



I want power curves, numbers on installed base, number of machines produced, accumulated hours, engineering data. Just like what you'd expect from every other turbine manufacturer, especially a 'revolutionary' design. And preferrably corroborated by some third - independant - party. Not hype.



No doubt some sucker will buy one and we'll learn something about this thing in real life. Until then I'll be firmly on the fence. Being second best is good enough with new technology. Lower prices and the bugs will be ironed out, and if the corp fails you don't end up with an unsupported product.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 01:58:20 PM by jacquesm »

tecker

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2004, 02:30:07 PM »


   Looks like a Squriel cage  big enough though

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 02:30:07 PM by tecker »

TomW

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2004, 02:41:11 PM »
tecker;


Exactly what I said to Kurt over on IRC when it got posted.


That and it looks like a Windtree without the ductwork.


So nothing really new or groundbreaking, in my humble opinion.


It does remind me of a shill at a carnival when the one and only post by a user is this kind of thing. It just feels cheesey and contrived making it hard to believe it is honestly someone from outside the cited company. Just an opinion.


T

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 02:41:11 PM by TomW »

nack

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2004, 05:37:01 PM »
It is 5kW when you add the giant space hampster option.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 05:37:01 PM by nack »

windstuffnow

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2004, 06:13:22 PM »
   I get the impression their rating it for a months production of electric.  It sounds good saying its a 10kw machine but what it boils down to is its making 50 watts per hour for 7 hours per day (average) in a 10 mph wind accumulating the 10kw for the month.  That would make it sound more realistic but I certainly wouldn't want to pay that kind of price for something I can whip up in a few hours to do the same job for around 30 bux.  That being said and rating them the same way, I have 200kw of solar panels on my roof and a 75kw wind genny on the tower... Wow... sounds like alot of power!  

   It looks well built though...


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 06:13:22 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

T2B53

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2004, 06:32:10 PM »
I try to keep an open mind any thing is possible,

like ufo technology!

Our shop has its on model we work with its

fun.Call out his bluff with sum specs?

Some believe in the "big one",my o'lady

told me to say that....
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 06:32:10 PM by T2B53 »

T2B53

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2004, 07:07:44 PM »
Well since you asked,our model

is growing ever so closer in putting

out enough power to sustain the

box fan thats driving it,fun huh? :O)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 07:07:44 PM by T2B53 »

Electric Ed

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2004, 08:05:42 PM »
NTI, you asked "Can't believe this, can you?"


No. I can't!


EE

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 08:05:42 PM by Electric Ed »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2004, 08:25:19 PM »
I think that deserves a prize for the most contrived way of stating turbine power.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 08:25:19 PM by jacquesm »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2004, 09:24:42 PM »
Ok, I'll bite. renewable technology is doing just fine, thank you very much. I have spent a small fortune on a system that runs a very large house + workshop + office (over 5000 sq ft), and have spent lots of time researching manufacturers and products available. I have developed a good sense for what is real and what is not, because there is a lot of bs sold as 'the next big thing' and the way this particular product is presented here sets off just about all my alarm bells.



If you don't like the opinion you get then that is no reason to bitch, you asked for an opinion, and you got one, + the reasons why.



So, if you feel like coming clean about your position relative to the company whose product you are inquiring about - complete with mini marketing survey in the 'poll', and comments about your pre-conceived position (in another post, 'this is the big one', 'the one we've all been waiting for') - then you are welcome to do so. I have nothing against using the internet as a marketing tool, in fact that's how I earn a living but I hate being played for a sucker.



And don't confuse negative and objective and don't ask for an opinion if you only want to hear good news.



« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 09:24:42 PM by jacquesm »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2004, 09:33:02 PM »
well, call me uneducated insulting me is popular today, but we had a nice little picture here a few days ago of a diesel engine with > 50% efficiency, motors and generators routinely go way above 80%, inverters and dc-dc convertors do too and so on.



Unfortunately for a windturbine the upper USEABLE theoretical limit is roughly 60%.



Which means that in practice you'll do worse than that.



And almost EVERY windmill makes use of lift and drag (all but the savonius style drag machines). Nothing new there.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 09:33:02 PM by jacquesm »

iFred

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2004, 10:39:12 PM »


Even I can't believe this one, nope it just don't compute. No matter how you slice and dice it, the horizontal in my opinion will always be far superior in every way. I see no real data on it. Maybe putting a rodent inside might help get the power up their, but then again, you gotta feed them lots to produce that power level from this machine...>;-)

« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 10:39:12 PM by iFred »

levram

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2004, 01:07:01 AM »
The company is selling up to two million shares @ $5 a piece.  The "Founder, President and CEO" lists his experience as a former Vice President of Anicom, Inc.  Anicom went bankrupt and the top executives received federal indictments for fraud.  http://www.tedmag.com/default.asp?pagenumber=398


If Anicom went down that badly, I don't know if I would list that on the new company's Executive Summary page.  Be a shame if people got a bad idea about windpower and VAWTs, especially with all the inventive and industrious people who post to these forums.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 01:07:01 AM by levram »

tecker

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2004, 05:46:43 AM »


   I've hoisted a few lardge squriel cage fans up to check out the torque  and they

trap air inside this wouldn't be a factor if the top and bottom are open he probably started small and had to increase the size until the torque was enough to drive that generator on the bottom at lowspeed . That thing is a bear to keep balanced on one bearing set .

« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 05:46:43 AM by tecker »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2004, 06:07:11 AM »
wow you're sharp. I totally missed out on that.



