Simple, compact system for Burning Man?

[tanksonfire]

Howdy. I need help figuring out where to begin for the type of project I have in mind.

The husband and I are going to trot out to the Playa (http://burningman.com/) for our second anniversary; we honeymooned there, too. PLENTY of wind out there, and often too much. We will be camping in the "Alternate Energy Zone". This means no generators, which is fine by us, since we don't usually use one out there. All the same, though, we wouldn't mind some light in the darkness this year, or a fan when it is hot, or music whenever we like.

Naturally, I started looking into wind systems for this... but OMG is there a lot of info out there! For a novice, it is completely overwhelming. I don't know where to even start researching for the type of system that would meet our needs -- just enough power for the above-mentioned type items. The easier it is to setup and take down, the better. Ditto on compact size; the bits need to pack into the truck with all our other gear, and it shouldn't leave too big a footprint on the ground or be dangerous to passersby. (IT could be mounted on top of our shade structure dome, which will be guyed.) Price and time to build are also considerations -- we don't have a huge amount of money and are happy to scrap for some things, but we don't have unlimited time to scrounge for obscure parts. Our level of handiness is decent, and we have some power tools and most basic hand tools.

Anyone care to point me in an appropriate direction, towards a particular design, etc? I'm all ears.

MANY THANKS!!

tank

[zap]

Yes tank, there is a lot of info out there and a lot of info here.

You can narrow that info down in short order by first coming up with at least a guesstimate on the amount of power you'll want, and, or need.  Your description is a little vague.

"some light"  This could be a 500 watt halogen, a 10 watt fluorescent, or a headlamp using 2 aaa batteries and the same thing applies with the fan and music.  A 6 foot celing fan or a 4 inch dashboard fan?  A 20 pound boom box or an mp3 player?

Give this group some kind of figure on the amount of power and you'll have plenty of answers in almost no time.

[kitno455]

also give us some kind of feel for your fabrication capabilities, and time frame. if you need this in a month, and it only has to last a week, that leads to a different solution than something that you need for next winter...

i can already see two solutions forming- treadmill or tape drive motor driven direct by a pvc blade hawt, or the same driven by bicycle chain geared up from a plastic drum savonious. 12 battery, couple high-wattage lights as a dumpload.

allan

[johnlm]

I realize you said not much money, but if your needs are modest - 10 W florescent light, small radio or MP3, and a small fan that doesnt need to runn all day long, Im thinking a 10 to 15 W PV panel working into a 10 or 15 AH Gel Cell battery , or maybe an 80 AH Wallyville deep discharge battery for $39 would go a long way to meeting those needs if the place gets plenty of sun to charge the battery all day long.  The PV panel might be around $75 to $100  and then you could likely resell it to someone on this forum for somewhat less if you decided to not keep it.

The above would be an easy clean option of you didnt have the time or resources to build a small windgenny.

John

[wpowokal]

Tank, second anerversaray!!!!! why the need for music!!!! do not you still make your own, sorry had to ask.

allan down under

[zap]

Maybe the music is to "drowned out" their... ahhh... errr... own music?  wink wink nudge nudge

[kitno455]

say n' more, SAY N' MORE, SIR!

allan

[Gary D]

Tanksonfire, there are lots of options available. If some tent light and music are your most needed, a search for "hand crank radio's" (google or ask) will lead you to many solar rechargable radio's with led lights. Very nice to have emergency weather radio option by changing the station away from fm or am ... They can be hand cranked for extended run times. Costs go from close to 40 dollars US. up. Some can recharge ni-cads for a possible computer muffin fan (you supply the fan and the connectors for the batteries). A cheap thought here... have fun no matter your choices! Gary D.

[DanG]

Windmills snarling across the desert chasing hippies everglades swamp boat style - make sure you get videos!!... Or an out-of-balance mill hopping mad like a psychotic-cusinart (thanks TW) at 3am would be something to never-be-spoken-about-again-as-long-as-you-live after the plastic surgeons were finished.

