Turbie? Vertical Shaft Wind Turbine

[byndhlpng]

I dont have a website, but I saw this on an alternative energy information program.

It is a vertical shaft wind turbine.  This is definitely not a "toy" but the real McCoy. They called it "Turbie or Turby"  It doesnt have the traditional blades and there is no tail needed to keep it turned into the wind.  I havent heard how efficient it might be yet or in what minmum conditions it will need.  If it works well in low winds then it will probably suit my needs. It is also supposed to be much quieter too.  Any further info ? They said it should reach public markets this year. Im not totally sure on that tho. They had one mounted on a round pole and it didnt seem to be extremely high in the air either.  Then they had several on an apartment building in Chicago (Multi stories).

The same show talked about the advancements in lithium Ion batteries for energy storage.  Mainly looking to use them in Electric Vehicles and or hybrids. 7 times lighter too.

I wonder how many of those litle lithium batteries would fit in an empty beer can??

Cheers,

Byndhlpng

[DamonHD]

It's called a VAWT (Vertical Axis Wind Turbine) unless I've misunderstood you.

Google here and on the Web for more.  Then realise that that buzzing sound you can hear is a hornet's nest being stirred!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[byndhlpng]

Damon,

As usual I am way behind again........ anyway this gives me a chance to say it sounded a little pricy. ($15K installed).

Dang it..... it's hard to type with my finger stuck in the hole of my beer can......

Saved the beer tho

Byndhlpng

[vawtman]

A link to the turbine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turby_wind_turbine

[byndhlpng]

You can see it and read a little about it here:

Energy blog:    http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/04/turby_vertical_.html

[vawtsup]

Here's some info on Li-Polymer batteries, Li-Ion batteries and others

http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm

You'll choke on the price.

Ron

[byndhlpng]

Excellant website,(metricmind.com) especially for Electric Vehicle converters.  In one section, he talks about all battery possibilities that are available in todays market.(changing constantly it seems)

Your right.....the best is VERY EXPENSIVE right now.  I did,however, discover some types I had not heard of before.  Tons of pics here too!!!

Is well worth the visit.

Byndhlpng

[spinningmagnets]

Hi, you sounded a little frustrated in one of your other posts, so I thought I'd pass along some of what I've found while studying here for myself.

The whole "Green" thing is trendy in general conversation these days, so a lot of new companies have cropped up overnight to sell icecubes to the eskimos.

Be very wary of manufacturer claims. If a pill actually grew thick hair on cue-balls, you wouldn't be reading about it in a magazine ad. Same with skin wrinkle creams, and miracle diet pills.

VAWT's are fun and interesting, but haven't been very useful from a Watt-per-dollar investment. There is a quirk in alternators where if you double the RPM's, you'll get about 4 times the Watts. High RPM's are the best bang for your buck.

(There are a few people who aren't allowed to have a prop that is 60 feet in the air, but they can have a fat VAWT as tall as their house on the ground, which would be better than nothing)

A large diameter VAWT will spin slow, and a small diameter VAWT will spin faster in the same speed of wind, but with less torque. Gearing with toothed belts like a cars timing belt to convert the torque to higher RPM's on the PMA is less efficient. Of course, since wind is free, you could use a very high tooth gear (efficiency aside) and keep making the VAWT wider and taller until it makes enough power to spin the PMA fast enough to charge up your battery pack.

The PMA will cost about the same for either a VAWT or a Prop-style wind-gen. The cost and effort difference will be between the prop, pole, and tail compared to the VAWT. The prop-style may end up costing less money and effort, and will consistently produce more Watts in all wind conditions.

In higher winds, VAWT's don't overspeed because of the build-up of air pressure in front of it, which pushes against the blade that is swinging forward, which then works against the blade that is being pushed back on the other side. However, this also means that a lot of potential power is bypassed.

