Author Topic: Converting a Star PMA into Delta  (Read 3207 times)

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Usman

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Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« on: September 29, 2007, 04:50:44 AM »


My previous posts raise another point that I seem to have ignored.


I bought a cyclone wind generator (generator head only without the other turbine goodies) that was rated at 2KW at 350 rpm, fairly heavy and bulky. It was originally a 110V (18amps) unit but I pulled another 3 wires so I could use that in delta configuration for 48V battery charging.


My concern:



  1. - Would that effect the upper end limit of the power production i.e. would it still produce 2000W at 48V configuration - 36amps @ 48V instead of 18amps @ 110V?
  2. -Secondly, would this change over now also shift the battery cutin voltage and adversely affect the efficiency i.e. it may cutin at half the rated rpm, since due to half the rated volts, resulting in stalling the rotor?
  3. -Or it could be that the windings may not support that?


OR


Would it act equally as efficient in Delta mode - without any side effects?


The electrician told me that in Delta mode, the power rating would even be higher i.e. it may end up producing 2.3KW instead of 2KW (rough example) at the same rated rpm. More efficient!


If this star to delta switch over is not recommended, would direct-hookup to the 48V battery pack be better or more efficient comparatively?


Please advice.


Thanks.


Usman.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 04:50:44 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 01:14:23 AM »
What was the original 110v rating that you mention. Seems an odd battery voltage ( would have expected 120).


You will need to clarify the intended use before I can give an answer. Was the 110v ac or rectified dc and was it originally intended to charge batteries direct.


As you only seem to have the generator and are changing the blades then little of its original characteristics matter.


You should get the same power out at the same speed in delta at the equivalent voltage, which is 110/1.73 = 63.5v.


If the 110 was intended battery voltage then you are a bit lower with your 48v battery and cut in will be a bit below the original figure, but this is guesswork without any idea of the original use. 63.5v ac would give about 88v dc.


Flux

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 01:14:23 AM by Flux »

Usman

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 01:47:12 AM »
Just thought to add some further comments.


Please bare in mind that we are not selecting the voltage by opting for Star or Delta for optimizing efficiency at different wind speeds, here the situation is different, i.e. we are attempting to optimize a PMA that was originally meant to charge a 110V battery-pack to a lower 48V volt battery pack.


Thanks.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 01:47:12 AM by Usman »

Flux

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 03:06:50 AM »
Thanks for confirming the fact that it was 110 v dc battery.


Connecting delta it would directly be equivalent to 63v battery. That is at the high end for equalising your 48v so for most of the time you would have a lower cut in speed and lower full power speed.


Using the original blades then if they were perfectly optimised for the 110 star then you would be running a bit below their optimum speed and perhaps a bit towards stall.


As we don't know where on the curve they were optimised then it is difficult to know if this would help or hinder you at 48v. The lower cut in speed may help in low winds and the stall at the top end may knock your performance a bit at rated wind speed but I don't think the effect would be great.


As you are not using the original blades then you can match your blades to the slightly lower speed.


In theory you are overloading the machine at 2kW into less than the 63v, but in real life it will still manage a few more amps and still do the 2kW.


Delta will almost certainly lower the low wind efficiency a bit but as it seems to be an iron cored alternator I doubt that you will see the difference. It may be that in delta it will stand the overload better and you may still be within the original 2kW figure at lower speed and volts.


It is highly unlikely that you will be able to do much in star at the 48v as you are on the low speed side already in delta. You may be able to keep it in star to gain a couple of mph at the low wind end. I doubt that it will be worth the trouble of switching. Star mode will tend to stall you and remove a lot of the benefit of the lower cut in.


Star delta may be a reasonable choice if you were working at 80v dc but even then the virtues of star delta are not great, the change over is coarse and neither characteristic is usually right at change over. you also spend lots of time in the wrong mode unless you switch far too often and hammer the contactors.


