Author Topic: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing  (Read 2866 times)

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richhagen

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18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« on: January 09, 2006, 06:16:57 PM »
In the past I had carved 12 inch blades in a more simplistic manner, the posts on those blades are here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/2/22/111119/599

and here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/4/8/31534/30936

I received a lot of good advise, and have been able to put some of it into practice.

I had been working on a program to generate the g-codes for carving blades based upon a given airfoil dataset, and desired operating parameters, such as the desired length, the stock size, and the target tip speed ratio.  The theory for the ideal blade angle and ideal chord width is in line with the work of Hugh Piggot, which is better described by him on his web site and in his book than I could do here.  I am still working on a better understanding of all of the fluid mechanics involved.  

The story on that program was posted here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/6/11/72835/9400

The program calculates the optimum blade angle and chord width and compares these against the maximum that will fit within the stock and outputs the smaller of the two for each step distance down the x-axis of the machine which is out from the root.  It had been recommended to me by Ron that I carve the blade in four passes, two on each side, the first on each side to cut a little above what would be the finished surface to relieve any stresses in the wood, and then a finish cut as that would yield a more accurate blade.  For simplicity in this case I did not do this, but plan to for larger blades in the future.  


The program is not complete in that it is not push button simple yet, but the first blades to be carved from the output of that program are done.  I set a sample of an 18 inch blade with a TSR of 5 and a NACA4415 airfoil.  I had to manipulate the output a bit to carve the proper surfaces as all I obtained was the surface coordinates from the program, I have yet to automate that part.  I used Excell and then a Crystal Report to manipulate the coordinates.  Once that was done, I divided the code into 4 parts, so that I could carve the blades one side at a time on my small milling machine.  In all I figure that without more programming it will take an hour or two to output the g-codes for a particular blade configuration.  I figure that is not all that bad for now.  

I loaded the file on the computer that powers the mill, and set to carving the blade.  I had just started to carve the blade when the mill acted funny.  It started to drill a hole right into the stock.  I stopped the program and looked at the code.  I quickly realized that in using excell and crystal to move the data I had lost the decimal points on some of the Z axis (the vertical axis) coordinates.  Instead of cutting .0014567 inches deep, the machine was trying to cut to 14567 inches.  I corrected this glitch and started again.  I carved the back side first and the first one turned out well except for a minor alignment issue caused by the fact that I had to cut each side in two halves because the x-axis travel on this mill was insufficient to cut it all at once.  I was happy with the results at this point.





I was making 3 blades for a test set, and the next blades didn't come out so well.





The stepper motors had gotten out of whack and lost steps.  After several attempts, and a couple broken bits I was getting frustrated.  This had happened from time to time with the smaller blades, but the amount of carving with the larger blades is a multiple of that because not only are they longer, and wider, but I had set the distance of travel down the x-axis to one 32nd of an inch between steps where the airfoil profile was carved to minimize the amount of finish sanding required when done.  The straw that broke the camels back for the stepper system was that on one attempt it lost steps on the z-axis, which is the vertical axis, and actually carved the top of the airfoil into the steel surface of the vise I was using to hold the stock material.  It carved about a half an inch of it before the end mill snapped.  





You can see the airfoil caved on the left side of the vise.  

Frustrated, I switched the steppers out for servo motors, which operate with feedback.  Now if the milling machine gets out of alignment, the controller receives feedback so it can try to correct the situation, and if it cannot, then it shuts down.  





I had one more minor mishap in that I didn't fasten one of the blades securely in the vise, and it slipped while carving.  The program ran to the end pushing the blade along, and the only damage to the stock was a slight groove cut at one position out along the blade.  I secured the blade and re-ran the program and the blade came out with the only damage shown in the fuzzy pictur below.  





Everything else was uneventful, and I ended up with three blades to test.  I gave the blades a quick once over with fine sand paper, and coated them liberally with linseed oil.  Here is the front.  I put one of the 12 inch blades in there for a size comparison:





You can see the damage on the middle blade towards the left where it slipped out of the vise.

Here is the back:





This is a view of the airfoil:





It is interesting to look at the trailing edge of the blade as you can see the theoretical curve and where it gives way to a straight line as the size is limited by the stock of wood used.  You can see how the trailing edge of the blade curves up gently from the right side, accelerating as you move towards the left until it abruptly changes to a straight line.





The theoretical chord width from the model I am using doesn't hold up near the root that well anyway as it becomes absurdly large.  I maximized the chord and angle for this portion of the blade based upon what the stock would allow.


Next up will be to test these blades out.  I purchased a cheap Anemometer set and will have to mount it as well.  I plan to use the 30V Ametek motor that DanB graciously gave me when I was out there last April.  I don't know how well the power curves of the alternator and the blades will match up, but it is a starting point.  I should be able to compare the approximate wind speed with the amps out of the mill to a battery at least.  I will have to build a mount and frame for the wind turbine as well.  Also, this project is also going to get pre-empted for a bit by  an important project to build a pinewood derby racecar in the shape of a shark. :-)  I plan to post results as soon as I have them however.  Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 06:16:57 PM by (unknown) »
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ghurd

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2006, 11:38:23 AM »
Looking good!

