Author Topic: The CNC cut turbine blade  (Read 2265 times)

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wdyasq

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The CNC cut turbine blade
« on: May 12, 2005, 11:47:05 PM »
There has been some talk about cutting windturbine blades with a CNC machine.  There have also been discussions of cutting a 'master' and making blades of some fiber reinforced plastic aka 'fiberglass' - 'carbon fiber' - or possibly an unknown.


There are a lot of considerations.  Blade arifoil and twist, solidity, diameter, hub attachment, design rpm and one can probably add half a dozen more easily.  Each of these considerations can and will have several proponents and 4 times as many malcontents if one particular aspect of a design fails to meet their criteria.  Each of us has prejudices toward one material or another.  


Who will take these decisions? Who will choose the airfoil that pleases some, aggravates others and leaves a third batch of still ignorant but blaming the poor performance of their mis-designed or poorly built wind machine of 'those damn blades I bought'.  The board is full of folks who seem to have no forward vision but perfect hind sight when it comes to critizing folks work.  


A good design may take three or more sets of prototypes being built for one particular alternator.  A rotor size change, gap adjustment, stator rewinding for voltage change or different wind conditions will change blade parameters.  Will buyers be happy with a one size fits all approach and accept it is a compromise.


I fail to see any advantage in other than wood blades as fatigues tests are probably put of question and budget of such a project for 'homebuilders'. If a company designs and builds a set of composite blades, what will be their liability when - not if - someone is injured or killed when a blade breaks and part of the blade or a tower collapses due to a problem, perceived or real, with the blade?  Horror stories of lawsuits, including fraud, are common now.  Each of us probably know one or more such stories.  Painting a non-conforming fellow who has little or no electricity bill as THE   VILLIAN will be a 'cake walk' for a good attorney.


Anyone who has studied wind turbine design knows that the aerodynamics of them is complicated.  Folks who have doctorates in the field can't agree on which approach to study - and they are using 'grant money' (read that as money taken by force from someone or company that earned it and redistributed to those indecision).  Personally I believe a good blade design can be conceived, prototyped, tested and brought to market by a group of dedicated individuals.  


The process will not be instantaneous. Nor, will it be inexpensive.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 11:47:05 PM by (unknown) »
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richhagen

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2005, 06:09:56 PM »
As you know, I made some small blades a while back.  They were imperfect in many ways, some of which were pointed out in the post and responses.  Still as imperfect as the may be they seem to work pretty well.  I made a bunch of those blades and havn't bothered to update the code to date to improve the design in ways that you and others graciously suggested.  I have spent more time programing the larger, next generation, but I have no doubt that they too will be imperfect.  As far as selling a few of the blades, which I have planned,  I need to consider the liability if something were to go wrong on an installation.  I would not want to represent the blades to be something that they are not, and I do not want to be homeless when they fail, as all blades ultimately will.  As the seller, I cannot be assured that the purchaser will exercise common sense when installing the blades, and I'm not sure what if anything I can do about that.  I may have to limit, or forego making anything for sale in order to avoid risking losing what I already have.  That would be a shame.  One advantage of imports is that it is difficult to impossible to sue the manufacturer.  If I sell something here and anything goes wrong, I am easy to find and sue, even if the problem wasn't my fault.  It could cost a fortune to defend ones self, even if one ultimately prevails in court.  Rich Hagen
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 06:09:56 PM by richhagen »
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electrondady1

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2005, 06:49:40 PM »
just get them to sign a waver. it's a sad state of afairs when your afraid to make and sell some thing because you might get sued. wonder if henry ford thought like that. its unfortunate that the united states of america has the largest percapita percentage of lawyers. as well as the largestpercapita of incarcerated .  
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 06:49:40 PM by electrondady1 »

monte350c

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2005, 07:52:58 PM »
Agreed - there isn't a good shortcut to this process. Otherwise everybody would be doing it.


By the way, that was nice work on those blades on Jacques machine (I think that was you in collaboration?)


If I could throw in my 2 cents worth...


It's true there are a lot of variables. To use an example from aviation if there was just one "right" way to do it, every airplane being towed along by an O320 would look exactly the same. But they don't.


Personally I would love to be able to buy a reasonable ready-made set of blades. I have made several alternators now, and at the moment am in the process of building a CNC machine to make blades. Call me crazy but I just don't want to hand carve. I know. Crazy.


About the final design, well I would rather see a bunch of time spent on safety, rather than the utmost in 'efficiency'.


"All windspeeds for the following figures at 20 mph"


 20 foot diameter, 35% efficient, 4416 watts

 22 foot diameter, 30% efficient, 4580 watts

 24 foot diameter, 25% efficient, 4542 watts


So to counter a miserably inefficient design in the above example you could just add 2 feet to the length of each blade.


