Author Topic: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives  (Read 5054 times)

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Dave B

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Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« on: September 15, 2008, 08:08:15 PM »
  First off, kudos to the dual rotor design and all who have made it what it is. Long story short Ike blew through here last night with a peak gust on my Davis of 66 MPH. Determined this time I've got things right I let my 16' run through it. I have a manual brake and of course shorting switch and could have shut it down but no, I want to continue to learn how to make it better. The chart and photo shows serious wind.


  Good news, it all appears just fine as well as my 85' tilt tower. Crunching the numbers shows a peak output of 130 VAC 390 RPM into 7.5 ohms total per phase for 6760 Watts. About 1/3 of this being sucked up by the stator of 15 coils 16 guage. (glad this was very brief) I'm pre-heating water and saw an increase from 64 to 76 degrees for 50 gallons and the third phase (no temp sensor) into my 40 gallon tank. I was busy with so much I'm not certain of the amount of time for that change but could guess by the output chart.


  Lesson learned from this storm is that although my furling is set up well when there is less turbulance and straight on increases in wind speed completely furling it between 25 -30 MPH there are "freak" wind scenarios with extreme winds and turbulance with my system. It has to do with yawing direction being in or out of sync with the furled tail. I'm thinking about it after observing and will make some kind of change. Previously furling held the max RPM to about 300-325 and much less when completely furled. That's where I'd like to keep it, so much less stressful. More info. to follow as I process the data.  Dave B.

  >




« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 08:08:15 PM by (unknown) »
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electronbaby

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2008, 03:19:54 PM »
Very nice Dave, glad to hear its set up well and everything is ok. Im curious, what program are you using to log your AC outputs (shown in this posting)?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 03:19:54 PM by electronbaby »
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getterdone

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 03:40:09 PM »
dave, i'm glad to here your 16'er survived ike.

i hope my 10'er made it. it's on a 73' tilt up . i left it with being shorted out.

i'm going to check it out next week. it's 357miles away.

i'd be interested in hearing how everyone else fared.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 03:40:09 PM by getterdone »

Dave B

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 08:41:39 PM »
 Thanks guys for the comments. My success has not come without sacrifice. Last year the bigger 18' brother of this machine donated a stator and blade set to show and tell with an overspeed crash in 65 MPH winds.


 The software is called meter view and comes with the Radio Shack digital meter that has a serial interface. Cat. # 22-812 It's fairly basic but works well and will graph any scale selected with a few parameters you can select. I think they still sell this meter, the absolute best $60.00 I have ever spent on a tool and it measures frequency besides.


 I am here in Western NY and wonder how other's out there made it through the high winds. Dave B.


       

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 08:41:39 PM by Dave B »
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electronbaby

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 09:27:20 PM »
oh ok. Ive seen that meter in the stores but never owned one. Im out on the east end of Long Island NY and we had some good winds. I used to fly a 16' machine as well a number of years back. I have a 12' up now and it was fine. I seen close to 1800 watts out of it but I have it set to furl a little above 1kw. I think our winds gusted to 65 mph as well, maybe slightly less.


Glad to hear everything is fine  :-)

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:27:20 PM by electronbaby »
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ghurd

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 10:47:44 PM »
High winds squared!

We get ~70MPH about every February.  This was worse.

Nothing is quite right here.  Half way between Cleveland and Pittsburg, wind came on the day of their game.


Phone poles broke at ground level.


I know a guy whose siding blew off his home about 35 miles west of here.


My internet is intermittent at best.  Rarely available for more than a few seconds would be more accurate.  I am not ignoring email (between Yahoo, laptop, and Vista phishing protection, it's not good).  They say 2 weeks before it is fixed around this area.  Strange, but I'm told the grid at my home did not go down.


Bro-in-Law took one of my large inverters home (Pittsburg) tonight for the fridge.  Hopefully the car can keep the frozen meat solid at 3 long cycles per day, and his fridge won't kick out the inverter.  

He took a whole house worth of LED lighting devices too.  

