Author Topic: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton  (Read 2518 times)

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shmuu102

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is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« on: August 16, 2006, 09:11:04 PM »
I have been floating the idea of converting this motor to a PM gennie.

any comments would be appreciated..   thanks


Its a Dayton model 3n738

rmp: 1770

hp: 25

phases: 3

pf: 82.0

Nom eff: 90.2


and on the stamped plate is has the amps for differnt voltage wirings


Volts     Amps



  1.       68.3
  2.       64.4
  3.       32.2


the 'meat' of the rotor is 6" long and 7" in diameter. I dont know how to tell how many poles it has.


after taking it apart, im not sure i wanna mount this monster on top a 40'+ tower.

(the rotor alone weighted in at 88 lbs). I am also considering getting a diesel motor to make a backup genney (biodiesel) out of this thing.


photos (kinda large)


http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp1.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp2.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp3.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp4.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp5.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp6.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp7.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp8.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp9.jpg

http://www.dimmworks.com/diy/25hp10.jpg

« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 09:11:04 PM by (unknown) »


drdongle

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2006, 04:05:55 PM »
This a 4 pole motor and a very possible conversion...however I recommend that you convert several smaller motors to gain some "hands on" experience.

There was a similar post recently and I recommend that you read it and then every thing Zubbly has ever written here ( there all in the archive, use the search function)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 04:05:55 PM by drdongle »

vawtman

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2006, 06:58:49 PM »
Shmuu Driving it with diesel is the best option no alterations other than run caps needed.

 Could you imagine the blades needed here?Study my freind.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 06:58:49 PM by vawtman »

dinges

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2006, 08:42:34 PM »
Yeah, I agree,


It looks tasty but a bit big for a very first conversion. If you make a mistake (e.g. don't skew correctly), you'll have wasted a lot of expensive magnets.


Try a 2-3 HP conversion first. If that works, I'd say, go for it.


The weight of the motor is peanuts to the tower, when you compare it with the windforces on such a genny; big gennies also need big props, thus high lateral force on the tower.


If you fear that the/a tower can't hold the weight of the genny, it would definitely be too small, if only due to the large wind forces.


I'm looking a bit for such a 25HP motor myself, also for connecting to a diesel engine. At the moment, I have neither the diesel nor the 25HP motor. You've already got part of it. Where/how did you get it, BTW?

« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 08:42:34 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

shmuu102

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2006, 11:11:23 PM »
this one i pulled off a machine at my work...a large 10 ton stainless rotory blender.

the motor worked fine, but the large bearing ring and tailpiece were mild, and eventually eaten/rusted away.. after years of patching this thing back together, i talked my boss into a new one, only when it started leaking gearoil into the batches.


I live very close to a roadway/yellowfrieght damamaged frieght "store".. i see motors like this all the time. brand new.. and  they go for amost nothing...under $200 sometimes...

ironically, the shipping would be more than the motor.. unless your close to akron, ohio...


im leaning more twards the diesel gen now... after a bit of reading... it seems almost too simple. I would think it would call for  an equal 25hp engine? any thoughts?

« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 11:11:23 PM by shmuu102 »

maker of toys

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2006, 11:49:28 PM »
get an engine that is rated about 120% of what you project your steady state power demand to be, and ensure that it will be happy producing the required power at 1800 RPM (most small diesels will be; some microdiesels will not.  a different RPM is not a show stopper, but introduces complications.).


that ~120% number gives you a bit of reserve so that the system will regulate well for frequency (in case you want AC mains power for motors, etc. ) and will also give the benefit of loading the engine to peak torque, not peak HP.  (better specific fuel economy)  AND! an engine running flat out will wear faster than one that's derated (even a little bit)


this, of course, begs the question of:


HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU REALLY NEED?


Best to answer that question before buying an engine. . . . no sense in feeding a 30HP engine if a 8 HP engine will do.  even "free" fuels like WVO, etc. have opportunity costs and other 'hidden' costs;  e.g. the more oil you burn, the more fuel filters you'll need to replace; and the bigger the engine, the more crankcase oil you'll have to deal with. . . . yakity smackity.


