Author Topic: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??  (Read 1988 times)

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sahlein

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5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« on: October 25, 2005, 08:46:04 PM »
Hi All,

I am an early-retired industrial electrician.

I have done maintenance in several large production facilities, so I am comfortable

with building almost anything.

My selected site for my retirement home is going to be in West Texas,

very close to some commercial wind turbine installations.

My home will be "scratch-built" with close attention paid to reduced

energy consumption.

I plan to use propane for most of my energy needs during the construction phase.

WHY do I not see more turbines with 5 or more blades??

I need something that will work in low winds 4 to 8 mph.  There will be no problem to build 2 wind generators on my site.

Any ideas??

Joe
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 08:46:04 PM by (unknown) »

Hank

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2005, 03:37:19 PM »
Joe,

I'll try to field your question.

Generally, the more blades you have the less efficient the system is. A one bladed system will be the most efficient however balance will be an insurmountable problem. Two bladed turbines solve the balance problem however you will get shudder as the system yaws. Three bladed systems overcome both the balance problem and shudder but at a slight cost of efficiency therefore that is why you see a lot of these.

Also, the fewer blades you have the faster the turbine will spin. More blades on the other hand will give you less rpm but more torque.

In a low wind site (like yours appear to be) you may want to use a rotor with more blades but you may have to "gear it up" at the generator head to get the rpm necessary to get usable power (also a function of rotor diameter).


Old water pumping windmills used a lot of blades as they needed torque and not high rpm to pump water.


Hope I'm not off to much on this and hope others chime in.


Hank

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 03:37:19 PM by Hank »

BoneHead

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2005, 03:39:45 PM »
I was looking at the condor the other day. It's supposed to be effective from 1.8 mph and up. It's a six blade design but they want $599 just for the blades...lol.


You could probably come up with something very similar to the blade angle just from the photo. You'll have to look for it, I don't know if the blade picture is on this page or not.


http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/bladekitsEXTNMOV.html

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 03:39:45 PM by BoneHead »

bobn

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2005, 04:23:57 PM »
Generally  more blades  is better. An infinite number of infinatly narrow is blades is theoretically the best. However after 7 or so  ya kinda reach a point of diminishing returns.


see chart


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/energy-stuff-and-more/blattzahl?full=1


Bobn

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 04:23:57 PM by bobn »

wdyasq

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Less than Honest
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2005, 04:56:52 PM »
The link you have posted has proven to advertise products in a less than honest methods. IMO they charge two to three times the prices one can find the same product on other sites.


Ron

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 04:56:52 PM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

sahlein

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2005, 05:16:53 PM »
Thanks guys.....

The chart didn't tell me anything.

The "Condor" seems to have the right idea, but it's too small.

Guess I'm back to "Serve thyself if ye be well served".

What I really want is a system that is a combination of wind and solar

using the propane generator as back-up and also when I run mill, lathe and

the welder.

I figure that I can run the house on 500 to 750 watts unless I fire up the

machines in the shop.  Then I will have to use the generator.

That is probably a rather high estimate too.

Also, I don't want to see the propane delivery guy more than once a year.

I'm trying to look at the wind machines in a "worst case" light.

Further comments wil be welcomed.

Thank you for your time.

Joe
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 05:16:53 PM by sahlein »

hiker

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2005, 05:21:18 PM »
just a few shots of my 4 blader--it breaks down so i can store it in my motorhome..

8ft sweep on blades--hub was made up from 3 -3/4"plywood 12" disks...

i put the angle in the hub --so i didn"t have to do a whole lot of cutting on blades-airfoil on back--flatten out the leading edge down to tip of blades..

its going on my 12"sawblade alt--3 phase 9&12[star]may change over to delta after i test the prop........the blades are made for speed low angle and high speed airfoil on back.......well time to drive down to the coast and check it out.....









« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 05:21:18 PM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

motorhead2

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2005, 05:35:23 PM »
sahlein your the man to settle the vawt vs hawt war with all the time on your hands.Here is the plan.Build a 8ft vawt and 8ft hawt then put the same gen on each and mount them at the same height and record the data and post it.Both with airfoil blades.I built a 8ft 5 blade hawt this spring thinking like you are.The slightest wind shift would stall it or slow it down inlow winds.Then I built a small vawt only 2ft blades and wind direction had no effect on it.In conclusion from my research I think 3blades are the best for both turbines.Remember Junkyard Wars coffee grinding.Im up to 8ft now and working on the gen.WOW .Anyway have anice retirement and dont forget your family.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 05:35:23 PM by motorhead2 »

Hank

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2005, 05:54:52 PM »
Just one comment. If in fact your winds are in the order of 8 mph you will need a rotor (prop.) of approx. 38 feet in dia. to extract 750 watts of power. As far as the charts there are additional charts (you will have to go to the other pages on that site) that compare different rotors vs. efficiency. http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/energy-stuff-and-more/mills


Hank

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 05:54:52 PM by Hank »

BoneHead

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Re: Less than Honest
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2005, 06:05:30 PM »
Which is exactly why I silently suggested reverse engineering the blades from the photo...lol.


There isn't a set of blades in the world worth $600.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 06:05:30 PM by BoneHead »

MelTx

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2005, 07:00:54 PM »


  I have made several Gennys.

      One kind is made of AC motor it has 6 blades 7 foot dia.These blades are made from a plastic barrel..I use a 60 tooth chain sprocket with direct drive on the prop, and 12 tooth on genny shaft.If the prop is turning 100 rpms the genny is doing 500 rpms making usable power in low wind.....but it wont turn very fast...