But is it safe? Will it fatigue? Or rather when?


Hugh Piggott in one of his excellent essays on this subject states that more than a few blades are made with no taper or twist, and don't suffer much by it.


So maybe we should look at failure modes - what happens to the blades or parts when they let go? Is there a way to keep them on or near the tower?


I had thought of embedding a couple of stranded cables in the wing, so if it broke the pieces would remain attached and just flail away around the tower.


This will be an interesting post I am sure!


Have Fun,


Ted.


p.s. above mentioned 2 cents worth is in Canadian funds (about half a cent US??)

« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 07:52:58 PM by monte350c »

JRod

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2005, 07:55:45 PM »
The main problem with this is you can't sign away negligence. I ran into this problem when I was toying with the idea of starting a home buisness making movie projector systems, which essentially use a 400w bulb in a wooden box. Pretty much safe, but there's always that chance that some dolt doesn't use it right, heats up and catches fire to the house. I talked to a lawyer about the possibility of having them sign a waiver that stated I wouldn't be responsible if they indeed used the product and caused  a fire. He told me that all kinds of things have disclaimers, yet still people win lawsuits anyways. He thought it might actually easier to win the suit since by even making a waiver, I knew that there was an inherent danger of a fire possibility. Just my .02 =]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 07:55:45 PM by JRod »

Matrix1000

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2005, 08:54:15 PM »
It would be nice to have a source for some good 'general purpose' 4 and 6 foot blades that were affordable for small axial kits. These small plastic blades on ebay don't work so hot on decent sized mills. Plus the first time do it yourselfer isn't going to be able to carve a high end NASA airfoil 3 times in a row depenably where a CNC would be. I would have to assume that in many cases a 'general use' blade with a good airfoil would work better than any attempts myself, or a lot of other first/second timers would be able to do. Then if I wanted to spend the time to become a blade perfectionist I could build some blades to the exact specs required for my mills.


If it were a choice between spending 20+ hours hand carving some blades or paying $35 a blade for some good cedar CNC'd ones that required a little sanding, with my schedule I'd opt to pay at this point.


Like I said in my previous post I'd be interested in throwing a chunk of money at this project to get it going if anyone is interested email me at matrixnetworx@hotmail.com

« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 08:54:15 PM by Matrix1000 »

JW

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2005, 09:20:22 PM »
Let's see here,


 Mr. Wasdaq,


'painting a non-conforming fellow who has little or no electricity bill as the villan will be a "cake walk" for a good attorney'


 Look dude ive seen airboats doing 60. So as far as the 'doctorates' that cant agree on an area to study perhaps they should start there. Ive seen some mighty fine carbon fibre composite props in my time, care to elaborate on these designs spinning at 5000rpm at the 1in dia/with a 4.5ft span. Granted the pitch and such is off to collect 60mph winds, but they can sure push um.


Look Wdyasq, dont get me wrong


 I believe in the old ways. infact at my work we use a tracer set-up versa a CNC machine because set up between configurations cant be matched to tracer systems. And you made an excellent point in the past, about the hydroscopic properies of wood as a material. Infact you make a good point here, wood blades with there current methodolgy of handcrafted production, cant be beat when the real comprimize of actual performance, is revield :) Considering the formulua of swept area diameter and actual wind speeds. It becomes painfully obvious that even at 100% gleaning of wind energy, Hand cut wood blades far exceed economically what is necessary with the (pro's)cons you describe with CNC mass production strategys. Kind of an interesting perspective, good show.


 "Hey seen any good Star Trek lately?"


JW

« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 09:20:22 PM by JW »

windstuffnow

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2005, 09:34:19 PM »
  Matrix,

    Don't sell yourself short... you'd be surprised at how easy they are once you've done a couple.  I'm not a wood worker and my first attempt of some reasonably shabby looking blades way back when actually worked fairly well.  If you look at some of the old windmills with some simple bent steel sheet, nothing elegant there, they crank.  I've even done a few sets from flat 1x boards and made angle blocks to glue in place and carve off the leading and trailing edge and they worked great.  No fancy twist and a continuous 8 degree angle.  You'd be surprised how well a not so wonderful set of blades can do.  My blades today are a far cry better than when I started but their by no means "perfect".  Even with the duplicator their not what I would consider perfect.  Give yourself a chance, make some small simple ones with scrap lumber.  Once you've done a couple small ones the larger ones don't seem so intimidating...


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 09:34:19 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

pyrocasto

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2005, 09:55:36 PM »
Sometimes you just dont have the time to make blades. It's very time consuming, which some people just dont have alot of.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 09:55:36 PM by pyrocasto »

bkrahmer

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2005, 11:15:34 PM »
If you are simply worried about legal issues, you need to know a couple terms: limited liability company; and corporation.  If you document all testing and don't do anything stupid, you will not be personally liable.  If you keep your books balanced, you can take out all profits as soon as they come in as pay.  Legal costs are a business expense and can be deducted.  Of course, I'm not saying that the possibility of getting sued shouldn't be considered when deciding to go into business, but an ethical person who follows the rules does not put his own shorts on the line.  There is insurance too...


