Author Topic: Don't lose your tail  (Read 2396 times)

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force9BOAT

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Don't lose your tail
« on: January 21, 2007, 07:07:34 AM »
Hello,


Over the past year or so I think I've seen two or three posts by people who mentioned that their wind turbine tail had fallen off during very strong winds.  Well here in western Washington State we've had some very strong winds over the last couple months.  Last week I made a close inspection of my machine to see how it is fairing.  Everything looked fine except for one thing.  I noticed a strange abrasion on the back side of the chassis.  The abrasion is about three inches long running in the vertical direction.  


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4772/TurbineTailSlip1.jpg">


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4772/TurbineTailSlip2.jpg">


At first I had no idea what caused the abrasion but then I realized the lowest part of the mark is the tail furl-stop point of impact.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4772/TurbineTailSlip3.jpg">


It looks like when a really strong wind gust caused the tail furl-stop to hit the mast sleeve the tail would then start sliding upward.  This means the tail must have been in the process of sliding off the tail hinge.  Fortunately in my case the tail never came all the way off the hinge but it sure looks like a possibility.  After each wind gust subsided then the tail would re-extend and slide back down the hinge to its home position (until the next gust).


I think the solution to keeping your tail on the machine is to weld a "slide stop" above the point of impact to prevent the furl-stop from working its way up the mast sleeve.  That should prevent the tail from sliding off the hinge.  You will want to make the top of the slide-stop sloped to prevent the furl-stop from getting hung-up on it but other than that this should be an easy fix.  I'm going to do it to my machine the next time I have it down off the mast.  Thought I would post this incase others are interested as well.


Thanks all,


Rob

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 07:07:34 AM by (unknown) »

Dave B

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2007, 01:23:26 AM »
Hello Rob,

  I just ran a piece of 1/2" all thread through the tail pivot and hinge with a large washer and nut at the top & bottom, kept it loose with lock tight and a jam nut at the ends. Just a thought, plenty of ways to keep it in place.  Dave B.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 01:23:26 AM by Dave B »
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Shadow

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2007, 06:57:40 AM »
 You bring up a good point. Its something I've always been concerned with too.I just made my tail hinge about 1/2 inch longer than it needs to be,(In furled position). Then I drilled a hole and stuck a cotton pin through on the bottom.Now to remove the tail I have to first pull the cotter pin. So far its working.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 06:57:40 AM by Shadow »

jmk

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2007, 07:51:38 AM »
 This is how I did my yaw bearing

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 07:51:38 AM by jmk »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2007, 11:28:42 AM »
Right:  Once the stop hits, its momentum and further furling force from wind both tend to lift the tail off the hinge.  Lifting the tail might be how the momentum of the tail's swing is absorbed - in which case if a really strong gust swings it fast enough - or a really strong wind-shift pushes it hard enough once it hits the stop - it will have enough energy to come completely off the pivot pin.


While pinning the tail pivot together solves the probelm of the tail coming off the hinge, it then leaves you with the problem of what to do with the energy from the tail's swing - moreso now that it can't be temporaly dumped into raising the tail on the hinge.  This has the potential to bend the tail, both temporarily (spring-wise) and permanetly (yeild-wise, pregressively more with repeated hits).  Eventually this could let it bend enough that the blades hit the vane - at speed, since it would happen during furling.  (Also:  The lifting force is going to hammer somewhat against whatever you use to pin the pivot together.  If it's just a cotter pin this might wear it down and sheer it.)


I'd be inclined to add an energy-absorbing (or reflecting) rubber bumper to either the end of that tail-stop or to the point on the yaw bearing where it hits - either in lieu of, or in addition to, any pinning of the tail hinge.  That would eat much of the energy of the tail's motion when it hits down, and turn the rest into a bounce-back for another cycle.  A suitable bumper for large mills should be available in an automotive suspension or power train:  On the front control arms, on top of the tranny, or on the rear axle near the shocks.  For small mills you might use something from a car door, or cut away part of the bumper from a suspension.


Adding a projection on the yaw bearing above the point where the stop hits should keep the the tail from riding up the hinge when it stops-out, even if you don't pin the hinge or add a bumper.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 11:28:42 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

jmk

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2007, 12:47:48 PM »
 I've been thinking about putting something on mine to dampen it too. I saw mine furl one time really fast and smack the stop. I was thinking of a round spring like the ones under the riding mower seats.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 12:47:48 PM by jmk »

TomW

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Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2007, 12:59:30 PM »
title says it all.