If you are comitted to building a VAWT, the "Lenz2" is widely regarded as being as good as a VAWT gets. Go to "www.windstuffnow.com"

Lithium batteries are very expensive. They last many more cycles, and can be cycled more deeply than lead/acid. Lead has a lower cost during the initial investment, and even with replacing them more often than Lithiums, the long-term cost is still better. You can buy large lead batteries, but the Tesla electric car had to use several thousand small lithiums cells.

Independence is expensive. You may end up spending thousands of dollars to save $100 worth of electricity each month, but at least you'll have electricity when your neighbors are stuck in a black-out.

If you actually want to design a system for yourself, the first step is to buy a $20 "Kill-A-Watt" meter to accurately measure the daily consumption of your major appliances, and then drastically reduce your use. Then you can start selecting components that match your new baseline.

[byndhlpng]

Spin,

You are very helpful and i appreciate your not using a bunch of formulas to explain your opinion.

Since this is my thread I presume it is ok to change the subject without being ridiculed?

The Turbie has a 2.1KW rating and I see all sorts of ratings for other manufactured generators.  Will some one please explain the "Rating" and what it means to me as a potential buyer/owner? If you were one of the fortunate ones to read my Post "Just the facts Please" before admin deleted it then you would understand the way and reason for the wording of my question.  Please keep in mind that I DO NOT nor intend to build my own.

Well let's see how this one goes.

Byndhlpng

[fungus]

The rating doesnt really mean much at all;

There's no standard defined way to measure power output or at what windspeed.

Manufacturers often deliberately 'up' the ratings to make their products look better.

The rating often doesnt take turbulance into account at all.

Etc etc, imho I would just forget the power ratings and look at the size, as there will be not a very large variation in power output vs. size from different manufacturers.

[byndhlpng]

Lets try this....... lets say that the generator DOES Produce 2.1 KW.  If it is indeed producing 2.1KW what does it mean to me as a buyer / owner?  Is 2.1 kw the number of kilowatts per week month year? If it is producing 2.1 kw how can I take that information and apply it to my electric consumption?  (eg does 2.1 kw mean I will probably get "X" amount of kilowatt hours per month?  All I want is enough information to make an qualified decision on what to buy.

Byndhlpng

[TomW]

The 2.1 KW is an instantaneous value.

TomW

[finnsawyer]

1.2 kw times 24 hours times 30 comes out to 864 KWHRs month.  So, let's say the actual output will average 20% of that.  So, you end up with a grand total of 86 KWHRs of energy per month for an investment of $15,000.  I think you would do better with solar.  You should get at least 4 kw of solar for that money.  But even with that your average output will be less.  Or maybe you should just invest the money in some utility stock (they pay dividends).

[byndhlpng]

I have spent the past few months trying to investigate the wothiness of RE. Nobody here seems to have that answer for me.  The more I hear on this forum the more I am convinced that my money might be better invested elsewhere.  Is RE a noble cause? I couldnt tellya because I cant get a straight answer about anything.  Am I frustrated? Yes I am and I dont think I should have to be.

Byndhlpng

[fungus]

Most wind turbines are rated at around 30mph winds, of course you will never see this, I think there was a figure that you could get 30% of that average on a very good wind site, on most it'll be more like 15% . You are right in a way, RE isnt very cost effective as a replacement for grid, unless you need lines run to you to get grid when it can be very cost effective or when you get into ultra-sized commercial turbines. But most of the people here find it fun building, tinkering etc with their wind turbines/solar and learn more in the process.

One thing that is very cost effective is solar water heating though.

[finnsawyer]

Actually, I think you got a lot of straight answers.  The problem is, you don't ask the right questions or provide all the information.  Case in point:

   "I have spent the past few months trying to investigate the wothiness of RE."

