Author Topic: axial flux verus radial flux  (Read 7600 times)

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fanman

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axial flux verus radial flux
« on: January 11, 2006, 12:19:21 PM »
mornin

everyone seems to be making these axial flux machines i assume for the ease of doing it and for the great low wind payoff, but im wondering how much more efficient is the radial type machine, ive built a three phase radial machine, and it works great, i am going to build a axial flux here shortly, ive noticed alot of stator overheating problems and such with these things, i just want to do this right the first time so there is no mistakes   any thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 12:19:21 PM by (unknown) »

veewee77

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 05:27:51 AM »
Well, with my limited knowlege about these things, I would say that the axial flux machines with dual rotors will be more efficient than the radials for several reasons.


First, most radials have magnets only on one side, meaning less flux.


Second, radials are heavier, so power to weight is less.  ..


I may be all wet, but the others can correct me if I am wrong. . .


Doug

« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 05:27:51 AM by veewee77 »

wind4Reg

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 06:14:04 AM »
Interesting question, so to put them on a more even playing field, lets assume that they both have the same amount of wire for their coils and they both are forced to use permanent magnets that add up to the same surface area and thickness.

Given these restrictions, which would be better?


wind4Reg


 

« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 06:14:04 AM by wind4Reg »

Flux

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2006, 06:50:20 AM »
It is not that easy to compare as the same conditions rarely apply. Axial is easy for home construction as there is no significant machining required but that does almost dictate the use of an air gap alternator. You could make a radial air gap alternator that would have similar characteristics but it is an awkward construction.

Similarly you can make an axial with slotted iron core but it an awkward thing.


Personally I think the issue comes down to your facilities, what you want to scrounge compared with what you want to buy and how much benefit you place on the lack of iron loss and hence better VERY low wind performance. I think many take this low wind bit too far and loose out but it does depend on the wind area and the type of loads that you use.


For large power machines for heating there is no point in worrying about a bit of iron loss, there is no heat in low winds but if you want to charge batteries for low winds to have light and other non heating power then that may be a different issue.


You will use less magnets for the same output with a slotted iron core and if you can scrounge the core from a scrap motor it will be cheaper. If you considered the cost of making your own stator core for a one off machine then it would be cheaper to buy some bigger magnets. Iron cored axials are not attractive as there no cores to scrounge and even without slots good core material puts the cost way up.


I have built several machines of what I will call the brake drum type using motor cores but not using the slots. They are a radial design with outer rotating magnets and the coils are stuck on the smooth laminated iron surface. Air gap single rotor in effect. The magnet requirement is between dual rotor and slotted core, they don't cog, the iron loss is much less than slotted cores, they are not reactance limited and with the coils stuck to an iron core the cooling is better and you can do a 2 layer winding with plenty of room for the ends and a single coil thickness in the gap.


They do need machining of the magnet drum, it is hopeless trying to find ready made things the right size.


I like the dual rotor axial design for its absolute simplicity and the main criticism of stator heating can be solved with converters to match the voltage.


If I was forced to avoid any form of electronic conversion then I would probably fall back on the drum type radial but I have no objection to machining.


For heating use there is a strong case for conventional radial with slotted cores, but they are difficult to design, an absolute pain to insert the rotor or remove it and I don't like magnets exposed to centrifugal force.


As I have often said there is no perfect design and efficiency is a term that has little meaning. Without electronics if you make the efficiency over 80% it will stall and be crap. If you want maximum efficiency in minimal winds then go axial dual rotor or radial drum if you can build it. If you can stand a bit of iron loss want cheap magnets and are willing to scrounge motor cores then go for a radial motor conversion.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 06:50:20 AM by Flux »

willib

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2006, 08:03:37 AM »
Nice summation !.

i have one question, about your statement "Without electronics if you make the efficiency over 80% it will stall and be crap" which type machine were you thinking about when you made this statement?

Does'nt stalling depend on the size of the blades? and the torque that they can put out?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 08:03:37 AM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

Flux

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2006, 08:27:41 AM »
I should have said that this applies to battery charging where volts are clamped, it does not apply to heating and I was also referring to alternator efficiency not overall.


If you want to work over a significant wind speed things are worse and 50% is nearer the truth. If you are prepared to ignore winds below 10 mph then you can squeeze the efficiency up to 75 % or a bit more,


It is a trade off between blade size and alternator efficiency. If the alternator is too efficient and you stall, bigger blades will fix it if you can deal with the change in cut in speed but forcing more power out of that alternator will result in driving its efficiency back down, so you get more total power, better aerodynamic efficiency but the alternator efficiency goes back down.


The narrower band of wind speed you choose to work over the higher efficiency you can use.  It is rather unfortunate that with the cube law power curve matching becomes a pain if you want to use the lower winds. If you cut in at 15 mph you could get a good track up to about 30 with a good alternator efficiency.


Trying to fit a straight line to a cubic curve is the basic problem.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 08:27:41 AM by Flux »

willib

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2006, 06:38:10 PM »
sorry but i'm  not folliwing you on alternator efficiency ? i am  talking about charging a battery, btw.

you said "If the alternator is too efficient and you stall, bigger blades will fix it if you can deal with the change in cut in speed"


ok bigger blades will run slower which will lower your cut in speed, i get that..

your next statement is puzzeling ? " but forcing more power out of that alternator will result in driving its efficiency back down"


how so ? and under what conditions are you talking ?

« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 06:38:10 PM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

Flux

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2006, 07:22:12 AM »
The bit we are bothered about here is the copper loss. A winding will have a certain resistance and when you produce a load current it has also to flow through the internal resistance. Think of a simple single phase case. If you have a load such that 90% of the volts are produced across the load and 10% is lost in the winding then you are running at about 90% efficiency.


If you take this alternator with a little prop then the prop will stall but the alternator efficiency is high.


Now add a big prop and force the alternator to feed more current into your battery ( it is working into a lower load resistance in effect). The external load voltage will stay the same but the internal drop will increase in proportion to the load current squared x the internal resistance. Efficiency has gone down.


If you keep the same cut in speed your big prop has been able to prevent stall because the extra power you have produced is at the expense of the alternator efficiency.


Now keep the same prop, make a bigger alternator that is 90% efficient at the new power level and you will be back to being stalled.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 07:22:12 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2006, 08:00:26 AM »
Sorry I think I had better correct an error in that, if you are struggling, it won't help if I add confusion.


I am so used to think about stator losses in watt that I forgot I was discussing internal volt drop.


The internal volt drop depends on the current and the internal resistance ( power is as I stated)


The implication is still the same, more current more internal volt drop so lower efficiency. The efficiency falls as you increase load current and so what may have a high efficiency with the small current a small prop can produce will have a lower efficiency when forced to produce more by a larger prop.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 08:00:26 AM by Flux »

paradigmdesign

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Re: axial flux verus radial flux
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2006, 09:35:11 AM »
Radial flux gennys have the advantage of being able to get more power out of a smaller diameter, and they require less magnets.  Axial flux gennys are about 100 times easier to build. That is why I am building axial flux.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 09:35:11 AM by paradigmdesign »