     The other kind is a duel rotor 3 blade 10 foot dia .. and one is three blade 8 foot dia..In a 15/ 20 mph wind they go 500 upto 1000 rpms.One advantage is when the duel rotors get going they seem to keep going a lot longer that the 6 blade gennys.

    So there is power to be had in almost all winds....Hope this helps some  MelTx



« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 07:00:54 PM by MelTx »

rotornuts

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2005, 07:15:38 PM »
For low winds in an Hawt configuration (horizontal) I'm of the opinion that fewer is better (perhaps stick to three for simplicity). I think the trick is to increse the blade width (cord) over that recommended for a regular machine. You don't see airplanes with 5 wings anymore because the parasitic drag from non productive and productive portions of each wing is killer.


Seeing as how removing the part of a wing that is producing lift to reduce drag is extreamely counterproductive you can (and they have) reduced the number of nonproductive portions like  the tips and the wing/body connections etc. Of course a blade profile that has a really good lift/drag ratio helps alot too.


When searching around the web for good blade profiles remember that the wind speeds across you turbine blades would send almost all airplanes into a nosedive be carefull to locate profiles that are designed for low windspeed (low RE -reynolds number-) applications. Generally the blades will be thicker and shorter in relation to thier width. Wide, thick and stubby wings are called high aspect ratio wings and are generally used for heavy lifters and are considered innefficient but I think people make a mistake when they apply the low aspect ratio theory to a low wind speed wind turbine.


In short I say go with three blades that are thicker, wider and shorter in relation to thuer width than you'd normally see. You may loose some high wind efficiency but I'm confident you'll pick up big time on the low end.


Mike


P.S. The only airplane designer I can think of who bucks the fewer is better concept is Burt Ratan and I'll admit it's hard to argue with his genius but he also does alot of carefull work to reduce parasitic drag from the wingtips and wing/fuselage areas.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 07:15:38 PM by rotornuts »

sahlein

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2005, 08:36:39 PM »
I do see your point about going with wider blades.  (Remembering C-130 props)

Maybe wide blades mounted out on spars would give the blades some leverage.

I also appreciate the person who mentioned a 38ft prop.  However, I don't see

where using 2 20ft ones would be "undoable".  In fact, I'd rather have 2 anyway.

I appreciate all the input thus far.  I'm not skittish about doing a lot of work

on this other than that I would like to be finished in under 3 years!

Thank you all!

Joe
« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 08:36:39 PM by sahlein »

wdyasq

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Where?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2005, 10:44:18 PM »
Joe,


You will need to do a lot of research before you start -


If you are near commercial turbines your wind speed will be above your 4 to 8 mph.  It would take 4 - 20' mills to equal one 40' mill.  When the 'Blue Norther' comes through you may find your mills several miles South of where your towers are and in kits.


Read up a bit and good luck - I am curious as to where you are.


Ron

« Last Edit: October 25, 2005, 10:44:18 PM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

sahlein

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Re: Where?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2005, 04:46:22 AM »
Well, I'm not there yet... just considering.  There's a place about 200 miles

East of El Paso.  The U.S. wind map has a big red spot right there.

I've been watching the weather for about 6 months and it looks like it's

wind is usually around 8mph.  The weather report comes from a town about 30 miles to the west (Marfa, TX).

I really don't have to be there, it just looks promising and the property is cheap.

Ain't no way I'm going back to my hometown... Gulfport, MS!  Been away too long.

You can do a lot with an occaisional 70mph wind but you need an awful big battery

between storms.

This isn't going to be a completely wind powered place either.  I'll have some

PV's too and 850gals of propane to back that up.

The wind part is what I have to figure out.

Still working on it.

Thanks,

Joe
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 04:46:22 AM by sahlein »

wdyasq

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Re: Where?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2005, 07:46:37 AM »
Wind map - http://shurl.net/gW


More wind - http://shurl.net/gX


Well, the only thing 30 miles East of Marfa is Alpine.  And one has to pass the 'Mysterious lights of Marfa' getting there .... be careful.


As the maps show, there are some wind 'hot spots' in the area.  Average wind speed will be in the 8-11 mph range except for those.


Fortunately, that area has a climate suitable for low-energy living. The humidity is normally low, the skies are clear and the nights cool.  I think I could live on 500W of solar panels and 50 gallons of propane a year in that climate.  My greatest concern would be the supply and amount of water for gardening.


Ron

« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 07:46:37 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

sahlein

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Re: Where?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2005, 08:41:08 AM »
 The climate did have a part in my looking there.

The water isn't that much of a problem.  Only going to grow basic veggies.

Joe
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 08:41:08 AM by sahlein »

finnsawyer

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2005, 09:07:43 AM »
AS I see it, if you use the same profile and scale blade width and thickness the same in going from three blades to five blades you should get the same performance overall.  This should be true as the equations for lift and drag coefficients scale the same.  One advantage of using the narrower blades would be less material needed for the blades.  You also could follow the blade pitch profile more closely as you approach the root.  A 2X4 would allow more twist toward the root than a 2x6, for instance.  The blade designs you see here don't have much twist toward the root.  To compensate, the blade width is increased toward the root, which increases drag.  If you put more twist toward the root, you can make the blade narrower there and decrease drag for the same lift.    
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 09:07:43 AM by finnsawyer »

bobn

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Re: 5--Bladed Turbine..... Why not??
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2005, 09:45:13 PM »
The chart in english. This chart contains a great amount of data. The other version is a bit better quality so once you understand what it says you may wish to look at the german version.


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/energy-stuff-and-more/chart


Bobn

« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 09:45:13 PM by bobn »