At what level?  I recently saw a report to the effect that the large wind turbines supposedly can now produce power at a cost of $0.03 per kilowatt hour.  That would appear to be economically feasible.  You never specified initially where your interest lay.  0.1 kw? 1 kw? 10?  Also, I think you were looking for a cut and dry answer.  You were lazy.  RE is a work in progress.  Advances could come from a number of directions.  Well, RE on the small scale.  I too have been interested in advancing small scale RE, if possible.  But I have also been aware of the difficulties.  I know I can't make a better solar cell.  But with wind power it's different.  And small scale wind power has advanced.  The rare earth magnets and solid state rectifiers contributed to that leading, among other things, to this site.  You could invest your $15,000 dollars in a company building the big wind turbines or you could put together your own system for $500 to $1,000, learn something, maybe try something new, and maybe help advance the area.  Let's face it wind turbines operating at 30% to 35% efficiency still hold out the hope of improving things.  

[DamonHD]

I've only spent the 'last few months' getting to grips with RE myself.

However, though my understanding remains limited I have (a) found this place very useful (b) avoided insulting most of those who helped me (c) built several prototypes for wind and solar based systems that I actually use every day, eg for lighting my office and (d) after some careful consideration have made a ~US$15k investment in a solar PV grid-tie system signed yesterday.

That investment of mine is, I hope, worthy, and I hope contributes to reducing global warming and to being a lever to persuade others to do the same.  It will never save me money, and the grid-tie system won't even save me from power cuts as-is.  So it's not worthy as a purely financial or energy-security investment.

Getting RE to work for you is, IMHO, an engineering pursuit.  And if you haven't got (or refuse to get) the right mindset then you'll go on being annoyed rather than enlightened.

You're going to have to grasp the nettle and understand the difference (say) between kW and kWh before accusing others of blinding you with science, and understand that projects may be worthy for difference and conflicting reasons, eg "money" often does not equal "green" except in US paper money.

Rgds

Damon

PS. And changing the topic of even "your" threads is not usually helpful.

[byndhlpng]

$15,000 / 0.08 = 187,500 KWH / 4000(kwh per month)= 46 months.

Just the facts(no interest or rate of inflation considered either)

In the past 4 years I have had one power outage wich lasted 11 hours.

[spinningmagnets]

I would like to retire in a few years to a piece of property where I can have a couple of wind-gens. That being said, I have no actual experience.

If you build some of the components yourself, you can have a complete and comprehensive RE system (large expensive battery, charge controller, inverter, two wind-gens, a listeroid diesel back-up) for the $15,000. (maybe even a couple used solar PV panels)

I don't know anyone who has actual experience with a "Turbie", but $15K is a lot of money. It's probably a decent product, but if you didn't want to build anything, you might be happier with the results if you bought several large tracking solar PV panels and a listeroid diesel back-up for cloudy days.

A Watt is a unit of work that is made up of a balance between Volts (electrical pressure) and amps (volume of flow). If you need a 750 Watt motor (one horse-power) to do a job, it can be a very small 4.2 Amp motor at 120V, or, you can use a large 42 Amp motor that uses 12V.

By this manufacturer claiming 2.1 Kilowatts (2,100 Watts) he's saying that if you order the 48-Volt PMA, it will put out about 44 Amps. (did I do that right?)

This is the maximum possible output, probably in high winds and perfect conditions. I would not be surprised if actual max output is 20% less. The biggest problem is, how often do you have max winds? If you are in a poor wind site, a $50,000 wind-gen isn't going to be any better.

Generators of every type work best in a fairly narrow RPM range. One that has decent output at lower winds (if that's the wind your stuck with) may overheat in a high wind storm. One that's designed for high output in strong winds may provide almost no Watts at half its design RPM. What type of wind do you have, and how often?

This RE stuff barely makes any financial sense if you do most of the building and work yourself, but it sounds like you're talking about spending $20K+ to buy ready made components so you'll save $100 a month.

If you "just want to see" what getting off the grid will cost, it costs a lot. If you live in a very remote area, the power company might charge you $15K just to run power lines to your property. In that situation, go RE all the way. Add more as you can afford it.

Cutting way back on your electrical usage first, will save you tons of money on sizing an adequate RE system. Its MUCH cheaper to buy a low-Watt TV, Lights, Fridge, etc,...than buying a bigger power system.