Secondly, I think it's a great idea.  I plan to build a wind turbine some day, and I would not necessarily be interested in building blades if I could buy them at decent prices.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 11:15:34 PM by bkrahmer »

rotornuts

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2005, 12:55:27 AM »
I can see no harm in a group of folks developing a generic blade to be used on a wide variety of alternators. If the blades are designed to accept changes in pitch via shims at the mount etc. then its simply a case of determining what diameter will best suit your machine. Over a small range of diameters the effects of scaling on a generic design would be incalculable so simply scaling the tested design to provide a range of diameters such as 6 - 12 feet would be acceptable.


As for material selection laminated softwoods would provide an exellent cost/weight/strength/reliability comprimise making a project like this very practical and doable for the willing.


If so many people poke around asking about the rather unfortunate Hornet blades than surely the market exists. I myself have all the skills and the tools nessecary to carve a set of blades yet I lack the desire to attempt to match all three to a standard that would satisfy me. I hope in the future to get at least a duplicator.


Generic design cut from a laminated wood blank on a CNC sounds like a good idea for those whose heart isn't in the blades, for those of us who like the blade side of things thank god for ed's alternator kits!


Nuts

« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 12:55:27 AM by rotornuts »

OPEC BUSTER

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2005, 06:22:40 AM »
I agree that in THIS Great Country of ours a signed Waiver is the only way to go!

I would be a potential customer. I know little about blade making, however I would think for a one size fits all bigger is better.

I'm enjoying the site!


Otis

« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 06:22:40 AM by OPEC BUSTER »

Kwazai

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2005, 06:36:40 AM »
I'm no expert here-so indulge my niaevity(sp?).

I ran a cnc laser cutter for a year or so and a rotary fixture and pipe material would be relatively easy to do. the laser runs about 100inches a minute and costs(prices) was somewhere around 300$ per minute- so costs were about 3$/in of cut. I have looked at some of the NACA foils (mostly drag foils) and they look like they would be relatively easy to get out of pipe pieces-laser cut. I don't know what cnc mill costs are and was wondering how expensive a set would be compared to laser cut pipe???

Mike
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 06:36:40 AM by Kwazai »

ghurd

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2005, 06:48:44 AM »
Seems to me there are a lot of good, or at least decent blades available now.


"Jerry Blades" are only $15 per blade.


Art Randolf's 8' blade sets are around $100, hub and all.


Those 10~11' laminated cedar blades are only around $250, is it?

And he has made 17' too, I believe.

He would probably make a 6' set to fill the gap.


Those kind of prices and varieties make for a lot of choices.

Being a niche market, the only person involved (after design) to be busy would probably be the one answering emails.


I will bet nobody is getting rich from blades.

It would have to be a labor of love more than a commercial venture.


I have been wrong before...

G-

« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 06:48:44 AM by ghurd »
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nothing to lose

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2005, 01:42:58 PM »
" As the seller, I cannot be assured that the purchaser will exercise common sense when installing the blades, and I'm not sure what if anything I can do about that.  I may have to limit, or forego making anything for sale in order to avoid risking losing what I already have.  That would be a shame.  One advantage of imports is that it is difficult to impossible to sue the manufacturer.  If I sell something here and anything goes wrong, I am easy to find and sue, even if the problem wasn't my fault.  It could cost a fortune to defend ones self, even if one ultimately prevails in court."


That is a problem, you could always make them then sell as overstocks you purchased in bulk, manufacturer unknown :(


Funny thing is such type tackticks are used by big business! I know someone that bought some products that had the Made In China stickers on them. After carefully removing the China stickers they found Made in USA stamped into the item!


 If your not going to do a large volume, sell them as new still in box, or as opened never used. Slightly used like new.

 I did that with computers for awhile. I had fun building them but traveling alot I did not want warauntee problems comming up, so I built a system, used it a month, sold it used and parts had a manufactors waunatee still for the buyers if a hardrive or system board went bad or something. If I was around I would fix it anyway for people. Never had much problems, I only use high quality parts.


Need to find out how businesses like FORD protect themselfs from stupid people. I mean if you change a tire on your new car, figure 3 lug bolts is as good as 5 and only finger tighten them, FORD is not resonsible when the wheel falls off and you kill some-one! Why should blades be any different?


If you drive 90mph through a school zone, Chevy is not liable if you hit a kid.

 Huh, what if you stick a toaster on the floor and your kid sticks their hand in it, gets stuck and they press the lever down? Is GE gonna pay for the stupidness?


