Converting my windmill into a wind turbine

[jeremygrech1]

Hello my name is jeremy grech, i am a 17 year old living on the beautiful island of Malta. My cousin and i have recently become interested in environmental issues, alternate energy etc.

i have an old metal windmill in my garden. it used to draw water from an underground spring but now it is disconnected. it is an interesting feature but we were wondering if we could convert it to generate electricity.

it only takes a breeze to turn the fans and im sure if i oil the mechanism it will turn easier.

i am ready to spend alot of my summer time on it and i would be extremely grateful for anyones help and advice.(i already posted this on the treehugger forum and they suggested this site)i have important exams coming up so i dont have the time to trawl the website for posts that will help me so for now i was just wondering if it is possible and worth it. thanks

photos

http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn163/jeremygrech1/?action=view¤t=windmill002.jpg

http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn163/jeremygrech1/?action=view¤t=windmill001.jpg

[Old F]

J Man

Be for the grouch  patrol shows up  quick answer no the blades are all wrong an not worth it

You really should do a quick search of the board.

 You post can seem to others  that you want some one to do all your research for I don't think that the case

Have fun

Old F

[David HK]

Old F,

It seems a bit gratuitous to 'pooh-pooh' an enquiry from people who have an established windmill that they wish to convert into a renewable energy turbine. If you look at the same entry in the Diary Section you will see that someone has - in the past - established this wind mill in a location for a good reason - wind! Perhaps trees and buildings may have grown since, but the site may still be good for wind.

Let's try and help these people instead. For example, the tower already exists so it does not have to be built from scratch. The top end and wind flow access may indeed be highly suitable for wind, but it would be useful if more information could be supplied.

By the way, Malta is in the Mediterranean.

David HK.

[richhagen]

In general, water pumping wind turbines are designed to spin at lower speeds (and higher torque) than turbines tied to electric alternators.  Electric alternators generally work at higher revolutions per minute.  It is likely possible to couple your turbine to an electricity generating turbine for battery charging via a belt or other method to gear up the alternator, but the efficiency will be very low for the diameter of your windmill compared with a similar sized wind turbine designed for that purpose.  There have been some prior posts showing wind turbines geared up by chain drives and belts in the past which might be worth a look. Rich  

[richhagen]

It may be 2 in the afternoon where you are, but it is still too early in the morning for me here.  the line "It is likely possible to couple your turbine to an electricity generating turbine" should read "It is likely possible to couple your turbine to an electricity generating alternator" Rich

[Old F]

David

Not pooh-poohing a thing  he was asking if wind pumper blades can be used for generating   electricity.An if it were worth trying

 I read between lines an knew wear he is from an was trying To head off some of the posts I knew were coming

Old F

[David HK]

Old F,

Thanks for the clarification. But I was moving ahead a little. He has the tower, and unless advised to the contrary, the wind - Malta should be good for that.

I accept that water pumping blades are of little value for wind turbines, but with more information it should be possible to guide this fellow to re-appraise his situation. For example:- height above sea level; availability of wind, local obstructions, height of tower, any local laws constraining the future height of tower and so on.

Obviously he has to provide more information before any of the wiser members of this board can provide a more educated response. But lets hope, and see what follows.

David HK

[Norm]

Easiest way would be to hook the pump rod to an

eccentric pin on a flywheel.....the length of

stroke exactly matching the pump rods length

of stroke.

   Then it is just a matter of chain drive to

the alternator. Alternator would be best as it

wouldn't matter which way it started turning.

   A real quick way .....hook the pump rod to

the pedal of an old ten-speed bicycle....the pump

rod goes down the bike wheel turns the chain

wheel clockwise.....when the pump rod goes up

the chainwheel turns counter-clockwise and it

ratchets.

   Best part.....either method all of this can

be hooked up permanently on the ground.

    Have Fun

[DamonHD]

Funny, I don't particularly think of Malta as being windy, but of course you do have plenty of sun, so consider adding some solar PV to your enterprises!