Ask your electric company what your average monthly Kilowatt usage is, call a Trojan battery distributor and ask him how big a pack he recommends for that load. Calculate how much average sun and wind you have and estimate how big a wind-gen and solar PV you can afford. As you cut back on your usage, and increase the amount of RE you generate, you will find the right size for you. If you spend $15K on a Turbie, it will make some Watts. If your loads are very light, and your winds are good and steady, it may be enough.

Best of luck, and please post your results.

[ghurd]

Try this.

My kitchen faucet is rated to flow 3 gallons per minute, max.

That's 180 gallons per hour. 4320 gallons per day.  129,600 gallons per month.

But that is not how much water comes out of it in a month.

I don't have any clue how much comes out of it in a month.  

It changes from month to month, like if we are on vacation for 3 weeks that month.

And just because it is rated at 3 gallons per minute doesn't mean if it was flowing for 1 minute then 3 gallons came out.  It could be anywhere from 0.01 to 3 gallons in that minute.

We know some of this is a bit confusing, but a lot of your questions are like "My faucet is rated at 3 gallons per minute. How much water do I use in a month."

G-

[TomW]

G;

I like that analogy. I often use water to describe simple circuits, potential, current and the like. Sometimes I like to delve into the whole speil from hole theory vs. electron theory with a discussion of valence electrons tossed in. By then they are asleep and I can sneak away ;=].

Cheers.

TomW

[finnsawyer]

Not sure what the point of this little analysis is.  You may be using 4,000 Kwh per month.  The Turbie might produce 150 Kwh per month, which would be a drop in your usage bucket.

Maybe it's time to use wind power to produce hydrogen.  Honda plans to lease a limited number of fuel cell cars this summer for $600 per month on three year leases.  But 150 Kwh won't provide much of a ride, as that's only about 2 hours of running at 100 horse power.  And that doesn't take into account losses in making and storing the hydrogen.

[byndhlpng]

Finnsawyer,

This posting was shuffled in with some previous post replies and I missed it.

You (I think lol ) have answered my basic question.

"1.2 kw times 24 hours times 30 comes out to 864 KWHRs month.  So, let's say the actual output will average 20% of that.  So, you end up with a grand total of 86 KWHRs of energy per month for an investment of $15,000."

I understand also that most of you believe that the "ratings" are distorted information by the manufacturers. (And so be it )  Now it is further my understanding that I will "Realistically" only achieve approximately 20% of the "Rated" output.

Example A : Turbin "Rated" at 5KW.....5 * 24 * 30 = 3600 kwh *20% = 720 KWH

Example B: Turbin rated at 10KW......10 * 24 * 30 = 7200 kwh * 20% = 1440 KWH

Example C:  Turbin rated at 7.8 KW...... 7.8 * 24 * 30 = 5616 * 20% = 1232 KWH

Is this the "Basic " principle?

Am I correct then in "assuming" I will now need to "Research" and find what "Size" turbin I can use in the Wind conditions of my location?

I don't see to well and I appologize if my error caused any hard feelings.

I am not lazy nor do I ever intend to insult or ridicule any one.

I hope you will continue to assist me in the future.

Byndhlpng  

[finnsawyer]

Yes, it would be a good idea to find out the wind profile for your area.  Of course, the wind speed increases with height above the ground.  Unless you put the VAWT on the top of a silo (not built for it, of course), the VAWT is immediately at a disadvantage relative to a HAWT.  Well, good luck.

[byndhlpng]

I am not totally sold on the VAWT and if anyone prefers something else I am all ears.  Will a 10 KW work very well in 7 or 8 mph.  7 to 8 being the average with fairly consistant between 7 to 14.  See? here Im gonna be lost again.  Let me put it this way. Summer months daily averages are 7 and 8 winter months averages are more like 12 to 14.  Have seen many times when wind might blow 20 or more for two or three days too. across the whole year I was told to relate 7 or 8 mph as the daily windpeed average.  They (NWS/CDCC?)  told me to expect to achieve those speeds the majority of the time. I'm guessing there needs to be safe guards to protect the turbine?