As a token gesture for RE I think a large box fan unit, a shrouded turbine that you manually point into prevailing wind could sustain intermittant CFL and some tunes (bass is a near short-circut so hope you like mid-range and treble) but make sure battery is 100% the day you setup camp...

A large box fan(s) w/ mini pyramid tower, something that will collapse onto its own footprint when over stressed comes to mind if you have open ground upwind. The air-flow anywhere near ground level is full of turbulence - keeping the blade tips above pedestrian level but low enough to fall 'gently' would be a problem...

A taller windmill using the "truck" as a base that you swap batteries out with as needed might work if you can commute between the vehicle and camp...

[zap]

lol allan... I really should start looking for a cheap price on the DVD set.  It's probably been a decade and a half or more since I've seen any episodes.

[ghurd]

You should get the DVDs.

"They're wafer thin".

G-

[ghurd]

Given the nature of Burning Man, a box fan conversion may be a great way to go.

Even with just a little output, the point is the same.

If the battery arrives at 12.7V and leaves at 11.0V, it would be a success. Right?

It could be done with 4 or 6 cheap (but decent) magnets, 3 bridges, scraps of wood, and a box fan.  And a tower.  And someone to take it down in a gale.

It would require very little electrical knowledge, basic tools, $30, and a few hours.

Pertinent links we can offer upon request.

Just 2 cents.

G-

[kitno455]

wwwahffer theen.

[zap]

ROFL... http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/ml/wafer.wav

[zap]

I strongly agree G with it fitting in well with Burning Man.  Plus a solar panel just doesn't have anywhere near the WOW factor that a turbine affords and Burning Man almost seems to require.

[tanksonfire]

Wow, folks -- thanks for all the good input... right down to the waaaafer theen DVD remarks. I'll give some more info to help narrow things, based on all the responses so far.

SPACE -- We are going to be a small camp (just we two) with one living dome and one shade structure dome. We will not being going hog-wild on power. That being said, the domes are about 15' across each.

TIME -- Burning Man is in late August, so we have until then to get a plan, scrounge parts, and build it. This rig needs to stand up to some potentially harsh conditions for a week. Conditions can include high winds, intense sun, dust storms, and rain.

LEVEL OF HANDINESS -- I put together a VW bus engine from parts in a couple boxes, a couple of helpful friends who didn't know anything more than I did about aircooled engines (nothing at the time), some books, some online sources, and my tools. I have welding experience (torch and arc), though it is limited. I am unafraid of scrapyards and dirt and grease. I have drills, an angle grinder, a 10" radial arm saw, a mid-sized air compressor, etc. Not super-handy, but handy enough to do quite a bit... especially considering how much time we have.

LIGHTS -- I have now investigated solar-powered LED string lights and plan to get a couple for lighting both domes. I think a string of 208 bright-white LEDs should make an interior space bright enough for funtional uses at night (a-hem), like cooking. I also plan to get some small solar garden lights and mod them to do fun things that will also provide some decent light. So -- light, check.

MUSIC -- Yes, we still make our own. Natuerlich, folks. But it's great to wake up, make your own music, then wake our campmates to the likes of Tom Waits and invitations of blueberry pancakes at our place. A basic, portable CD player (bitty boom box) works fine for this. Handcrank radios I have, two of them. I have used them in the past, and this time I want to listen to my own playlist when we are at our camp.

FAN -- A couple old CPU fans might work fine for this. There is usually wind a plenty (70+ MPH sustained dust storms on our honeymoon; this thing needs to be sturdy), but it is unpredictable. Sometimes it is dead still. I would like something for those times when it is 90+ degrees and it is siesta time and the air isn't moving through the flaps in the dome and it is effing miserable on the foam matress. Just need to move the air enough across the skin enough help cool down, is all.