T

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 12:59:30 PM by TomW »

dinges

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2007, 02:54:01 PM »
How about simply using a rubber pad? 1/2" thick should do the trick.


Springs don't dampen. Dampers do.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 02:54:01 PM by dinges »
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RP

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2007, 04:48:08 PM »
Old valve springs from an engine rebuilder...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 04:48:08 PM by RP »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2007, 09:30:47 PM »
Springs don't dampen. Dampers do.


Actually you might get away with a spring in this case:  The spring would decelerate the tail and bounce it back, but the tail would damp itself by working against the wind.


Downsides:

 - This would also bump it over any anti-ride-up stop you put on the yaw bearing above where the stop hits it.  The spring would actually increase the forces lifting the tail off its pivot.  You'd have to pin it against flying off.  (The spring would also increase the force working to wear the pin, too.)

 - Yawing would be more abrupt and jerky, with the tail bouncing against the stop several times before settling down.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 09:30:47 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

dinges

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2007, 04:33:50 AM »
I don't think you can get away with it, not even in this case; I agree that the tail would bounce back and that it would bounce several times (depending on the amount of 'implicit' damping, i.e. friction) before settling down to its equilibrium state.


This bouncing is a stressful thing for the pivot/bearing and the yawing assembly. It's something that should be reduced as much as possible.


This leads me to conclude that for long-term reliable operation of a windmill, the assembly should have not only a means of securing the bearing (so the tail can't be lifted off the pivot by the wind) but also a rubber damper (or other kind of damper), to limit the forces on the pivot and the end-stop.


In the best case, it should be 'critically damped', so it arrives at its equilibrium position (the end state) in the shortest amount of time. Without overshoot, and without oscillations.


The original poster gave us a good opportunity to revisit the design and improve it a little more. The changes (pin; damper) are details, but important ones.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 04:33:50 AM by dinges »
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DanB

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2007, 07:34:03 AM »
I could be wrong here but I dont think we want to damp - or slow how it furls at all.  Damping (slowing) the movement of the tail coming back down from furling seems like an OK idea but I hate solving problems that don't exist.


For insurance - just bolting or pinning it on there so it can't come off seems like a good solution.


I've never seen one fall off yet unless it got hit by the blades or - a blade came off an it run way out of balance maybe with one exception, I think Marv had a tail fall off a couple years ago.


This is interesting though.  It's surprising to me because we have several nearly identical machines up here and I've taken them down and never seen such a long scuff in the paint or any evidence that the tail lifted up on its pivot.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 07:34:03 AM by DanB »
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tecker

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2007, 07:48:17 AM »
Hard rubber bumper
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 07:48:17 AM by tecker »

Flux

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2007, 08:21:11 AM »
Dan I think it is site related.


On a decent site you should hardly ever even hit that stop. On a turbulent site even below furling speed a turbulent gust will whack the tail round even though the alternator may not follow it.


All furling schemes have a hard time on turbulent sites. Damping probably is not a good idea but a rubber buffer to take the shock is not a bad one.


If the stop hits a block at right angles to the motion it will not lift the tail. It is the vector force against the yaw tube at the angle that gives a component lifting the tail so the rubber pad ought to be on a bracket at an angle to the yaw tube.


On a very turbulent site, some damping may be beneficial especially in the return direction but most dampers are a long term source of trouble. Magnetic damping would cost more than the alternator.


Vertical furling is in serious trouble on turbulent sites and they usually resort to dampers but they are damping the effect rather than the cause.


Vertical furling requires damping on the yaw axis to prevent gyroscopic forces throwing the alternator into the air and slamming it back down but that is difficult and they damp the vertical axis as an easy option.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 08:21:11 AM by Flux »

dinges

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2007, 08:41:31 AM »
"I could be wrong here but I dont think we want to damp - or slow how it furls at all."


What is wrong with slowing the speed with which it furls? Even a few seconds slow down in furling shouldn't have much effect on the overload of the alternator; the alternator should be able to withstand it. If not, it's already too close to the ragged edge.


But, when it furls quickly (no damping) large forces come into play. When a windmill rapidly furls and yaws, the gyroscopic forces on the blades are large. When the tail hits the stop, the forces on the pivot are large. We don't want to hit that stop at full speed; a rubber block could solve this last issue.


However, to reduce the speed with which it furls, a damper could be a solution; that should reduce the gyroscopic forces as it slows down the rate at which it furls and yaws.


In theory, correct damping is a good thing. I have no idea about the practical problems of damping, especially reliability issues on the long run. Hopefully others can chime in with practical ways to dampen.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 08:41:31 AM by dinges »
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ghurd

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2007, 09:08:46 AM »
Not sure if this idea counts as practical.