(I'm in the middle of working with a friend in Malta to try to push him towards solar thermal and hot water given how all Maltese electricity is fossil fuel and you just don't have enough for aircon in summer anyway!  It isn't done yet, but our calculations will appear here: http://www.earth.org.uk/towards-a-LZC-business.html#Malta )

Rgds

Damon

[TheCasualTraveler]

Hello Jeremy,

     Nice mill. How about checking it out and getting it greased up and spinning nice. Then maybe a little video of it in a average wind. If it spins it can make electricity albeit maybe very little. It all depends how far you want to go with it.

     If the wind is good then the tower is your most valuable asset and a new blade set and matched alternator would give the best results BUT have some fun, get it spinning nice then maybe a simple stepper motor would be a first option. High torque blades like you have would be one way of overcoming the cogging in a stepper and if cut in is low enough you will get a little output to give you the ambition to go farther.

     I encourage you to work on it if for nothing else than to preserve it. If your like us (and I'm thinking you are) you will enjoy just watching it spin.

[jeremygrech1]

thanks for all the advice guys. i will make sure to post with more details soon. although Malta is sunny we do have our share of windy days. regarding Damon's comment on solar pv ,my cousin who lives next door, uses a solar water heater and has persuaded me to get one also. he is now looking into solar pv to generate 40 % of his electricity.however solar panels are very expensive in Malta and it may take quite a few years to pay itself off. the good news is that the government has promised new grants so that solar pv will pay itself off in just 3 or 4 years .

If any of you would like to visit Malta im sure you will be pleased to know that our sister island Gozo will be 100% eco friendly in the near future (renewable energy, organic farming etc)

[RogerAS]

Jeremy,

I feel that you have POTENTIAL to make some power with the mill and tower you have. It will take some work and trial and error on your part to do so. There are several methods you can employ to explore the possibilities.

These are a few and the are others (I am assuming this mill has a reciprocating rod formerly used to draw water using a sucker rod):

1. Mount a multi speed bicycle at the base with the sucker rod connection attached to the bike crank. The length of throw on the sucker rod can be adjusted with a larger flywheel mounted to the crank. Either directly replace the rear wheel with a generation head (AC or DC) or further drive the gen head from a belt from the wheel rim to the gen head. The multi speed gear selection can be employed to match the mill output to the gen cut in speed. The chain drive might become a weak point and would require considerable reverse engineering. A limited transmission of power through the bicycle chain and need for constant lubrication need to be considered. One could eliminate the multi speed setup with a carefully selected single chain/sprocket belt/pulley final drive. The later would eliminate the lubrication and run more quietly.

.....

2. Use a "Walking Beam" setup like in the following image (which is a picture of my small Stirling engine). On the left side of the engines' beam is the displacer. Imagine that entire portion of the engine removed (as would the power cylinder section{the smaller piston}). The sucker rod would be attached here. The length of the beam would have to match the length of throw of the sucker rod. Where the saw blade on the engine now resides one could directly drive the gen head, again AC/DC. That blade could also be replaced with a belt and pulley system to match the cut in speed of the gen head. All of these directional changes in motion and converting reciprocal motion to rotary motion will require a set of robust constructional methods and will lower overall output potential.

.....

3. Construct a large axial flux alternator with matching coil/magnet arrangement to reach cut in speeds available from the low RPM output of the sucker rod. A simple wrist action coupling to the sucker rod, with heavy duty bearings, directly driving one end of the alternator shaft via an offset on an appropriately sized flywheel. This method would require the most effort in the long run as the diameter of the dual discs, magnet sizes and numbers, and coiling schemes as well as rectification methods (if needed for battery charging) could become quite complicated and costly. However this more direct approach would eliminate the some of the losses associated with the other methods I mentioned previously.

Now for a rant and a totally opinionated viewpoint:

I feel it is important to consider the fact that you already have the working basis for such a system and weigh your choices carefully. If you can establish a reliable system that produces a usable level of electrical power your rewards will be obvious on a personal level. Beyond this personal reward there is the application of your efforts to a vast number of these types of mills around the world. You can make a difference and your willingness to try should not be influenced by failures, but rather consider these as a part of the self education process. I say go for it and don't be discouraged if at first you don't succeed. Good luck!

