Author Topic: Small turbine ideas  (Read 1423 times)

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KC8QVO

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Small turbine ideas
« on: March 31, 2007, 01:41:33 AM »
Hi all. I know most of you work on large wind turbines. However, I have a smaller one in mind and would like a little bit of help.


I know quite a bit about electronics, Im a ham radio operator, but I have never delt with generating electricity. I understand the concept of passing a coil through a magnetic field to create a bit of current. However, what is the deal with all the windings and phases? The more windings the higher the voltage? What about the phasing of the coils - is that just determined by the number of coils in series? Say, for example, 3 phases from 3 groups of 5 coils alternating in position equally around the stator?


Heres my idea. I want a portabe power system for my radios. 100 to 200w would be plenty of power. Is it possible to build this with a 2' blade diameter? I see all these big 10 footers with the volvo rotors putting out over a kw.


I am also in to radio controlled airplanes and build them myself from foam insulation. I have a hotwire cutting machine I made for wings, so I can cut some nice blades out for this. The plan is to fiberglass the foam to increase the strength. Not sure how many layers it will take to make them strong enough though. Ill just have to play with it.


What about stator design? Is a 3-phase stator the best route? What should I use to mold the coils in place? Is it possible to use Minwax polycrylic? Dont laugh, but I use it for fiberglass resin and it works like a charm hehehe - the cloth soaks it up nice and it dries fast. Seems to be fairly strong too. Lighter than regular resin. How about magnets? I have seen some that form a ring around the outside or inside of the coils and I have also seen the magnets placed equi-distant (like in the 20' turbine one listed on the site). Is one design preferable over the other? If so, why?


Steve

« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 01:41:33 AM by (unknown) »

KC8QVO

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2007, 08:03:28 PM »
I guess I should have read some more into how much power I can get from a given turbine.


Let me see if I did this correctly, can someone check my numbers?

6' diameter blade

air density of 1 (just to be safe)

wind velocity of 5mph

59.26% efficiency (I forget the name of the guy that factor is named after)


I got 27.306 watts. That doesnt seem right, but I have no experience with wind power. If that is the case, then I would have to have a heck of a steady wind to get 100 watts out of this turbine, let alone the 2' one I was originally hoping for.


Steve

« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 08:03:28 PM by KC8QVO »

Spdlmt150

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2007, 08:50:01 PM »

Keep in mind that the general rule here is that nothing "runs" from the turbine. It charges batteries, which run devices. A small turbine will result in small output. I have a 6 foot motor conversion which dumps into 440AH of batteries. Normally I see around .5-2 amps from it. When the wind picks up, I've seen close to 20 amps. It's the storage that carries between the bursts of charging.

There is very little power to extract from a 5mph wind. The goal is to extract a useable amount of power from higher windspeeds. My 6 footer won't even turn in 5 mph. It takes around 8 to break loose & spin up. What I get from a 10 mph gust is much more than I would get from 5 mph all day. If you want power from 5 mph, you will be looking at a large rotor. If you want something small, then you will be looking at charging at higher windspeeds.

Ham equipment can be run from a turbine. I am running lighting for the whole house, computer equipment, and tv's. Do a google search for "garbogen" for a fairly simple windgen with a useable output.

If you go for a disc alt, it can be done, but not at 5mph windspeed with a 2 foot rotor.

There are also ametek motors used as windmills with decent output.

Do a bit of reading - there is an endless amount of information available on this site. People here will help you as much as they can, but make the effort to research your questions before posting.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 08:50:01 PM by Spdlmt150 »

SamoaPower

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2007, 09:33:28 PM »
It's even worse than you thought.


P = 1/2 x rho x V^3 x A x E x K


where P = power in watts from alternator

rho = air density = .0023 slugs/ft^3 at STP

V = velocity in mph = 5

A = area in ft^2 = 28.27 (6' dia)

E = efficiency = .25 overall

K = units factor = 4.31


In this case P = 4.38 Watts


It's hard to get much power from such low wind speeds. The only way you're going to get 100 Watts from a two foot rotor is in a gale.


73 de AH8A

« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 09:33:28 PM by SamoaPower »

Flux

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2007, 12:25:35 AM »
You will need to find out what winds you have. If you want this power on a specific day then the chances are remote unless you live in an exceptional wind area.


