Author Topic: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase  (Read 15604 times)

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zubbly

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2006, 02:54:01 PM »
hi jerry!


 a few questions here that sort of depend on understanding a few other things first before the other can be properly understood. (did that sound right?), anyways, i know you have a good basic knowledge, so i will attempt to explain best i can. sometimes i even have to go over basics myself before i get a better understanding of what is going on. so will start with your last question first.


"The single phase motor uses 12 amps at 120 volt = 1440 watts. Why is the 3 phase concidered more eficient?"


ok. first, and this will be just a very basic way to look at it, a 1hp motor is 746 watts output. power consumption is 1440 watt

          746 divded by 1440=.518  your motor is basically 51.8% efficient.


if you draw out a single phase sine wave, basicaly you have 2 power strokes if i may put it that way. one on the way up, and one on the way down. when the stroke stops to go the other way you basically have no power going on. this is between "cycles". the gap between one cycle and the next, basically have wasted space between them where there is nothing being accomplished. now if you are to draw in a second and 3rd sine wave between the power strokes of the single phase sign wave, you are now "more" efficiently making use of the available stator core. now, not quite exactly as i say it, but when 1 phase of the 3 is dead, you have something or quite a bit comming from the other 2 phases. a three phase machine output is always a combination of the total 3 phases combined. the same space in the core is utilized much better working between 3 phases rather than one. the 51.8% is a representation of how much output is derived from the input. material quality, design and mechanical losses all contribute to the actual efficiency.


next. the 3 phase 1hp motor.  still 746 watts.  it should be viewed as a single unit rather than 3 seperate phases as this is how it is designed and works. all 3 phases work together.


              746 divided by 874=.853  your motor is basically 85.3% efficient


so now we have gone from a 1hp single phase @51.8% efficiency to a 3 phase 1 hp with 85.3% efficiency. this is the result of multiple phases working together.this is why 3 phase cores are smaller than 1 phase cores for the same given horsepower.  you could view it as 1 man rowing a boat, he has to row like hell, and there is a "lag" between strokes. with 3 men rowing, while 1 is between strokes, the other is in full power stroke and the other is partially into the power stroke. the boat is moving further, easier, and more efficiently with less effort from the 3 men. basically, more efficient.


the difference you see between some motors amperage ratings may depend on the service factor, quality and design of the motor, or even if it has running capacitors which always stay in circuit on the start winding. these cpacitors serve to lower the start winding current draw and also to add to the total eff of the motor.


  "Higher voltage in delta confuses me I thought star wasc higher voltage?"


lol, seems to be quite a bit of debate on the subject lately and i think quite a bit of misunderstanding from a few people also.

  lets first speak about how it works on motors, and why it is used.

any motor can be designed and wound to work on star or delta connection. star connection is generally used on smaller motors and larger motors are usually based on delta.  delta is often used in conjunction with star to aid in the starting of large  high inrush current that they demand during start up and as a means of creating what is known as a "soft start". a soft start demands less current draw and also reduces much of the harder mechanical load on equipment during the starting transition to full speed. by having a star delta start motor, the inrush is reduced because the phase in star, only "sees" 58% of the line supply voltage. when the motor is up to approx 75% speed, the motor contactors change over to connect the phases in delta, and now allow the phases to "see" 100% of the supply voltage. this creates the soft start.


if you draw out 3 phases in the delta configuration, you can see that each phase is connected to 2 power lines. this is where the phase sees 100% of the supply voltage. if you draw out 3 phases in the star connection, you can see that each phase receives voltage from 1 power lead and from the end of another phase. now the phase only sees 58% of the supply voltage.  that 58% figure is a most valuable tool for anyone to remember. it is the basis for much design work.


now to speak of star/delta in the use of wind alternators.


for easy understanding and to explain what i mean, lets use a total of 100 turns for a phase and 12 volts as a number to work from.


with the alternator up to cut in speed, we are seeing 12 volts. the 12 volts is derived and measured from 2 of the three power lines. it is also being derived from the combination of 2 phases. if the same winding was connected in delta and at the same rpm as star, we would see 58 volts measured between any 2 of the 3 power lines, because the voltage is only being derived from 1 phase. refer to a delta diagram to fully see and understand this.


to make the alternator put out the same 12 volts and at the same speed, you would have to take the 100 turns in that phase and multiply it by 1.73. so now we have 173 turns in the phase to give you the same voltage as star at the same speed. 1.73 is just the inverse of 58%.