Flux

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 03:06:50 AM by Flux »

Usman

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2007, 11:00:05 AM »
Hi Flux,


I bought this one off someone who had literally little experience with such terminologies, but he mention that he was using this on a 100V battery pack. So, I would assume that it would be designed for 110V battery-pack direct hook-up.


Now, since I have a lower battery-pack voltage of 48VDC, I was suggested by my electrician to opt for Delta configuration instead of using a step-down transformer, due to efficiency losses.


I would like to re-mention that, this situation is slightly different as with respect to others where someone is exploring the suitable configuration, whether star or delta, for optimizing efficiency whereas we are changing the battery voltage (almost 50% Lower).. So, we cannot compare an apple to an orange.


The PMA is very heavy and bulky, and only rated at 350-450 rpm directly driven by a 10 footer at 7-9 m/s wind speeds. (no exact figures available from the seller or the nameplate).


In addition, let me also inform you that I geared it up to 1:3.5 with a larger rotor, almost 6.3m (20 footer), so that


A-I could even have better low wind performance and

b- Have a 'HIGHER KW RATING' as the PMA seems more than capable of 250% overload i.e. in high wind speeds, it had previously output 50-55Amps for the 110V battery-pack! (instead of originally designed 18-22Amps, as mentioned by the seller, but I have no doubts considering its size and heavy duty construction compared to other PMAs).


This was another reason to configure it into Delta as I would now have it tuned at higher rpm than previously.


So, summarizing the project, we have had two alterations,



  1. -    The Star configured into Delta
  2. -    The PMA geared up by 1 to 3.5 rpm by a 21 footer instead of a 10 footer. (almost 4 times the power available from wind than originally!)


I hope that enables you to advise further.


Thanks.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 11:00:05 AM by Usman »

Flux

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2007, 11:47:07 AM »
Not exactly sure what more you want to know.


For 48v it was already slower then originally intended even connected delta.


3.5:1 speed increase on 20 ft put it into the even slower category. As you don't give prop tsr I can't really judge but it seems very likely that you will be well towards stall. I think you can forget all ideas of star connection, that would bring the cut in far too low even in low winds.


I think you should do perfectly well in low winds with the much larger rotor. You are going to have to limit the peak power to a safe level so make sure you have plenty of offset and build the furling appropriately.


As for overload, yes it will no doubt stand some overload, much depends on the insulation temperature grade and the life expectancy you aim for. It will see full output power for far longer periods with your larger rotor, so don't push your luck too far without proper load tests measuring temperature rise.


I have no idea of the construction or the type of magnets so it is difficult to know whether it will continue to increase output with speed or whether it will level off. There is a small possibility that pushing the output current excessively may cause enough armature reaction to partly demagnetise the magnets. If it has done 250% overload before then it will already have happened or it is not likely to happen at 250% in future.


I think I would settle for 3kW, perhaps with the odd peak up to 4kW during gusts before furling kicks in. If you could run at 110v in delta with your speed increase then you may have got up to the 5kW region.


Flux

« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 11:47:07 AM by Flux »

Usman

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2007, 05:32:02 PM »


Thanks Flux,


Many thanks for your continuous timely feedbacks; I think you have managed to satisfy me on this.


All this discussion makes me convinced that if one could implement fairly simple automation & control parameters, the efficiency of any turbine could be improved drastically. Let me suggest a few possibilities in the next posting.


Only further confirmation I would like to have is if there was a way to calculate what is the ideal rotor RPM for battery cutin so to ensure it wouldn't approach towards stall. If your answer is the blade tsr, just a rough presumption, then my experience is rotor weight and turbine's friction (unnecessary resistance) in the drive-train that results from improper fabrication, misalignments etc... also paly a vital role.


A heavier rotor may not stall at a 'certain low rpm' as a result of pre-mature or 'early-than-should-be' battery cutin voltage, because of the momentum into the rotor (mass x speed) however a lighter weight rotor would tend to stall at that 'certain low rpm' since the rpm remains constant but the weight or mass is comparatively lower.