LOL you still didnt say if the information I presented in the last post was figuring correctly or not??

Byndhlpng

[ghurd]

"I am not totally sold on the VAWT and if anyone prefers something else I am all ears "

Everybody prefers the HAWT to make power, or you would see a lot of working VAWTs instead of HAWTs.

VAWTs pass the time in a fun way.  Beats Hanna Montana reruns.

The averages need to be in hours per year.  Or month, for every month.

How many hours at 2MPH, 4MPH, 6MPH...

IE #1:  My average windspeed is 20MPH. (it's not)

If half the hours are 0 and the other half are 40, That is a LOT of power.

That is a lot more power than 20MPH 24/7, 365.

IE #2: My average is 6MPH.

Does that mean there is NO wind power to be had here?  Not quite true.

If the average is 6MPH, but the curve shows 30% of the time is 15MPH, then wind is still good.

IE: #3:  I made $40,000 raking leaves last year.  Should I quit my $40,000/year job to rake leaves?  A chart will show all the money I made raking was in Oct.

(I would take my vactaion in Oct to rake leaves!)

Somewhere might have a chart with a bell curve kind of hump (good luck).  Aim for the slightly lower wind part of the hump and hope for the best.

G-

[finnsawyer]

I don't know if the 20% is accurate for your site.  What is obvious is that you should rely on solar power for the summer and wind power for the winter.  As Ghurd makes clear those winter average wind speeds should work nicely for you.  I would have a similar situation here except that I would have to protect the solar panels from the 250 inches of snow we get.  Even if you try to set up a test system for one shed, the single entry power requirement could trip you up if the system doesn't have the proper capacity.  Well, you would also need an auxiliary power generator, maybe tractor mounted.  This whole thing is not going to be cheap.  It's up to you what you willing to spend.  Maybe try some solar panels first.

[electronbaby]

A good place to start is to find out how much power is in your available wind speeds.

Power in the area swept by the wind turbine rotor:

P = 0.5 x rho x A x V3

where:

P = power in watts (746 watts = 1 hp) (1,000 watts = 1 kilowatt)

rho = air density (about 1.225 kg/m3 at sea level, less higher up)

A = rotor swept area, exposed to the wind (m2)

V = wind speed in meters/sec (20 mph = 9 m/s) (mph/2.24 = m/s)

Find out how much swept area the specified turbine has and convert it to meters^2.

Its not very hard to do.

This will give you a starting point and make it a little easier to grasp whats actually possible.

conventional HAWT's are more efficient at converting mechanical force to electrical energy.

Whatever you do, put it on a tall tower. :-)

[finnsawyer]

After my last comment it occurred to me that he might not be aware that in going from a summer average wind speed of say 7.5 mph to a winter average of 15 mph that he would have available from the wind at least 8 times as much power on average.  He should be aware of it now.

[fcfcfc]

Hi Spin..: You mention that there is a "quirk" in alts that make them gen 4 times the power at twice the speed, just happened now to catch this post..??.. Care to take a stab at explaining that..??..  .....Bill

[spinningmagnets]

I must confess, I've never built one. From reading, I got the impression that doubling the RPM's would produce much more than double the Watts.

If the wind on my site was a fairly steady 10 MPH at 30 ft high, and a steady 20 MPH at 60 ft high, would two identical wind-gens in the 10 MPH winds make about the same Watts as one wind-gen in 20 MPH winds?

[fcfcfc]

Hi: There is a difference in the "power" available in the wind at different speeds (V^3)vs what happens to the voltage output of a gen when you double the speed. The relationship between the magnetic field and the velocity of the conductor through it is linear, V x B. So doubling the speed will double the voltage. So if you double the RPM's on a gen you should get double the voltage. The power AVAILABLE in the wind at different speeds is a different story.....

Thanks for the reply.... It looks like we have a sunny day today!!! My solar is running!!