For one thing you are selling a kit! Not an assembled product! It is the consumers resonsibility to assemble it correctly! Not like a window fan ready to use. I think if you bought a wallmart box fan and the blade flies off you could sue pretty easy if it hurt you. On the other hand if you buy the same fan as a box of parts you have to put together you have to prove you did it correctly and it was not your own fault it came apart. Pretty hard to do.


As for protecting yourself, incorporate! Do everything correct and any lawsuits will be limited to the assets of the corperation, yours will be untouchable. It is easy and cheaper than most people think to do this. 2 best states I found so far are Nevada and Wyoming. You can incororate in any state you want, you do not have to live or do business in that state personnally. I think last I checked both the mentioned states had no State Corperation taxes, both were cheap, both allough one person corporations etc....  You can issue stocks or not, your choice, and lots of other good things. You only pay taxes on profits, so you spend the money and pay employees to the break even point and avoid large corperate federal taxes on the profits. By paying yourself and buying the products from your other businesses you are still keeping the money the corperation paid out, but now it is personall income you are taxed on, not corporate!


 If the above is anything that will help others, check into it very well like I have and decide what is best for you as not every person has he same needs in such matters. I think the details for about every state is online at the state gov site!

 Some states are bad, some good.


Arkansas just went from decent to bad either this year or last concerning for profit corps, but non-profit is still great! $50 fill in 10 blanks on a form you are a non-profit corporation, then fill out a Federal form for federal non-profit status. Easy! But I forget if there is a federal fee or not, I don't think there is.


 Something any-one wanting to sell products and concerned with lawsuits should look into. In most cases I would avoid lawers, paper work firms, and any of the other expensive crap, do your homework and do it yourself and it is not complecated nor expensive unless you choose the wrong states where they make it that way, Delaware comes to mind. All states I have checked on allough for resident agents, that's just an in state address where they can serve papers. Many firms provide that service for anywhere from $50 a year up to $200 depending on the firm you choose and the extra sevices you may choose. Some will set up a corperate bank account in that state for you and provide a phone in that state also which will forward to any where you want.

 Cost more of course!


I provide such info based on what I have researched and done for others. Do your own reseach if such things sound good to you. E-mail me if you have specific questions or need help with a states info and I'll find you the info to get you started if I have time.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 01:42:58 PM by nothing to lose »

Peppyy

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2005, 08:55:39 PM »
I would love to build my own set of blades but I too have several factors that would

make it preferable to buy a set.  


Time, we all know that there just aren't enough hours in a day.


Tools, I am limited on tools for carving. I can build a house with what I have but I don't do curves well.


Talent, I play all kinds of musical insturments,  nuff about that one ;)


Does anyone have a follow-up on those Art Randolf blades that went on one of the Dan machines? I thought I remembered reading that they went on a machine this spring but I haven't heard any more about it.


It would be a real plus for a lot of folks to be able to buy a set of "Blanks" and do the finish work. Sanding, drilling, sealing, mounting and balancing. I must say the ones made on the CNC were very nice and all but some of the hand carved blades were just plain beautiful.


When all is said and done I will most likely make a set myself before I go out and buy a set, simply because of the cost. I am pretty sure I can come up with the materials for next to nothing if I keep an eye out. A draw shave, a chisel and a hand saw are relativly inexpensive. Just have to study and learn and take notes and try.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 08:55:39 PM by Peppyy »

Experimental

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Re: The CNC cut turbine blade
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2005, 01:14:04 PM »
     I once cut a prop on my milling machine (wood) I won,t go into detail of how I did it -- BUT, I spent a week , cleaning sawdust and chips out of my machine, and won,t do it again !!

     However, some years ago, I used a "duplicator", to do the same thing -- this was a very simple creation, consisting of a wooden box, mounted on four wheels, running on angle iron tracks and a normal wood router did the cutting !!

You needed an old , or broken prop to copy and the best part, you could change the pitch, by simply putting a wedge, under the pattern !! This gave you , several props, with various pitch !!

      I went thru my old books (aviation) and think I have found the person that sold the plans for this duplicator -- and will call him today and see if I can get the plans..

      If I get the plans, I will build the machine, and offer it for use, to anyone in my area -- If I can,t get the plan, I may build it anyway, as I think I remember how it was constructed --

     I would suggest, some of you get togeather in your area, and do the same -- the biggest problem, being, to build one blade, or barrow one...

    I also agree with the fellow, that said, carving blades, is simpler than you might think -- and also, any blade design you make, will be a compromise, because of the changing invironment you are trying to work with  --- NOTHING, will be perfect --- BUT, so far -- wind is free !!  Keep working, Bill H......
« Last Edit: May 15, 2005, 01:14:04 PM by Experimental »