Author Topic: Just a Dry Run  (Read 3644 times)

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Ding123

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Just a Dry Run
« on: July 26, 2006, 06:09:30 PM »
Trying to build cheaply....I got some 10 inch rotors ,free at a junk yard along with a hub and some type of strutt. The strutt was originally front wheel drive which was pretty well useless so I bolted my hub to it.That will give me a way to adjust my prop ,if needed.

My stator is pretty near an inch thick.

56 turns of wire. The wire is about as thick as a pencil lead,nine coils.three brush.

The first time I put this unit together I only used 10 magnets on each side,hoping I could save 4 to use on a motor conversion.But, I spun it by hand , it seemed useless so I added the other 4 magnets. the magnets are 1"x2"x1/2" Neos from Wondermagnet.com.

I only had the magnets duct taped on the rotors just to try things. Since I don't know much about meter reading..this is the reading ,in the picture attached ,I got when I was turning it by hand. If it is a good reading to you guys, then I will move forward. If it is not a good reading, I will use my magnets elsewhere...









« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 06:09:30 PM by (unknown) »

Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2006, 12:16:33 PM »
I can't seem to see the pictures in my post..but they are in my files.....check out the meter reading.jpg.

sorry about that.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 12:16:33 PM by Ding123 »

willib

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2006, 12:54:09 PM »
Hi Ding123

dont worry about the pictures , it really does takes a little getting used to if you havnt done it in a while


i have a question


what rpm do ya suppose it was going?

some more details on the test procedure would help us .






« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 12:54:09 PM by willib »
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richhagen

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2006, 01:01:16 PM »
I believe that these are your other pictures.










Rich
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 01:01:16 PM by richhagen »
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Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2006, 01:36:17 PM »
I really don't know ,I just had a spike in one of the stud holes and spun it pretty hard.There was resistance when it was hooked up to the bridges and the meter.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 01:36:17 PM by Ding123 »

Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2006, 01:38:26 PM »
Thank you !! those are the pics I tried to post! I appreciate your help,Richhagen.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 01:38:26 PM by Ding123 »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2006, 02:49:17 PM »
My stator is pretty near an inch thick.  The magnets are 1"x2"x1/2" Neos from Wondermagnet.com.


An inch of magnets (two half-inchers facing each other) is about right for pushing the field through an inch of stator and gap.


nine coils.three brush.


What do you mean by "three brush"?


The first time I put this unit together I only used 10 magnets on each side,hoping I could save 4 to use on a motor conversion.But, I spun it by hand , it seemed useless so I added the other 4 magnets. the magnets are 1"x2"x1/2" Neos from Wondermagnet.com.


With nine coils you need 12 pairs of magnets to get a three-phase output.  Using ten pairs means you have a 9 phase machine and can't efficiently combine the outputs from multiple coils.


With 12 pairs of magnets you connect every third coil in series, finish of one to start of the next, with all coils wound the same direction.  Later you can tie the starts of the three strings together to get a Y, or tie the finish of each string to the start of another to get a delta.


Be sure your magnets are alternating N and S up and that the two rotors are positioned with N of one opposite S of the other, so they attract each other very strongly.  Use "jack screws" to put it together gradually and watch your fingers (or they'll be crushed).

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 02:49:17 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Flux

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2006, 02:58:51 PM »
Not much to go on.


1" thick for the stator means an air gap of over 1" so your flux is low.


With 56 turns per coil you should see cut in probably at 150 rpm or a bit higher.


I assume you have a complete stator connected to a 3 phase bridge, not just one test coil. Your meter seems to show 3 vdc. You should feel no resistance at all with no load so something is connected wrong. Your voltage is about 1/4 what it should be.


The fact that you tried 10 poles and say your wire is as thick as a pencil led and you have to post a picture of your meter for us to read it makes me think this one is going to be hard work, but I will try to help.


Disconnect the rectifier and make sure the load disappears as a first step. If it still loads up, is it smooth or lumpy? come back with these answers first.

Flux

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 02:58:51 PM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2006, 03:06:42 PM »
Just reading ULR's reply makes me wonder how you are trying to connect the coils and rectifier. I assumed you were aiming for 3 phase ( what did you mean by brush)


Are you trying to connect things something like Hugh's 5 phase with all the coils star connected and 9 leads to the rectifier. If so the volts would make more sense, but that connection is not suitable for what you want.


Try with leads disconnected and make sure it doesn't load up as the first step, if you have shorted coils you might as well find out now.

Flux

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 03:06:42 PM by Flux »

hiker

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2006, 03:20:15 PM »
are you making a 9 and 12 alt?

cant really tell -from going throu your files.......

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 03:20:15 PM by hiker »
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Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2006, 03:45:32 PM »
I made my coils and wired them exactly like this diagram.I went over it about 10 times before putting the fiberglass to it.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 03:45:32 PM by Ding123 »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2006, 04:15:36 PM »
Looks right:

 - Three phase.

 - Needs 12 magnet pair.  (Essentially no output with 10.)

 - X, Y, Z are outputs.

 - Tie A, B, C for y

 - Tie X-B, Y-C, Z-A or X-C, Y-A, Z-B for delta.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 04:15:36 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2006, 04:31:45 PM »
Try:

 - Setting your meter to an AC volt range.

 - Hooking it across A and X

 - Turning your rotor by hand at two turns per second (one-THOU sand-ONE

   or watch some clock with a seconds display) to get about 120 RPM at 12 Hz

and tell us what the reading is.


Try again with the meter across B and Y, and once more with C and Z.  All three should be about the same volatage at a given speed and you should have essentially no drag.  Shorting any of those connection pairs should give you a BUNCH of drag - like "slam to a stop" drag.