if we take an alternator that puts out 12 volt at 200 rpm connected in star, and wanted to connect it in delta and get 12 volt, we would have to take the 200 rpm and multiply it 1.73    200 x 1.73=346 rpm.  this is the basis and use of a star/delta switch for genny use.


a genny connected in star will give you cut in at whatever rpm you design it for. as rpm builds after cut in, it will get to the point that the prop may wish to stall. when this situation is happening or just before, a installed star/delta switch will kick in to delta. when it goes to delta, it drops the voltage of the 3 phase and also drops the current. it then allows the prop to gain more speed and gain more avaiable watts. basically, it allows the prop to get ahead of the genny rather than the prop starting to lag behind the genny which causes the stall. i am just getting into this a bit as it may give some of the others new to this genny building stuff a better idea as to what is actually taking place. the stall problem can be overcome from simply using a larger prop, but the ideal situation is not to my knowledge.  a smaller prop can be used with a star delta switch and reap the benefits of both low and higher speed wind.


a genny designed to operate only on star or only on delta and at the same given cut in rpm, will really not benefit one way or the other. apparently some dual rotor coreless units have less problems from parasitic losses using the star connetion as apposed to the delta connection. i cannot comment on thsi as i have never completed a coreless dual rotor genny.


sorry to have babbled on too long jerry, but this is just how i like to explain things. hope this is what you were looking to have explained.  this is how i view it.


by the way!  i just installed a star/delta switch on my 1.5hp conversion. the only thing that controls it is the wind blowing by a pipe that creates vacumm that in turn controls a vacumm switch with a normaly closed and normally open set of contacts. the switch then controls 2 3 pole contactors that change the genny from star to delta. it is totally self powered from the ac side of the genny.  so far, seems to be extremely promising. i will post on it when i have more data. i am a bit electronic parts building "challenged"  this works for me  :)


really appreciate and enjoy the sharing of your experiments.


have fun!!!!

zubbly

« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 02:54:01 PM by zubbly »

TomW

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vacuum switch, Neat idea!
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2006, 04:48:27 PM »
Z;


Nice explanation!


I like the vacuum switch idea for several reasons but mostly because the controls are on the ground and lightning probably won't hurt your "sensor tube" or whatever its called.


Can't wait to hear how it works.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 04:48:27 PM by TomW »

oztules

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2006, 05:57:49 PM »
Well.....looks like your on the money again Flux. 12 pole arragngement runs beautifully well as a motor. wired for 16v 50zh, runs bit less than 500 rpm. 24 coils all 15 turns. good little test for winding the real one later, plus it only takes an hour to wind different configs 36 pole, 18 pole, 24 pole 12 pole so far. Only 12 has run properly with no overcurrent problems.


However, getting anything out of the 12 pole as a gennie has not been particularly fruitful.


"Beyond 8 poles the leakage flux, slot harmonics and the drastic effect of a minute air gap on power factor will be a major problem with an induction machine"


truer words were never spoken. I have trouble increasing the input voltage (15.8v under run conditions) to more than 16.0 when I over drive the motor (using variable speed milling machine for drive source) If I overdrive beyond that small increase, the voltage goes down rapidly to 14.7 to reflect the mismatch  ie very asynchronous conditions. So something learnt. If we over drive, the slippage works in both directions appaprently. next step is to wire up 8 pole config.  and get some comparative results so that I can make a workable hypothesis from which i can extrapolate some more useful output. It will I fear confirm your darkest warnings, and will be contrary to my forlorn hopes. However, am learning along the way......This wire should start to wind itself soon, it has had enough practice winding on and off the stator.


  any further dire warnings will be greatfully acknowledged, but probably ignored until I have fallen victum to them .......only then will I realise how smart i should have been to take heed


Your input is appreciated


........oztules

« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 05:57:49 PM by oztules »
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hvirtane

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2006, 03:35:45 AM »
However, getting anything

out of the 12 pole

as a gennie has not

been particularly fruitful.


Did you get anything out of it?


It might be the case that it

will not work well. I think

that the problem is because

the poles changing current

direction and also the rods

in the rotor are so near

each others that they will

start interfering with 12 pole

machines. There maybe should

be something in the rotor

especially to prevent this

happening.  


The machine probably should

be made with a much bigger

diameter to make it functional.


That is the reason I started

to think that we might need to make

the whole thing ourselves.

I think that making it axial

quite similar as two rotor

permanent magnet axial

alternators might work.