It would take a bit of an energy absorbing jolt to break the lever free from the neo, but maybe it wouldn't add much force when it unfurled.  Sort of like a 1-way spring?

It should have something between the lever and neo, maybe a layer of heavy inner tube?

G-



« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 09:08:46 AM by ghurd »
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jimjjnn

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2007, 09:23:20 AM »
2 neos n-n or s-s?

One on the stop and other on the tail. Of course you have to have them in a small recess so they aren't destroyed when tail furls.

May be a dumb thought but may work as a dampener
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 09:23:20 AM by jimjjnn »

dinges

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2007, 11:03:01 AM »
Actually, such an arrangement acts like a spring, not like a damper: it absorbs the kinetic energy (movement) and returns it later, just like a spring would. Unlike the rubber pad (which does absorb a bit of energy, i.e. is both a spring and damper) it would only prevent the tail from hitting the stop hard; it wouldn't absorb energy like a true damper would. It has the same downside as a plain compression spring, in that it may make the tail bounce back and forth for a while before settling down to its equilibrium state.


A true damper with magnets can be found in e.g. small analog meters, where a magnet moves past a piece of aluminium; this movement induces eddy currents, which prevents the swinging/oscillatory deflection of the needle.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 11:03:01 AM by dinges »
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dinges

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2007, 11:06:52 AM »
note that my reply is to Jim, not Ghurd; I'm not sure about whether his contraption acts like a spring or a damper...
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 11:06:52 AM by dinges »
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jimjjnn

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2007, 12:07:46 PM »
Peter, I was thinking it may act as a dampener since the rotor assembly has a certain amount of mass to stop. Just an idea. Not sure it would work. I also thought about an air cylinder such as used on storm doors. Air cylinder is adjustable too tho cold and hot weather affects it  which could be a good thing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 12:07:46 PM by jimjjnn »

TomW

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2007, 12:17:27 PM »
Jim, et al;


If you are going to find an off the shelf product to do this I suggest steering dampers for off road vehicles. No clue on cost but probably tough enough to live up there doing that job.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 12:17:27 PM by TomW »

Dave B

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2007, 12:38:40 PM »
Gravity is the damper as the wind speed changes and is what makes this furling system simple and effective. I wouldn't want to "dampen" or limit this free movement if properly adjusted. I would want to cushion the stops both for fully furled and back home to the normal position, let gravity do it's job in between. Dave B.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 12:38:40 PM by Dave B »
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jimjjnn

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2007, 02:07:26 PM »
Tom, I don't like steering dampers. If it should stick in unfurled position from rustor environment, the furling will be defeated and burnout may occur. I saw an air core bumper somewhere that has a plunger sticking out and four screws holding it to the frame. It has a piston inside with a return spring behind the piston with an adjustable screw for allowing it have more or less air escaping from piston chamber. It isn't connected at both ends so as the tail strikes it, the air being expelled has a cushioning effect and cant affect furling. Wish I could draw a pic of it but too dang old for all this new fangled stuff
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 02:07:26 PM by jimjjnn »

dinges

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Re: Magnetic damping ???
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2007, 03:11:56 PM »
My clarification wasn't very clear;


Jim's device is not a damper but the magnetic equivalent of a spring;

Ghurd's device, I'm not sure what exactly it is. :)

« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 03:11:56 PM by dinges »
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theonlybull

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2007, 04:43:45 AM »
looks to me,  the stop is contacting the main tube at an upwards angle,  this would be increasing the likely hood of the tail wanting to slide upwards.  IMHO  anyway :)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 04:43:45 AM by theonlybull »

bob golding

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2007, 03:15:03 PM »
hi all, this is the method i am using after i found the tail  sitting on the ground one morning. been up about  2 months so far with no problems. i live  right  on the coast and  get a lot of very turbulant winds. i lost a blade a while ago when the tail slammed into the  blades. thought  4 inches clearance would have  been enough. apparantly not.... just  welded a new stop on the tail so it has about  12 inches clearance now. we have  some  very strong winds a last week or so and it is still flying.


bob golding

« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 03:15:03 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

arrick

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Re: Don't lose your tail
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2007, 08:31:51 PM »
  I too think it looks like the angle is causing the stop to climb the pipe.As to what to use as a damper,how about a travel limit stop bumper from a car suspension?It would be sturdy enough.Real simple too.You'd have to allow for it's length.


  Arrick

« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 08:31:51 PM by arrick »