-Dan


PS:  anyone have a line on a 40-50HP industrial diesel for sale?  I missed the one advertised here. . .  Used OK; siezed or parted out not ok.)

« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 11:49:28 PM by maker of toys »

Countryboy

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 10:53:59 AM »
Don't let the weight bother you.  A strong tower can handle it.  The Jacobs long case is still considered the Cadillac of home sized wind turbines.  They weigh about 600 pounds.


I was talking to zubbly in the IRC chat the other night.  I have a similar motor, and had an idea for converting that zubbly really liked.  If you used magnets to the motors potential, you would end up needing massive blades (probably 20 foot radius) to power it.  That's massive overkill for a homebrew turbine, and has a lot of potential to cause disasterous results if you do anything wrong.


My idea was to use less magnet material.  You would then have a super heavy duty generator.  By using less magnets, maximum potential output would be lowered to a more controllable amount.  It may not be a maximum efficient generator, but you don't care about that when you have practically unlimited output (within reason) to choose from.


You may still end up with a turbine with a few Kw of output, which should be sufficient for most home needs, while not going overkill.  You won't need an ungodly large set of blades either.  Output in PMG generators tends to be proportional to total cubic magnet material, so you can build the rotor to meet your needs.  The potential unused generator capacity just adds beefiness and durability to the generator itself.  Durability and dependability is worth a lot in home brew turbines.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 10:53:59 AM by Countryboy »

shmuu102

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006, 01:21:06 PM »
I like this train of thought...  this would seem to overcome the problem with most conversions crapping out on the high end.


the lams on this rotor are about 6" in length, and i found a 4"x1"x0.5" n40 on ebay..


how many kw's? do you think 4 or even 8 of these on the rotor would produce?


one other problems seems to be the cut-in wind speed. since the stator is set, the only thing we have to vary is magnets and blade size. ( and a choice between parrallel or series coils).

« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 01:21:06 PM by shmuu102 »

Countryboy

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 02:00:10 PM »
Hi schmuu,

  zubbly is the resident fieldlines master of motor conversions.  His rule of thumb is that you can get about 150 watts output per cubic inch of magnet material.  A 4X1X0.5 mag is 2 cubic inches.  4 of these is 8 cubic inches, or 1200 watts.  8 would be 2400 watt output.


If you plan on using these magnets, you will have to skew the laminations and completely rewire the conversion to eliminate cogging.  The magnets are simply too long to be able to skew them on the rotor without a huge airgap.  (A massive effort - my advice, if you are going to completely rewind and skew laminations, build it to the max potential. IE, don't use these magnets on this conversion.)


(If you really insist upon using these magnets, dinges has been doing some research on a different style of skewing that you could use.  It's a little more complex than zubbly's method of skewing, but it appears to be a workable method.)


Check to see how many lead wires are coming out of the motor presently.  We have a similar motor here on the farm, with 12 wires coming out.  If you have 12 lead wires coming out, use the windings you have.  That's the easiest solution.  You can get away with just building a rotor for the motor.  With 12 wires coming out, you can adjust cut-in speed by how you connect them.


I'd recommend using a skewed line of round magnets on the rotor for each pole.  Decide how many watts max output you want, and divide by 150 to determine how many cubic inches of mag material to use.


Once you know what kind of output you want, look at a chart of available power in the wind to determine what blade size you will need to use.  Also, look at a chart showing what winds your area gets.  If you build a genny to generate power at 50 MPH winds, you're going to be SOL since the Akron area doesn't get many winds like that.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 02:00:10 PM by Countryboy »

scottsAI

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Re: is this motor worth converting 25hp dayton
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2006, 09:54:58 PM »
Hello Shmuu102,


  1. HP with 20' blades at 30MPH would max it out.
  2. ' blades at 26mph would max it out.(calculations depend on your assumptions)
  3. ' blades at 22pmh would max it out.


I don't know how much power you need, 25HP is 18Kw you have lots of potential.


Using a fixed rotor speed, variable pitch control (TSR varies) with speed up gear, run the generator to back feed the grid (assuming you have a grid), no need for voltage control. Will need pitch control.

I'm working on doing just that.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 09:54:58 PM by scottsAI »