G-
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 11:38:23 AM by ghurd »
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nothing to lose

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2006, 12:52:27 PM »
"I should be able to compare the approximate wind speed with the amps out of the mill to a battery at least.  I will have to build a mount and frame for the wind turbine as well.  Also, this project is also going to get pre-empted for a bit by  an important project to build a pinewood derby racecar in the shape of a shark. :-)  I plan to post results as soon as I have them however. "


Yes please do, am am very interested how well it works. Never saw a pinewood derby racecar in the shape of a shark before. Oh, you probably meant the blades heh. :)


Those are nice looking blades, I hope they perform well. I'm sure they will be good.

Did you build that CNC yourself? You mentioned changing the motors from steppers to servos so I was wondering. Nice work.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 12:52:27 PM by nothing to lose »

richhagen

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2006, 03:13:03 PM »
These were carved on my little taig mill.  I have a 12" by 19" table which runs with steppers right now which should be able to carve 18" blades without having to reclamp.  I plan to change the stepper system out for servo's before I use that one as it has a nice T-slot table that I don't want to ruin.  I also have my big milling machine, but it is not quite ready for prime time.  I hope to use this same system for generating the g-codes for that one when it is ready.  

« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 03:13:03 PM by richhagen »
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willib

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2006, 04:51:03 PM »
They look nice!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 04:51:03 PM by willib »
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FrankG

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2006, 04:25:54 PM »
The blades look pro... and the CNC talk had me on the edge of my seat!!!


What size cutter, speed & feed on the wood? I have a "hobby-grade" cnc config but have had less than spectacular results with wood... Typically like your original set-up missed steps and the rest is history.


Closed-loop servo is certainly the solution, but the cost has kept me out of that game.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 04:25:54 PM by FrankG »

richhagen

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2006, 03:22:09 PM »
Thanks for the kind comments.  


The cutter is a tiny 1/8 inch endmill, the common flat bottom, it is a rougher type of endmill.  


The speed on the wood is a feed rate of 3 inches per minute for the G01 cuts.  This makes for a long carving process.  I just set it up before I go to work, or sleep and let it do its thing.  


One thing I notice with the servos more than the steppers is that the movement stops momentarily at each surface point and then accelerates towards the next and then stops.  I didn't notice this so much with the steppers, but I have the acceleration/deceleration and the start speeds set rather conservatively  for the servos.  It kind of reminds me of stop and go rush hour traffic.  Since there are 27,142 points that the bit stops at for each blade, it is a long process.  


I read the project on your web page about the cnc setup you made.  That was a neat project.  I was/am trying to build a large router.  I have to re-do the linear rail mounts so that I can adust them on two axis so that I can accurately align them with each other and the screw.  For a larger machine it appears that that becomes a problem.  They also still have to be very rigid.  I have a square tube frame made and 5 foot bar type linear rails with an Acme screw.  I had planned to use that machine to make some larger blades for a kit mill that Ed Lenze had developed, but because of the alignment issues I have side tracked that project for the moment.  I have way too many open projects, and in low quantities I should be able to make them on my larger milling machine as well.  


I have also been thinking about carving the reverse images into aluminum stock for possible use in casting blades in reinforced resin of some type.  Possibly carbon fiber and fiberglass reinforced polyester of vinyl resin.  Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 03:22:09 PM by richhagen »
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willib

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2006, 10:58:48 PM »
Rich i was reading your previous post ( the 2 Foot blades), and have a couple of questions.

How many caps are you using to get  15 Farad @ 15 volts?

and what is their individual capacitance?

very neat stuff.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 10:58:48 PM by willib »
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richhagen

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 03:38:42 AM »
I had a bunch of surplus 1 farad at 5.5 volt caps.  It takes 9 of them arranged in strings of three to equal 1 farad at the series voltage, which I limit to 15.3 volts via zener diodes.  The board has 145 capacitors in total, they are mounted on both sides of it.  Here is an old photo of it.  



It is still sitting in the same spot as in the photo from the 2 foot turbine test post.  Rich
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 03:38:42 AM by richhagen »
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willib

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2006, 08:58:11 AM »
thats some nice work there..

i did some experiments  a while back with a 2.5v  110F cap from Epcos through Digikey. I would charge it up ,with the  little three phase gen i made , only took about a min of turning to last over an hour in a walkman it was fun.

the walkman uses 50 mA @ ~3V so i had to boost the voltage with a rechargable NiMH , then drain the 110F cap compleatly.

It has only  0.003 ohms internal resistance if i remember right.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 08:58:11 AM by willib »
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brushycreek0

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2006, 04:40:34 AM »
Hi Rich,  Like all your postings.  Noticed your having vise problems.  A vacuum table could be of some value to you.  They are easily made from plywood.  Shop vac can provide your suction.  Furniture industery has used them for years on their cnc machines.  
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 04:40:34 AM by brushycreek0 »

richhagen

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Re: 18 inch CNC blades ready for testing
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2006, 08:49:09 PM »
I have thought about a different chucking system, but I do not want to introduce a power consumption to it as it is a slow process for me to carve a blade.  Rich
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 08:49:09 PM by richhagen »
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