If my analysis above is correct than why not we should always opt for a heavier rotor? A heavier rotor may not start up spinning in low winds as early as lighter rotors, but for larger, directly driven, low rpm turbines (15 footer +) I presume a heavier rotor is more suitable.


So, summarizing;



  1. -    if there was a way to calculate what is the ideal rotor RPM for battery cutin,
  2. -    Rotor weight critics for larger mills Vs smaller ones.


Thanks, Usman.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 05:32:02 PM by Usman »

Flux

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2007, 01:09:58 AM »
In theory the ideal cut in is not related to stall, this situation only comes about when you try to pick the best characteristics to cover a reasonable wind speed range with a simple directly connected alternator.


The ideal cut in speed is when the rotor can supply the losses for the available wind speed. There is little energy in low winds and until you can supply the associated losses you will get no output whatever speed you choose.Iron cored machines have iron losses at cut in as well as friction, so they need a higher wind speed to produce the energy to supply theses losses. By the time that you are just beyond cut in, the ideal speed would be that which brings your prop to the peak of its power curve ( design tsr).


With the normal method of connection the prop power curve slope is very low near cut in and the alternator curve is far steeper so you go rapidly towards stall almost beyond cut in. Normally we make two compromises to reduce this effect. We raise the cut in speed so that the prop is running fast at cut in and has a chance to get some way up the wind speed range before its power has fallen to the peak of the curve ( it will be below peak ,on the fast side to start with).You are also shifting your working range more towards the steeper part of the power curve by doing this.


The other compromise we are forced to make is to lower the slope of the alternator power curve so that it is much more parallel to the prop power curve over the most useful wind speed range.


The final consequence of all this fiddling is that we can choose the lowest possible cut in and have good low wind performance but with a lower operating efficiency in higher winds or we can choose a higher cut in that will worsen the very low wind performance but will let us run more efficiently in the sort of winds that produce most of the power.


If you aim for the lowest possible cut in for the very best performance at cut in, you will produce a few watts on occasions where you may otherwise get none, but the trade off is that you will need to make the alternator so inefficient to get the power curve slope low enough that you will be running fairly inefficiently in mid winds and by the time you reach higher winds you may not be able to load the prop effectively and you will be relying heavily on your furling to prevent the thing running away.


Things tend to work fairly well with a prop intended for tsr6 if you choose cut in with the prop running at tsr8 or a bit more at 7mph wind speed for air gap machines. With iron cored machines then you may not get down to 7mph cut in if you can't supply the extra iron loss so many of these machines cut in about 8 to 10 mph and are far less influenced by stall.


Fortunately the blades ( at least with my methods of construction) do seem happy to run faster than the design tsr in low winds and they don't seem to mind running slower than the theoretical in high winds. This obviously makes the compromises less damaging than it would otherwise be.


When matched throughout the speed range the ideal prop speed would directly track the wind speed. I find that even with correct matching the prop wants to run slower than the ideal in high winds ( presumably something to do with excess drag). This does seem to limit the maximum gain from a mppt scheme in very high winds, but perhaps it does have the advantage that we are not too tempted to run into the sort of speeds that cause serious noise and blade leading edge erosion.


I have no reason to believe that increasing rotor inertia has any merit, it will smooth the power out but I can't see it doing anything to minimise stall and as the cf and gyroscopic forces rise with increased mass I think that taking this to extremes is a bad idea. Power out is determined by the power available in the wind and if you extract short term power from the inertia of the blades then you have to wait to replace the energy during the next gust whereas the light rotor would give a little power blip in that gust.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 01:09:58 AM by Flux »

DamonHD

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2007, 01:30:53 AM »
Is there a graph of typical voltage vs RPM vs wind speed to hand?


I was wondering if it should be and/or is actually linear, at least away from the extremes of the operating range.


I was assuming that if roughly linear the implication is that max Watts available would be proportional to the cube of the voltage (ignoring wiring resistance) and thus schemes for extracting energy at low RPMs need to be scaled down to account for that.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 01:30:53 AM by DamonHD »
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Baling Wire

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2007, 08:47:13 AM »
Flux and Others:

   As a Newbie to wind generation, I believe the info in this last post can NOT be over

emphasized.  I have seen IT in other places; but I think Flux has "summed IT up well" here!