Honest to goodness, they were using candles.  Estimate is 2 weeks before Pittsburg grid repairs are completed (they have a poorly thought out transmission scheme with wires where cherry-pickers can not drive).


Hospital had the generators going for power, and 3 or 4 (wind related?) false fire alarms in an hour.  Also several security calls.  No idea if that is normal.  I can say for certain there was not a single fire alarm in the last 2 weeks.  The staff was in a poorly hidden panic looking for the emergency flashlights, though everything was running normally.  We don't need to go back to the hospital as of this morning.

G-

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 10:47:44 PM by ghurd »
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SparWeb

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 10:36:26 AM »
...although my furling is set up well when there is less turbulance and straight on increases in wind speed completely furling it between 25 -30 MPH there are "freak" wind scenarios with extreme winds and turbulance with my system. It has to do with yawing direction being in or out of sync with the furled tail.


Always one of my favourite puzzles.  It's something I never get bored of watching on mine.


Others may have better ideas for dealing with dynamic effects, but my suggestion is to "damp" the response.  If the tail could be made to fold up easily, but the unfolding was slowed down, then you might have a system that prevents gusts, from any direction, from speeding up the rotor by making the tail momentarily unfold.


When the gust isn't abrupt, the furling mechanism doesn't get far from static equilibrium.  The mill will furl consistently and the RPM won't rise too high.


The rotor and the tail have different inertias, and different forces making them move.  If the gust makes the wind change direction abruptly, it can both reduce the thrust on the rotor (a force that causes furling), and push the tail out.  It could just as easily come from the other direction and encourage the tail to fold up, too.  One direction is safe for the windmill, the other can promote overspeeding.


A simple damper could make a tail move this way, but it would be hard to size up and fit a damper to the hub of a windmill.  Making it work in one direction only also wouldn't be easy.  Also a concern: What would happen if the damper froze up?


Still, I can't stop thinking about it.


There are speed gusts, directional gusts, and combinations of the two.  The rate of change is also a factor.  Observing abrupt gusting at the top of an 80' tower - I cannot imagine the pounding your house got!


For example, if the gust made the wind direction change instantaneously by 30 degrees counter-clockwise (looking down on the tower), then the angle of attack of each blades changes differently.  The blade turning toward the wind change (say it's the top blade, for a clock-wise turning prop) will see increased wind speed and decreased angle of attack.  Expect a small increase in thrust load, but the change in direction undermines that blade's contribution to the torque of the rotor.  The opposite happens to the blade passing the bottom; decreased wind speed and increased angle of attack.  There is more drag at increased angle of attack, which now also undermines the torque.  Blades pointed horizontally at that moment see a flow along their span which is of no use to them.  The rotor slows down and it won't speed up again until the gust can make the tail turn the mill around to face the new wind direction.


The tail, though, is a dynamic system in itself.  It's a balance between gravity that prevents it from hinging, and a "lift" load that can overcome the gravity component when the wind is strong enough.  Once the tail lifts, the angle of furling is affected by the rate of yawing rotation.  Either a gust can slam the tail down, or pick it up farther than it would normally go if it had just been blowing steadily that way.


Obviously, I like to spend time thinking about this, but I never reach a conclusion!

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 10:36:26 AM by SparWeb »
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dlenox

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 11:06:06 AM »
Dave,


Glad your turbine survived.


I know what you mean about being BUSY, at that time my turbine also was putting out about 6kw!  The previous hurricane that we got a part of, I let my 17' turbine run and recorded 59mph at the top of the tower.


With Ike I decided to be prudent and shut it down an hour or so before it hit us in WV.  This time our peak wind was about 49mph as we were farther from Ike as you were.


I have to say that I slept much better that night with the turbine shut off...


Dan Lenox

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 11:06:06 AM by dlenox »

Dave B

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 12:49:03 PM »
Sparweb,

  I have spent much time as you have thinking about the furling tail. Yes, ideally and as many here believe is always, the blades move to the side when the force is great enough to overcome the weight of the tail. The tail stays directionally into the wind and the force of the wind against the blades raises the tail. I'm sure others will explain it differently and are ready to leap at the chance but that's what an open forum is all about.