If the thing is to be left running, charging batteries then if it is well sited on a decent spot then you may do some good.


There is no chance of extracting power from a 5mph wind form any machine under 10ft diameter, you will not supply the bearing losses. The power increases so rapidly with wind speed that you can probably extract something from a 5mph AVERAGE wind speed with a 4 ft machine.


The wind distribution is such that at 5 mph average you will have winds above and below that average figure. As the power follows speed cubed you get much more from the periods above the average.


Two ft machines are little more than ornaments except in a gale. Even at 6ft you are not going to see better than 40W at 10 mph, but you will do well with 10mph average  windspeed.


If this is for a one day event then I think you would do better to forget it, but if it is a permanent site then check out your wind speed and see if it is worthwhile.


When you look at 10ft machines producing 1kW don't forget that that will be in winds over 25mph. Also the power falls as the sqr root of diameter.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 12:25:35 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2007, 12:27:55 AM »
Forgot to say that if you do have winds that may make it look possible then come back for the rest of the advice about design. Pointless giving ideas without any idea of size and what you can hope for.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 12:27:55 AM by Flux »

hvirtane

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2007, 01:58:51 AM »
You can calculate roughly the power you will get from a home made machine:


P = 0,15 x (DxD) x (VxVxV)


D is the diameter of your wind rotor, V is the wind speed. If all is SI system, the answer is in Watts.


If D is 1 m and V is 10 m/s,

the Power is 150 Watts.


If D is 1 m and V is 5 m/s

P = 0,15 x (1x1) x (5x5x5) = 18,75 Watts.


A description for a simple machine, if you don't want to invest your time for making a generator (the furling system is missing!):


http://www.mdpub.com/Wind_Turbine/index.html


If you don't want to make any kind of blades yourself, please see about the blades as made by the guy called 'Jerry' on this site. Please see this, too:


http://www.tlgwindpower.com/allrotors.htm


- Hannu

« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 01:58:51 AM by hvirtane »

fungus

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2007, 04:13:47 AM »
I'd suggest an ametek with maybe 4' blades. This should give you some reasonable power with a top end of 100w. It does depend on the wind conditions as said above though. There really isnt much power in 2' blades. I connected my 2' blades to an ametek for experimenting and it took a real gust to even start it moving with bearing losses, brush losses etc. Furling generally isnt needed(but is a good thing to have) on machines 4'dia or below since they tend to be pretty 'self limiting' since they go at such a high speed.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 04:13:47 AM by fungus »

hvirtane

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2007, 04:36:04 AM »
Furling generally isn't needed(but is a good thing to have) on machines 4' dia or below since they tend to be pretty 'self limiting' since they go at such a high speed.


That is an interesting point. It might work the same way if you'll make a big machine with really high TSR?


- Hannu

« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 04:36:04 AM by hvirtane »

KC8QVO

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2007, 11:02:46 AM »
Spdlmt150, right. Thats how this would be set up. I have been playing around with the idea of solar power too, both systems would require charging batteries for power. A wind turbine, specifically, wouldnt produce a smoothe enough elctrical flow to make use of directly, unless you wanted a light bulb that dimed and got bright with the wind hehehe. I would also have to rectify it before the current went through the charge controller.


I was hoping to switch over to wind power, rather than solar power, because I can build a turbine for not a lot of $$ compared to a decent size solar panel (which I cant make, easily anyway). I figure I need about 30 watts at 13.5 volts to keep up with my main radio in normal conditions ON THE LOWEST TRANSMIT POWER I CAN GET (5w). The solar panel idea would work, but the panel would be expensive and to get the 30 watts on cloudy days to keep up with the radio I would need a much bigger panel (I havent even gone that far with it though). The way I figured out the 30 watts is by calculating the current consumption on rx duty cycle and tx duty cycle (in this case, 3/4 rx 1/4 tx). In most situations I would not be that active on the radio though, so the time I dont have anything on is time for the battery(ies) to charge back up.


Speaking of batteries, a decent size car battery, say the old one out of my truck (I think its about 800ah) would power the radio for a day or two with out a charge. I would need sufficient current to keep the battery charged up though. I could combine wind and solar, but thats more stuff.