.....

[electrondady1]

congratulations on taking an interest in renewable energy.

it is apparent that your generation will need to address the imbalances created by previous ones.

these pumper wind mills may not be ideal for generating electricity but ,

i know if i had one in my yard i'd get some sparks out of it.

the first thing to do is get a safety harness and appropriate length ladder.

grease/oil the mechanism and inspect it for ware.

you could do a search on linear alternators.

there have been some posted on this site.

 you may not have all the resources(money and tools)required.

so changing the linear motion to circular might be a bettor first project.

norms idea of using bike parts, on the ground, sounds like a way to go.

there have been a few pedal generators posted here.

creating something like that but substituting your windmill for human power might work.

it sounds like this is a summer project.

rather than build an alternator from scratch it may be more expedient to design

using a dc motor.

my machinist completely rebuilt one of these old style units and keeps it as yard art.

he has told me  it is capable of lifting him off the ground.

the whole trick is to change the large amounts of torque into rpm.

do some reading

do some drawing

post again when you get something worked out on paper.

good luck on your project.

 

[DamonHD]

Next stop 100%-green Camino!

Rgds

Damon

[jeremygrech1]

I am really pleasantly surprised at the helpful response i have recieved. thanks alot for taking the time to give me your advice and encouragement.

i measured the height and it is around 9.5m tall (not including fan). I also got my cousin(6 foot 2) to climb it so that you can see how big it is. you can see a couple of photos here.

http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn163/jeremygrech1/

when you are actually on the thing it feels really dangerous! so i will be taking electrondady1's advice and using a harness etc. my brother suggested scoffolding but i dont want to overdo it where it can be avoided ( i have a chicken coop to complete as well as a pond to make).

you have given me a lot of information that i will definately be referring to when i start this project. i will just form a plan over the next couple of months as i have my a level exams to concentrate on. thanks alot and i will update if there are any developments.  

[thirteen]

I would go up and check the blades for damage and tighteness. It looks good from a distance but a new bolt here or there might make a difference. Why was it diconnected from pumping water? If it works you could possibly sell the water for others around you to grow a small garden in there yard and pay for some parts to make it into wind generator. You might get the information off of the name plate as to who made it or off the label, if it is still has one the housing or under a cover. The manufacture might be able to direct you or send you infrmation on changing it's function to a wind turbine system. You have an opertunity to make something so enjoy it as you develope your ideas. You may never know what you can succeed at if you do not try. Good luck with your project. Just some ideas

[jeremygrech1]

to tell you the truth i don't know why it was disconnected. my house was built in my mothers grandfather's big garden. i will have to ask my great-uncle about that because he used to live next door ( my father says probably because the mechanism is rather elaborate down there and maintainance was tricky expecially if fixing it required going down into the actual spring). after it was disconnected they put in a big diesel pump which is pretty cool itself. it is hardly ever on because the actual windmill is built on a reservoir. the pump is used every now and then to top it up. ill post a picture from on top when i have the chance. it will be a waste of time to convert it back to pump water in my opinion. the neighbours all have wells and gardens so they don't really need the water.

thanks for the suggestion about contacting the manufaturer i will do if i need a part. i have no idea about mechanics etc- thats my brother's area of interest and im sure hell help me. my cousin is helping me and although we are doing our research what we lack in knowledge we make up for in enthusiasm.

[spinningmagnets]

A lot of smart and sincere people have spent years improving the 3-blade HAWT and PMA, so in the end, you may find it will be the best electricity producer per a given cost of effort and money. That being said...

This has been asked before, and I have also wondered what I might do if I got a property that had an existing wind-pumper. Many small blades will have high torque in a low wind, and low winds are the worst for generating electricity due to low RPM's.

I believe one option that might be useful is slowly raising a weight that trips a ratchet when it reaches the top. The falling weight can then spin a PMA for about a minute or so at a steady RPM. Depending on a lot of different factors, it might be generating for one minute out of ten. If the winds you have could raise a fairly heavy weight because of the ratchet gearing, you might even try attaching an auto differential between the power shaft and the PMA as a 4:1 gear-up to increase the PMA RPM's.