One good thing that comes out of this is that anybody that wants information on the company will soon find TWO google links, one that points here and one that points to their site. Maybe we should put some more links up to this page to skew the google pagerank, it might save a few people wasting their savings.



It's a pity, but as RE gets bigger you will see more of this kind of thing.



I have seen the financial world from the inside for a while, and I can tell you it's not pretty. These people are looking for a new market now that the 'internet boom' has been milked for all that it's worth (google gets a free pass, even if their IPO was vastly overpriced) a new field is what they really need. That prospectus is full of it, the 'new economy' speak, they even go outright and say they want to IPO, but they have no product. petfood.com anybody ?



« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 06:07:11 AM by jacquesm »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2004, 06:22:09 AM »
Look here bud, you ask for my opinion, I give it. Then when you don't like it you call me 'closed minded'. That's pretty cheap. I spent quite a bit of time on giving you my opinion, including the fact that I think that it is suspicious that right out of the blue you sign up and post a link that has NO external references on the whole wide web to it. That + your handle are more than just circumstantial proof to me that you are not giving us the whole story.



The fact that someone else here has uncovered that the CEO of this corporation as being previously part of a fraudulent scheme doesn't help either.



The internet is a great place for launching new products, services and what not. It's a bad place if you're not clean because information travels very fast and the search tools available make it very easy for people to check out your track record. You can't 'skip town' and do it again.



The 'superiorwindtechnology' machine has more than a passing resemblance to this one:







By a company called 'ecoquest', the awea has this to say about them and on other power you may read some more.



In short nothing new here, and similar misleading claims.



The last place where you want a bad device evaluated is probably here, the guys on this board have more combined R&D hours in the windpower field than most mid sized corporations, you'll be shot down in just about 15 minutes. Explain that to your shareholders when 'due dilligence' comes up at the next general meeting.



Maybe I'll just buy one share, and come along to ask some pointed questions eh ?

« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 06:22:09 AM by jacquesm »

wildbill hickup

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2004, 07:03:35 AM »
A direct answer to your question. NOPE!!! well guess that covers it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 07:03:35 AM by wildbill hickup »

Old F

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2004, 07:06:20 AM »
(I would like some feed back )


Ok you ask for it  Toro Droppings

Toro meaning bull and I think you can work the rest out for your self.


Were are Penn and Teller when you need them


Old F

« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 07:06:20 AM by Old F »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

richhagen

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2004, 10:13:18 AM »
Now where did skippy grow up and run off to anyway?  There is a limit to the amount of energy in the wind and a theoretical limit to how much of it can be recovered.  Seems like you could build a machine like this to produce some power, seems to me that it probably would not be as efficient per unit of swept area as a hawt with the back side of the airfoils exposed on the return trip.  It would be interesting to see some truly independent test results on products like this.  Seems like it would be difficult to make such a machine economical for the mass market. I do like to see new ideas even if I don't think they'll work as advertised.  New Technology Insider, do you have any connection or affilliation with this company?  If so, I would recommend posting more technical data on power vs. windspeed, and also, DOE has a wind energy testing program, the link is:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wind_research_testing.html

I would contact them and attempt to arrange for them to run tests on the machine.  Verifiable facts are better than claims for marketing purposes.


RichHagen

« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 10:13:18 AM by richhagen »
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

LEXX

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2004, 03:48:58 PM »
I especially like the "100% silent" comment in the  "promises" section.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 03:48:58 PM by LEXX »

ghurd

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2004, 07:12:21 PM »
I didn't spend much time on that site, but I didn't notice any 'real' numbers.


Just 18 volts. Nothing about peak amps, 10 mph wind amps, peak watts, or what have you.

There is more info from places selling windmill pond bubble blowers, and those just blow bubbles!


I want to know everything about anything I buy. $3000 for the little one seems awful steep for something they don't tell anything about. My av wind speed is 5.6mph, will I get that 2kw a month, or is that only for people on Mt Washington?


Maybe they do tell something, burried deeper in the site. I just couldn't look that long. The site gave me A.D.D.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2004, 07:12:21 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

witapple

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2004, 12:40:40 AM »
Even my wife commented that this board has some of the most open minded people around, but for someone to dance in and expect great support without bringing any data to show what they have is totally unreasonable.

I think most here would agree... if it works show us and we will be ready to help but if it doesn't work or you are unwilling to show that it does, you are wasteing everyones time.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 12:40:40 AM by witapple »

RatOmeter

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2004, 07:54:22 AM »
Unfortunately,  the majority of people don't know what a Google PageRank is, let alone how to interpret it.


What's kind of funny is that now (after the next time google spiders fieldlines) the linked site will be a hit for the word fraud also.  Neat how that works.  I say so, not because that kind of mill can't produce energy, but that their performance claims are appear to be fraudulent, misleading and highly overrate the product.  I'm very put-off by the hype language on that site... it has the tone of Viagra spam emails.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 07:54:22 AM by RatOmeter »

jacquesm

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2004, 07:59:09 AM »
it's a stock scam, they want to raise $10M and they they'll fold, maybe get some dealers to pay for 'dealerships' a la ecoquest. very annoying. Gives the whole field a bad name that kind of stuff. Just like 'cold fusion' is now totally tainted (but technically far from dead)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 07:59:09 AM by jacquesm »

Parameter

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Re: VAWT Technology
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2004, 07:32:22 PM »
I had to add, the no bearing technology is in itself worth millions... just sell that... that should make you rich enough if it works. Case closed.


THanks to all who knows for thoses who dont

keep sharing and keep the faith in bez

Amen


Para

« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 07:32:22 PM by Parameter »