SOLAR vs. WIND -- Aye, have thought about making a relatively cheap solar system (http://www.rain.org/%7Ephilfear/how2solar.html), but it is missing the WOW factor. Wind also just seems friendlier, based on what goes into solar panels. Still, they are an option on the table. As far as space for doing something wind-based, I was intrigued to see how another Burner put this rig together: http://www.ae-zone.org/Designs/sandy%27sturbine/sandysdesign.html. It needs lots of improvement, as she goes on to mention, but the idea of going tall and skinny was a nice one. It also looks quite safe. Personally, I would probably go with a metal frame that packs down small, use a different blade/cup design, and possibly use a taughtly stretched canvas (again, packs down small) instead of that plastic. But, these are only the ideas of a novice... not sure how that would play out in practice.

I hope this clarifies a few things. Thanks for all your input!

t

[kitno455]

ok, you're right on then, except i would look at direct 12v CFL's instead of LEDs. they use less power, and put out light at wide angle, unlike LED.

spend some time here. look specifically at posts by Jerry, DanB, Zubbly, and Windstuffnow (Ed). they all have different means to get to the same goal. also google search the board for 'box fan conversion' ghurd and others have done a bit there.

wouldn't it be neat to use a couple box fans to make power when its windy, and then use them to make wind when it is calm? that would take some electronics work. three-phase stepper motor controller running some bigger power fets?

if you are not too handy with the lathe, also search around online for using caps to excite an induction motor into a generator. you'll make less power than a neo conversion, but its easier.

keep us informed.

allan

[zap]

Your power needs seem nicely modest.

NOW is the perfect time, in the States anyway, to scrounge all things.  Spring cleaning, city sponsored bulk pickups, and college dormitories emptying out.  Usually lots of tossed box fans can be found for the box fan conversions many have already mentioned.  Using a $10 surplus treadmill motor you could try something like this.  Google searching this site under "menu" above right typing in CHISPITO will get you more info.

LIGHTS--I agree with allan.  Don't marry the LED idea just yet.  Those seem pretty pricey if they're the same 104 bulb strings I've seen.  Obviously they can be used for more than Burning Man and the more uses you have for them, the cheaper they become but I think you can do better.  You mentioned the solar garden lights, some of those can put out quite a bit of light on their own and removing the globe and reflector may help even more.

MUSIC-- I have an old Sears boom box, it's listed as 120 volt ac, 12 watt, or 6 "D" cell equaling 9 volt dc.  If the sun's shining it runs fine using a $10 Harbor Freight solar panel.  Hooked to a 12vdc battery it pulls about 150ma at 1/3 volume, radio only.  Spinning a cd will cost you a little more power.

SOLAR vs WIND-- You've mentioned a few strikes against wind.  High winds that like to tear things apart and "Sometimes it is dead still."  A well designed turbine will take care of strike one and a big battery will take care of strike two.  Most here are more expert on the turbine side of things than I and will probably suggest a HAWT.    You've already read what can happen to a VAWT from Sandy's link you posted.

good luck tank, and like allan said, keep us informed of the progress

[tanksonfire]

Aye... Now IS the time for scrapping. I just scored that 10" radial arm saw from a local freecycle list. Yep -- a working Craftsman and a bunch of related blades and gear -- free. The stuff I have scored on Freecycle, and especially this time of year, is amazing. The stuff I have gotten rid of is also impressive.

A clarification on it being "dead still", as it was quite possibly a poor choice of words on my part. (No, not probably, it just was.) I do not believe the Playa is ever truly still. It is flat as a pancake land -- no trees or even brush or grass -- for miles, but surrounded by rugged hills on the sides (a shape that funnels wind). There is almost always at least a light breeze going on. The thing is, if you are inside even a breathable structure like a geodesic dome at these times, it will feel like dead calm, even if it isn't. With the sun pounding down and playa dust in your nose (and every last crevice), it feels downright suffocating. Even more relevant, however, is the fact that other people's structures block the wind, creating little dead pockets that could likely be overcome by strategic placement.

As for the LEDs, I found some (208/string) for a great price that come with their own little solar panels and transformers, and they do have the multiple uses which is a bonus. But I think you have a point about interior lighting; maybe I could get better candle power elsewhere (like something really bright right over the food prep area). The thing is, LEDs don't put out much by way of heat, so we can feel really good about having them right on the synthetic fabric of the living-space dome. Thoughts on that for the heat/safety consideration?