When you eventually hook up your rectifiers hang X, Y, and Z to three AC inputs and tie the + and + output together and to your battery or meter.  When hooked to the battery as you spin it up it should start resisting you at some speed.  That's cutin.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 04:31:45 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2006, 04:33:35 PM »
ARGH!   Just looked at the diagram.  Swap "A" and "C" everythere the appear in both of my previous comments.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 04:33:35 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2006, 04:53:28 PM »
ok...that is worth a try....thanks
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 04:53:28 PM by Ding123 »

Flux

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2006, 05:28:59 PM »
In one photo of your magnet rotors it looks as though the magnets are virtually touching the flange of a hub or something on one of the rotors with a ring of something white between them and this flange.


If so there will be a lot of leakage flux in this region.


Still shouldn't cause all the trouble but it is not good.


If you have followed the connection diagram, that is right.


Try to check ac volts as ULR as asked and make sure there is no resistance to turning when you do it.


Bed time for me, will look in the morning.

Flux

« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 05:28:59 PM by Flux »

Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2006, 06:05:50 PM »
you guys got it,you guys hit the nail on the head!one of the rotors with the white strip was stealing the power from the magnets.I had white plastic stripping in there

but it didn't stop the leakage.Turned the rotor over,re-assembled it,everything seems alot better.I'll keep you informed at another time.

P.S. a question from the little woman....

 she wants to know if there is a detox where people GO to dry out from this addiction!Thanks
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 06:05:50 PM by Ding123 »

hiker

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2006, 06:20:20 PM »


« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 06:20:20 PM by hiker »
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Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2006, 08:06:50 PM »
Is this 2 difcferent ways of wiring 9 coils?If it is,I'm confused.But I will wire my bridge rectifiers like it shows in your diagram.  I just have all 9 coils wired in 3's.

I was told it didn't matter ,but, maybe it does!

Thanks,hiker.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 08:06:50 PM by Ding123 »

hiker

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2006, 11:27:03 PM »
for wiring in star just hook the abc leads togeather--then the xyz are your lead wires out--hook those to your rects-as in the pict..[bottom left]........
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 11:27:03 PM by hiker »
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Flux

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2006, 12:38:16 AM »
With your number of turns you will need the star connection. That is the right hand one on Hiker's drawing.


Join ABC on your connection diagram ( starts or finishes) the remaining 3 leads X Y Z go to your rectifier.


In the drawing that Hiker provided the theoretical diagram of a rectifier is on the right ( showing star connection)


The left hand drawing (showing delta connection) shows the physical connection of a 3 phase rectifier using 2 bridges. You can use 3 bridges, join the ac connections on each bridge and connect one alternator wire to each of the joined ac connections. Connect 3 bridge positives and 3 bridge negatives.


Either method works, the 3 bridge method is effectively 2 of the others in parallel and will handle higher current.


Pleased to hear that things are improving. Your magnets are rather cramped on 10" discs and with your thick stator you have more leakage flux than normal, you don't want anything making it even worse.

Flux

« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 12:38:16 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2006, 12:42:46 AM »
Don't think there is a cure, try the other way, send her on a windmill building course and let her catch it as well, you will have support then.

Flux
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 12:42:46 AM by Flux »

jimjjnn

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2006, 08:55:32 AM »
Don't send her to windmill course cause then she'll tell you that you are doing everything wrong.

Let her think you are a genius when you have finished building one and she can use the power with a lower grid bill
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 08:55:32 AM by jimjjnn »

elvin1949

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2006, 11:43:57 AM »
Reply to "Little Woman"

 No,this addiction is permanent and irreverseable.

later

elvin
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 11:43:57 AM by elvin1949 »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2006, 03:31:13 PM »
Wiring in star / wye / Y gives you a higher voltage and lower current.

Wiring in delta gives you a lower voltage and higher current.


Y also has higher resistive losses for a given amount of power output.  (This is not too much of an issue with windchargers:  Under a significant range of operating conditions some resistive losses let the blade speed up a bit, stay out of stall, and collect more than enough extra power from the wind to make up for the losses, giving you a net increase in collected power compared to a less lossy machine.  Efficiency isn't an issue when the fuel is free - power collected and system reliability/costs are what matters.)


Delta has losses from circulating currents due to harmonic voltages that don't add up to zero around the loop.  These may be very small if your waveshape is nearly a sine (or any of a number of other "good" waveshapes).  Even if moderate, they are small compared to the resistive losses running near capacity in a charging application.  But they are a pure resistive load, so they load the genny at startup and disproportionately at low wind speeds, when you need power the most.  So windchargers are typically designed to be run in Y.


But matching your genny to your blades and wind conditions has a bigger effect on the amount of power you get than the loss difference of delta vs. wye.  So once you've got your coils cast into resin and magnets chosen, you have to connect it the way that gives you better performance.


As Flux points out, you've wound your coils with few enough turns that you'll need to connect them in Y to get a decently low cutin speed.  However, if you happen to wind your next one with too many turns, resulting in very low cutin speed and limiting the output at higher winds due to blade stalling, reconnecting in delta might be a quick fix to try before bringing it down and building a new stator.


Some gennies use a delta-wye switch to get more power out of the mill in high winds.  You'll find stuff about that elsewhere on the board.  They start out in wye, but above a certain speed a control box and set of relays switches them to delta.  This lets the mill speed up and collect more power from the wind by reducing the load on the shaft, and delta outputs almost twice as much charging current (sqrt(3) = 1.732... times) for a given amount of resistive heat dumped in the coils, so it lets the genny run at higher power before furling is required to protect it from meltdown.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 03:31:13 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ding123

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Re: Just a Dry Run
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2006, 06:49:06 PM »
Thank you everyone for your replies. When I get the genny up I will let you know how it goes...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 06:49:06 PM by Ding123 »