It there are two rotors,

it might work without iron.

Actually I've never heard

about this kind of machine

made, it is just an idea.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 03:35:45 AM by hvirtane »

oztules

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2006, 04:04:43 AM »
Hannu, There was no giddy excitement here, I could not get any useful or measurable output from this motor. However, it had only 15 turns per coil, so it may be that because the ac source was pretty low impedance, and the winding no was very low, it may have contributed something, but the low impedance from the ac transforner (16v source) masked it.  I will wind eight poles and see if i can see a difference then, if not then 4 and see, It may then prove that the low winding count on a small rotor could be to blame for not doing any good at 500 rpm.


More likely, flux is correct and i'm just havin fun.


The axial gennie you talked about, without an iron core....i assume you will then require magnets to focus things...... magnets means asynchronous cant work. If I were to add a magnet into the system, I would use slip rings and then at least I have some control of the output charastics, and a solid industrial, dust proof, water proof device.


.......oztules

« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 04:04:43 AM by oztules »
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windy

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2006, 10:06:32 PM »
Hi Zubby


I'm still a little confused with winding the stator with 18 coils(6 per phase). Is the first coil wound in slot #1 and 2 and the next coil in slot #3 and 4 and so on for a total of 18 coils? I have the 12 coil per phase figured out but not the 6 coil per phase. I looked at your post on your 7.5 HP conversion, but couldn't tell how many coils you used. It looks like 18 coils but I'm not sure. In your opinion is it better to wind for 12 coils per phase or 6 coils per phase. Also, does each coil get wound in the same direction.


Thanks for the help!

windy

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 10:06:32 PM by windy »
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zeb

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2011, 09:23:08 AM »
Hi oztules & Hannu,

I have been toying with this idea as OZ was 5 years ago.

Since I have read this thread, I was wondering if it might be fruitful to start from where OZ left off. I mean taking a bigger frame with 70+ slots in the stator and 50+ in the rotor. It seems that OZ 's attempt was limited to a 36 slot washing machine motor, which was really the limiting factor for achieving higher no. of poles. The size of course, will become bigger but the gain in terms of simplifying the prop and gearbox/belt drive is tantalizing. 18 poles to shoot for on such a frame isn't asking too much OR is it?

What say OZ, Hannu & Flux.

Regards

Zeb

 

SparWeb

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2011, 12:28:17 PM »
Hi Zeb,
(welcome to fieldlines)

"Toying with" meaning you have such a motor to try it out?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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zeb

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2011, 10:02:17 PM »
Hello Spar,

Thanks for the welcoming words.

I have been toying with the idea and not the motor. However I have easy access to induction motor frames of up to 70+ stator and 50+ rotor slots. So this route seems attractive. I have been thinking about something akin to BREEZY, however in the standalone mode rather than grid connected.

Regards

Zeb
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 10:04:32 PM by zeb »

joestue

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2011, 02:12:32 AM »
16 and 20 poles work but 18 doesn't for 72 slots

this is a pretty cool online calculator i just discovered. you may have to register to use it.
http://www.emetor.com/edit/windings/
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zeb

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2011, 05:30:21 AM »
Thanks a million, Joe. This would help tremendously.

Just for your info I have set up a test bench to work on these lines. It currently consists of a three phase 4 pole motor running at 1440 RPM (230 Volts, 50 Hz power), as the prime mover. Currently it is driving a single phase 1 HP sq. cage motor, acting as generator. The drive is through a pair of machined pullies. The larger dia pulley on the generator is designed to produce 44 Hz while the other pulley of smaller dia generates 55 Hz, when driven by the 3 phase 1440 RPM motor. Useful output voltage has been obtained while running the generator on each of the pullies (low RPM and high RPM), with a capacitors connected in parallel with the o/p. Will post data and pics very soon.

Next step is to attach two small pieces (of iron) with the pulley to excite an inductive sensor. Hopefully this will give me pulses that a microcontroller can read and display the RPM. The microcontroller will also function as the Load Controller along the lines presented in the following paper.

http://itee.uq.edu.au/~aupec/aupec06/htdocs/content/pdf/207.pdf

Incidently 20 poles is even better than 18. RPM goes down to 300 (for 50 Hz)

Thanks again.

Zeb
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 05:38:23 AM by zeb »

joestue

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Re: 7.5 hp induction motor conversion single phase
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2011, 08:51:50 AM »
If this is your first time winding a motor i'd go with 16 poles to keep the winding simpler, as its symetrical.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.