If you want to consider this configuration, I'd recommend starting out with water buckets until you get the weights adjusted for the optimum performance. I would want the complex parts at the bottom, so near the top I would attach a simple horizontal shaft with two pulleys. There would be a single power shaft at the bottom that the middle of the cable wraps around.

One end of the cable has a small weight thats just enough to keep tension on the cable, and the other end has the heaviest weight that the wind-pumper can lift. I would use a very large diameter pulley on the bottom to increase adhesion and reduce slippage. If there was still too mauch slippage, a more complex method would be to use a motorcycle sprocket and a dozen or so motorcycle chains placed in the center of the cable run.

Just a few ideas, best of luck, and have fun!

[Flux]

If you seriously want to produce electricity then you have a tower and you can use that for a practical turbine.

If you want to keep it as a pumper type windmill then you can probably get a little power out of it with a lot of hard work. If aesthetics comes before power out then you might try some of the crazy ideas of keeping the pumper rod, but it really is near crazy. Similarly to keep the fan and add a speed increasing drive will require much effort for little reward.

Flux

[zeusmorg]

  If you're using a diesel engine to pump water, why not look into repairing this for water pumping? This looks like an aeromotor windmill and parts are still available for them.

  Usually the leather seals at the pump end will have given out,and possibly wear to other components but you say it still turns so it may be easily resurrected.

[Old F]

Jeremy

I should have warned  you in my first post

Throw this pack a bone an it gets chewed real good   :  )

You mite find that the only reason  it was taken out of serves was that it wasn't keeping up with the demand

 With fuel  prices what they are it would be well worth restoring  to help cut back on fuel use  

Old F

Haveing so much fun it should be illegal

[jeremygrech1]

guys i am sorry i made a big mistake. there IS a big diesel engine which my uncle once started ( just for my pleasure it seems) but that is not used anymore. hehe what there is, is an electrical submersible pump. sorry. once there is the pump i do not want to mess around with that.

also, i very much doubt i will replace the fan with a more efficient modern one as that would create all sorts of new problems such as cost, permits and as well as the fact that i ( as well as my close and extended family)like this windmill as it is so much that im not sure i am sure that i want to change it

[jmk]

 There was a guy who posted his project a year or two ago. He had a drive shaft that ran from the top to the bottom. He might have even had a transmission hooked to it too. It's hard to remember it was a while back. I do remember being impressed with his performance. I would look it up but when I search I never get what I want. In fact most of the time I get zero results. I hope searching the board works better for you. This guys post showed a power station right at the bottom of the mill. Maybe one of the great link guys can find it? Good luck, I personaly think it would be easier to build a three bladed machine, but I see your point.  

[spinningmagnets]

(disclaimer: I haven't built a wind-gen yet)

I completely agree with flux, if you spent the time, effort, and money to create some type of electrical-generating apparatus from a 20-blade water-pumper, I'm certain you will be very disappointed when you compare its final output to posted real-world specs from a DanB wind-gen.

Ask if a permit will be required to convert the 20ish-blade fan to something similar to the otherpower 17-ft 3-blade. Its a lot of expense and trouble making one and placing it, just to be told you have to take it down.

Your existing prop and tower might be "grandfathered in" as a pre-existing structure, and you may possibly get it declared an historical landmark to prevent community fascists from trying to get it condemned and removed as an eyesore and an unsafe topple hazard (I know, its a stretch...), and if so, a Rube Goldberg attachment might be better than nothing.

I am not allowed to have a HAWT where I live now (damn city folk!...)

[erne]

go check out my multiblade in my photos....18kw....erne

[jacobs]

Jeremy,

I would suggest reading the following interview with Marcellus Jacobs by Mother Earth News. Marcellus gives a better description than I can as to why windmill blades are very inefficient. What you want to do can be done but I think you will be disappointed with the results. http://www.motherearthnews.com/UnCategorized/1973-11-01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx

[jeremygrech1]

thanks jacobs, i gave it a look. it is a very intersting article