BW

   

« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 08:47:13 AM by Baling Wire »

Flux

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2007, 09:20:56 AM »
Yes that makes sense. To work at constant tsr the prop speed should be directly proportional to wind speed. Open circuit alternator voltage is directly proportional to rotational speed.


The thing is complicated somewhat by alternator losses in real life and with an alternator of reasonable practical efficiency it works out nearer to power tracking speed squared than speed cubed but your idea is right.


The snag is that we insist on preventing the voltage from rising ( we clamp it directly to a constant voltage battery) so the current then should rise as the speed cubed, whereas a real alternator will more likely let current rise directly with speed if it is the air gap type. many iron cored machines actually have a curve that tails off with load rather than rising more steeply as should happen.


It is this constant voltage restraint that brings us into this stall issue. With heating loads things are much easier except that a battery prevents load before cut in and there is no starting problem. heating loads tend to cause stall during start up as the load is always present unless switched off during start.


I don't know about your typical graph, I am not aware that anyone has plotted one but there are fairly well known figures for cut in speed for typical props with tsr about 6 and perhaps you could plot all these on a graph. It would not be particularly accurate as as I have said above, all this is fudged to make a good compromise between cut in and high wind performance with directly connected PMA's rectified and clamped to a battery.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 09:20:56 AM by Flux »

DamonHD

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 09:42:29 AM »
My interest here is in piggybacking a small/simple/efficient voltage doubler on the back of a normal turbine 3-phase rectifier to extract a trickle-charging current at a speed significantly below the normal cut-in, and indeed drawing a current small enough to be unlikely to induce stall.  The aim is to maximise power extraction in a low-wind urban environment for a nominally 12V system.


If available output power does fall off at something like the cube of the voltage then I should only be trying to extract maybe <10% of the cut-in power (at half voltage) to avoid inducing a stall, I think.


My design is a simplified CW for a 3-phase turbine.


I can draw it up if anyone is interested: it's not earth-shattering.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 09:42:29 AM by DamonHD »
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DamonHD

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 09:45:33 AM »
Hmm, but I think I've hijacked this thread, so I'll start another if anyone is interested...


Apologies to OP.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 09:45:33 AM by DamonHD »
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Usman

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 04:04:40 AM »
Hello again,


I received a feedback from Hugh; he raised another issue:


"On the whole I prefer to avoid delta connections as they tend to be less efficient when running into a rectifier.  There are harmonic currents."



  1. -Does this mean lower efficiency?
  2. -Is that really a credible issue? If so, both bridge rectifying diodes as well as the bridge rectifiers (preassembled) are subjected to this risk?
  3. -Wouldn't I be better trading off the delta conversion by using it as a star connection and use a step-down AC voltage converter (dry type- AC transformer) before rectifiers? Wouldn't that make the low speed cut in even harder as the rotor has to overcome the transformer's resistance, as well conversion losses, heat, reliability and overall efficiency etc……


Thanks.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 04:04:40 AM by Usman »

Usman

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Re: Converting a Star PMA into Delta
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 11:43:46 AM »
Hello again,


I received a feedback from Hugh; he raised another issue here:


"On the whole I prefer to avoid delta connections as they tend to be less efficient when running into a rectifier.  There are harmonic currents."



  1. -Does this mean lower efficiency?
  2. -Is that really a credible issue? If so, both bridge rectifying diodes as well as the bridge rectifiers (preassembled) are subjected to this risk?
  3. -Wouldn't I be better trading off the delta conversion by using it as a star connection and use a step-down AC voltage converter (dry type- AC transformer) before rectifiers? Wouldn't that make the low speed cut in even harder as the rotor has to overcome the transformer's resistance, as well conversion losses, heat, reliability and overall efficiency etc……


Thanks.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 11:43:46 AM by Usman »