I will probably end up getting a couple sets for the exterior, at least. If nothing else, we will not be likely to get a repeat of our honeymoon when some POS yahoo on a bike rode directly through our camp at dusk, through one of our high-wind guys, snapping a major grommet on the dome and leaving a 8x10' hole directly over our honeymoon bed. He also nearly killed himself in the process of being such an ass. Automatic exterior lighting at dusk could have staved off such stupidity... we hope.)

I am really digging the feedback. I'm getting some great ideas that I'll have to wait until after exams (ending April 11) to fully research, but it will be great to sink into over break. In the mean time, you're pointing me in fun directions.

THANKS!!!

tank

[ghurd]

A couple thoughts.

CPU muffin fans work quite well for very little power. Make sure it is the proper voltage.  Some move a lot more air than others using about the same power.

The 208 solar LEDs are going to be a disapointment.  An 11W 12V 'CFL' would be a better choice, makes more light, probably uses less power. But fragile.

I probably won't use another free (in the garbage) 20" box fan, except for the blade.  There IS a reason it's out there (burnt wires? Bad bushing?). New ones only cost $12 at dollar stores and could save a lot of grief.

Maybe I'd try an old one for a rewind, but I like the idea of using the wire that is already in it.

Not trying to knock the VAWT windmill in the link, I think it's kind of cool, but much of that info is not quite a good idea.

[DanG]

If you really want twinkly lights use a select "very-best" small holiday string with a little invertor, except you might have to ration their use if you don't have PV solar charger since the added no-load loss of inverter chimes in. The best I've seen come from the expensive department stores and garden centers, where they aren't built to withstand 6-year-olds swinging on them like a vine as they are at home-improvement centers...

Don't sell CFL lamps short - CFL lights in a skyshine 6500K wavelength have a strong "Moon Light" quality to them - as indirect lighting (so you can't see the bulb) could make a memorable ambience to your shelter. Adding a blacklight UV CFL could also be a charge-up if you have some dayglo water based high lighter pens and a doodling bent - plus a hidden record to view next year if your shelter cover can double as a canvas...

-

[tanksonfire]

"... have a strong "Moon Light" quality to them - as indirect lighting ... Adding a blacklight ... some dayglo water based high lighter pens..."

Oooooooooooohhhh. Nice.

[tanksonfire]

[Sorry -- long post!]

I have slept on some things, and here's where I'm at today with a few issues:

LIGHTS: Most of you will be pleased to know that I have not purchased the LEDs. (See, I'm listening to you.) I am going to hold off on that, see what I can do with some outdoor garden lights. If nothing else, I can make a sort of chandelier armature to suspend from the ceilings, charge the lights up by day, and drop them into the fixture at night. No wires required, easy enough to do, and cheap. If I can get a windie up and running, I'll tackle the lighting situation another way and use the garden lights for path lighting.

Now something for which, from my brief time knocking about the sight, I fully expect to be chastised. In looking at basic designs for this particular project, for this particular project, I keep coming back to two things: safety and size. And, until I get more experienced and sophisticated in building these, this has me thinking VAWT. I would like to be clear that I respect, from all my readings over the last week or so, that HAWT are probably more powerful, efficient, and even easier to maintain. They would be appropriate out in the art area of the open playa, but not so much in the high-density living space. I do plan to build one. Or two. (I'm getting the idea these things are as addictive as crack and, er, Volkswagens.) But I think my attempt for this particular project is going to go upwards. Sorry.

As for ideas I have on it, I'm not following anything from that link I posted earlier, don't worry. I'm not knocking it, either. It was downright inspirational for me... and she has more experience at this than I do, so she has my respect. Mine, however, will be quite different.

For starters, I'm going with metal components. I've got some design ideas (may or may not work; this is a learning exercise) for how to make it store down to about nothing in transport and assemble easily. Even the "blades" will store down to nothing. I got thinking that the absolute ideal material for the blades would be the high-quality rip-stop fabric from which the skin of our living dome is made. The stuff can be pulled very, very taught and can take high winds if you load it properly. It is thin and extremely light weight... and I also know from experience that it can act like sail with no problem. It is almost like exceptionally thin sheet metal that can be rolled up when not in use.