The other item of consiteration with wind power is I can break down a turbine to fit in a backpack - pull the blades off, the alternator, and the fin thing and it wouldnt be very big at all. I am thinking more along the lines of portable operations, ie - camping, not necessarily hiking 20 miles. Even a 6' turbine would be manageable - the blades would be slightly less than 3', no bigger than my broken down fly rod. A few sections of surplus aluminum tent poles would get it up to 15-20', and also not be very heavy. The trick would be to build the alternator not too heavy (ie, break rotors = lots of weight) and have a small battery (7-8ah SLA). A solar panel on the other hand is going to be one solid piece, unless I go with a roll-up panel, but those are even more expensive. I could go with a couple 15 watt panels, but they are still pretty good size rectangles, and again cost is an issue there.


So back to the wind turbine. I am going to be harnessing the power from the higher sustained winds and gusts then. It sounds like, from what you all have said, that 10mph seems to be the key number. Anything 10mph or higher will produce a decent amount of electricity. I live in Ohio, if I remember right we are in the 1 or 2 wind category (I know, not very good). This power system will be used all over the place, all the way up to my family's place in Canada (and it does blow pretty good - we have an open 8 miles of lake to the south, nothing to stop the wind), so I wont be confined to using it in one place. Heck, I could build a couple of these and power our whole cabin hehehe. Then, the expensive part would be batteries. And lots of them, well.. and a few inverters.


Steve  

« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 11:02:46 AM by KC8QVO »

wdyasq

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2007, 11:43:41 AM »
Steve,


I don't think there is a gentle way to get to this - so - here it is. You don't have an 800AH vehicle battery unless you are possibly driving a locomotive. An 8D MIGHT hit 300AH at 12V - but I doubt it. 2 Golf cart batteries in series are ~200AH at 12V - you get to use about 25% if you want the batteries to live. That is ~50AH and with a 2.5A draw ~20 Hours of use.


I think your best 'bang for the pound' will be a 3PH motor conversion. Zubbly has built some from ~1HP motors that put out in excess of 500W and live. Possibly a 1/3 or 1/2HP 4 or 6 pole motor could be adapted for your use.


You could easily kill an 8AH battery in a couple of months if not sooner by daily milking every watt out of it. For really efficient systems all DC is not a bad idea. And as long we are talking batteries and inverters, 12V sucks. 24V or 48V is a much more practical solution. You will like the lower wiring costs too.


Just a bit of food for thought. You will want to get a real watt meter to measure your appliance power draw for your planned cabin and check your radio gear with an amp-meter.


Enjoy,


Ron

« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 11:43:41 AM by wdyasq »
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Hoskald

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2007, 03:11:03 PM »
ON THE LOWEST TRANSMIT POWER I CAN GET (5w)


QRP is great! hi hi


73,

Hos

KD5TGN

« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 03:11:03 PM by Hoskald »

South Easter

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2007, 11:34:58 AM »
Hi Steve.  You may want to check out the turbines I have made - see website below.  Its a bit heavy for a backpack, especially a six meter mounting pole!  But the generator itself could be made lighter by using thinner steel plate for the rotors (I used 6mm).
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 11:34:58 AM by South Easter »

KC8QVO

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2007, 04:35:20 PM »
OK, I lied. My NEW truck battery is 800 (cca, not ah). The old one is 600 cca hehehe. Ill look into converting cca to ah.


As for going to 24 or 48v, I think Ill stay at 12v. It is going to be the easiest route to go for the radio equiptment. I wont have to go through any voltage conversion to power the equiptment.


If I can power a dozen LED lights and a TV I think we could manage at the cabin. It would only be a back up system, I doubt I could get everything switched over to wind power. It would be neat though.


So, right now I just want a portable power system for the radios (and some other things).


Ill look into alternator designs here and see what I come up with. Ill post some more questions when Im getting closer to getting this thing together.


Steve

« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 04:35:20 PM by KC8QVO »

willib

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Re: Small turbine ideas
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2007, 08:30:47 AM »
I like your site ,Welcome to the board
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 08:30:47 AM by willib »
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