  Anyway, Bergey uses the tilt tail on their 10K unit (and the smaller too I believe) and their angles of course are all different and designed for their configuration. I have always thought that their bent tail fin was significant as well as it appears as you say they use a damper besides. Damping the return (slow it down) of the tail I'm sure is a very smart move. It still would not eliminate the radical yaw that can happen when maxed at the high or low stop and wind gusts force the tail yet harder against the stop causing the wicked yaw. This all seems rather ho hum in 30 MPH winds but for anyone who has watched this in turbulant winds over 8 times stronger it's quite a sight.


  When I lower it down here before the snow flies for a check over I'm considering tweaking things a bit with the furling. I'll try to adjust to error on the safe side, the hard part is that it's pretty good now under most conditions say up to 40 MPH, we might not see 60+ MPH winds again for quite some time. Any ideas from others out there sure are welcome.  Dave B.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 12:49:03 PM by Dave B »
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Capt Slog

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 07:11:59 AM »
I too have spent time watching my little mill in very strong winds, wondering if I will have to retreive the entire assembly from my next-door neighbours garden (or further).  


What seem to work very nicely in computer screen animations doesn't always seem to hold true when the wind starts changing direction as rapidly as it does.  I wish the wind could see the animations and behave itself.  


I did once toy with the idea of putting a "furl hold" device in place.  Something like a neo that would latch the tail at full furl and hold it there until it was reset the next day or when the weather had calmed down.  I know this would have a nuisance factor (especially with the big towers you have) but for mine it would just require a poke with a long stick.  This is bearing in mind that "full furl" on my mill is a rare event, and I don't depend on the power.


I have taken the mill down when I've heard of bad weather coming, just to be on the safe side. (it's a fast job for me).  This borrows an ethos from paragliders  ..... "it's much better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground".   :-)


.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 07:11:59 AM by Capt Slog »

Dave B

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 11:13:20 AM »
Capt Slog,

  I had a similar idea with the "catch" at fully furled using a good old fashioned gate type latch. Maybe beefed up a bit or fabricated new but this would allow a release cable down the tower and of course the latching is automatic. The cable can just hang free and to keep it out of the automatic latch mode you would just need to have an extension spring keeping tension on the release cable. It would all work fine I'm sure. The furling tail is not dependant on RPM, too many variables with the wind for that to be but a variable pitch hub based on RPM would be the greatest.  Dave B.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:13:20 AM by Dave B »
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dlenox

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2008, 02:15:04 PM »
Dave B,


I believe that I experienced a similar event with the previous 59mph winds on my 17' turbine.  I was in the basement watching readings and output (can't see the turbine) when all of the sudden it was like the turbine broke loose and power SOARED very quickly.


It almost appeared like the wind overpowered the tail and un-furled it.  May not ever actually know exactly what happened, but momentarily I saw the amps shoot up to 100!


Can't be real sure and have not seen it happen again, actually let me rephrase that: I will be sure to shut down the turbine before excessive winds (35+mph) come if I can at all help it...


Before winter hits I hope to put some sort of damper to handle the return swing of the tail.


Dan Lenox

« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 02:15:04 PM by dlenox »

tmcmurran

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Re: Yikes it's Ike - 16 foot survives
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2008, 09:54:37 PM »
Just happy that I do not need to sit and watch my turbine when the wind speeds hit gusts of 70mph.  Seems to becomming more common these days.  Oh the joys of living right on the south west coast of Newfoundland.


I have gone out to our weekend place to find the turbine stuck in full furl with no wind.  Seems that if it is nailed by a stray gust of over 120kmh it has a hard time droping back down.  Did place some lithium grease on the pivot that has seemed to help, but I am thinking that the salt air can cause havoc on the moving parts.





As you can see from the average ws readings I am in a pretty decent location save for the summer when we do not really need much power anyway.  Now that I have placed the turbine another 20 feet higher things are picking up till the next big blow.  Just missed Kyle so that saved me a 4 hour trip to do a inspection. :)

« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 09:54:37 PM by tmcmurran »