When I realized this was the stuff to use, my heart sank a bit because it is also very expensive. Then I remembered that I knew of a ton of it likely to be headed for a landfill soon. My brother and sister-in-law's old dome got shredded by some druggies when they lent it to friends whose truck got broken into on the way back from Burning Man last year. The thieves apparently thought that anything that big and wrapped up in so much stuff had to have drugs in it, so they cut their way through the whole dome skin (about $1K worth) with a knife trying to find what wasn't there. They still have the fabric, and I know there will be usable pieces. I asked, and they said I can have as much as I need. I'll let you know how that goes once I get my hands on some and can start playing with it. Woo hoo! I'm excited.

I have other ideas on how to stabilize everything which, again, may or may not work. But, if this thing starts coming apart out there, at least it won't be much of a hazard to anyone. I'm also thinking (likely to make most of you shudder) of not putting it up high, but right on the ground at the back of our camp where the wind hits. (Fortunately, wind direction is fairly predictable out there.)

So, knowing that I am headed this direction with it, would box fan conversion or treadmill motor still be appropriate? Pros/cons?

I know there will be nay-sayers among you, and that's cool. You've WAY more experience even thinking about these things than I do, let alone building them. I may well fail. If I do, I intend to fail gloriously, having tried something interesting and fun. I hope if that happens, you'll still be encouraging me rather than saying 'told you so'.

THANKS!

tank

[zap]

The box fan conversion and treadmill motor should still work but you'll likely have to gear up the speed coming from the VAWT. No real problem but it will mean more setup and more valuable space taken up in the vehicle with which ever way you decide to gear things up.

The slow speed, as compared to a HAWT, is one of the "problems" with the savonius type of VAWT.

windstuffnow Ed has done quite a bit of work with VAWTs. Take a look at his educational kit here for some possible ideas. His design builds an alternator into the base of the mill and he's gearing up "electrically" negating the need for mechanically gearing up.

[tanksonfire]

Zap, you positively rock with all the great links you keep feeding me. Thanks. The VAWT I am envisioning would be about five feet and have quite a bit of area on the "blades" (four feet-ish) to catch the breeze... which I image would help things out, especially if the materials are light weight and the fabric extremely taut and not penetrable (the rip stop meeting all of those qualities). Again -- dunno, just guessing on that one. I am also imagining that the quality of bearings going into this beastie will be quite important in keeping energy loss due to friction at a minimum. I am also going to attempt to design the main body of this thing to be collapsable -- quickly assembled and disassembled. I am playing with some fun ideas for this that I'll report on after I've had an opportunity to play with some materials hands-on, see how it goes. For now, I'm just off work and am going to try to settle in to writing a couple exam papers. Ugh.

[DanG]

triangular bracing & sealed mechanicals chamber looks like it might fly well on the playa - as well as scavenging a little 'lost' power w/ its baffles

Borrowed & enlarged image from http://tinyurl.com/pn6ka)

[kitno455]

just because the hawt is 'better' does not mean you will be chastized for using a vawt. quite the contrary, several of us have made lots of crazy looking coffee-can type vawts for experiment. some have made full-sided units.

random thoughts you can use:

build the gen first. then test in drill-press or lathe. this will tell you what gearing/prop size to build.

i am a car guy, check my diary for more info on interesting parts you can use, especially brake rotors (use the 'user info' link next to anyones name to see their files or diaries) the salvage yard can provide you with a great deal of what you need.

lookup benesh savonious on google.

the center frame of a bicycle turned on its side provides a great base for legs, and already has an attached gearing system for your prop.

you can get thin steel cable wrapped in green plastic for your guy wires. more noticable, used for outdoor clothes drying lines.

ceiling fans can often be had at yardsales or salvage stores, and have a couple pretty good bearings in them. they also are often very high pole count, and pretty easy to re-wind.

do a search for brake-drum alternator. hugh piggott used to make those. they are better sealed against dust than the open axial flux style.

allan