Author Topic: Test Results 8/12/09  (Read 1323 times)

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behoof

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Test Results 8/12/09
« on: August 13, 2009, 01:12:54 AM »
Hi all,


I already had a thread running about this here:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/8/3/185818/5872


Anyway I tested my alternator today and these are the results I got.


Due to the lathe I had to use I was unable to get any heavier load readings because the belt on the lathe would slip so I noted where that took place.


I hope that these reading will help to give a better picture of what Flux and ULR and some others needed to offer a better opinion of what is going on and what I need to do to get this jenny running? I really do appreciate the input and help I receive.


When doing these tests I let it run at the given RPM for quite a while and checked and rechecked the RPM and Volt and Amp readings. The current readings were taken using a 12 Volt battery that started these tests at 11.5 Volts (it's a good battery just been sitting around) when done the batt was at 12.5V.


Jenny Test Results


August 12, 2009


1Y

RPM        Open DCV    Amps



  1.         11.2V        3 A
  2.         35 V        3 A
  3.         36 V        5.5A
  4.         109 V        Belt Slipped





2Y

RPM        Open DCV    Amps


  1.         12 V        0 A
  2.         18 V        2 A
  3.         22 V        5 A
  4.         54 V        5A Belt Slipped





1 Delta

RPM        Open DCV    Amps


  1.         15 V        1 A
  2.         20 V        3 A
  3.         28 V        6 A
  4.         62 V        Belt Slipped





2 Delta

RPM        Open DCV    Amps


  1.         7 V        0 A
  2.         10 V        0 A
  3.         11 V        1 A
  4.         30 V        10 A Belt Slipped


Thanks,

behoof
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 01:12:54 AM by (unknown) »
They're in the wire!!

Flux

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2009, 01:34:58 AM »
It looks as though 2y or 1 delta are near enough for cut in speed for 12ft.


The winding seems to have a lot of resistance so I think the 1 delta may be your best choice.


Its a pity your belt slipped at the point where things started to get interesting.


You will undoubtedly get best big wind power from 2 delta but it won't be very good in lower winds.


Try it and see how it works out. It really looks to be a better match for a 10ft faster prop with tsr7 with 2 delta connection but if you get most of your power in light winds then the larger prop will capture more power.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 01:34:58 AM by Flux »

SparWeb

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2009, 12:29:41 PM »
Hi Skip,

I'm back from vacation so I finally get to see how your project is coming along.

I'm not sure when you switched from 24v to 12v - my experience with motor conversions is that performance will improve with higher battery clamping voltage.


I notice that 2-D has a little glitch in the open-circuit voltage at 165 RPM.  Did you notice that?  Looking at 1-D you have 28v, you would expect to get 28v/2=14v, but you actually measure 11v.  And yet, some current flows into the 12v battery.  Something going on there (was that the first test you ran, when the battery's standing voltage was its lowest?).  Anyway, seeing the belt slip is an indication that the input power required is greater than the lathe's ability to deliver, no matter what connection scheme you choose.


Since you get about 5-6 amps at 165 RPM in either 1-Y, 2-Y or 1-D, then just going by cut-in speed you're looking for 100-120 RPM or so.  That makes me vote for 2-Y.  If you go back to 24v, you can use 1-Y.  This sounds like your original configuration (from the previous thread) and that wasn't working so well, was it?  Kind of circular and not getting a satisfactory solution yet.


I used an 8' prop with my 3HP conversion successfully, so I wonder how 12' got chosen.

When the prop is too large for the generator, it will turn at a higher TSR (lower angle of attack) than it was intended.  You could end up with high RPM even in moderate wind.


Do you have a multimeter that is sensitive enough and reliable enough to measure the phase resistance?  Sometimes it's better to just connect it to a 12v battery and measure the current - through Ohm's law you get an accurate resistance.  It would be instructive to find out if the coils are similar to mine: approx 5 ohm line-to-line resistance in 1-Y, or 1.2 ohm in 2-Y.


As a diagnostic test you could try measuring across all coils and look for any that differ.  Also check for shorts by looking for closed circuits across coils that aren't connected to each other.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 12:29:41 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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behoof

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2009, 01:10:51 PM »
HI Steven,


Hope you had a super vacation !!


I just did a voltage drop across a load test on all the coils according to RossW's method and arrived at these figures.


Coil 1/4  3.12A @ 4.40V = 1.41425


Coil 2/5  3.12A @ 4.37V = 1.40064


Coil 3/6  3.12A @ 4.38V = 1.40384


Coil 7/10 3.12A @ 4.37V = 1.40064


Coil 8/11 3.12A @ 4.39V = 1.40705


Coil 9/12 3.12A @ 4.37V = 1.40064


The method I used was:


Take a car headlight, something like 50-60 watts wire from the battery to one side of the coil under test, then the other side of the coil to the AMP meter, then to the lamp, and back to the battery. the lamp will light and you can measure the current.


Then take your second meter on its low volts DC range, and measure the voltage across the coil.


the important thing here is to measure from the COPPER OF THE COIL ITSELF, NOT THE CLIPS WHERE YOU RUN THE AMPS


so that's what I did to arrive at these numbers


I used the 20 volt scale on my DMM because when using lower it just gave me a (1) everytime.


Any thoughts on these numbers and how they apply guys?


As always, thanks in advance for looking and a reply!!


Skip aka behoof

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 01:10:51 PM by behoof »
They're in the wire!!

ghurd

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2009, 01:12:49 PM »
The 1-Y has glitches in Vopen too.

I can't make head or tails of it, but...


To me it looks like 1-Y, on a 24V system, with blades designed to cut in at 90RPM, is pretty good?


Maybe it needs blades of the same TRS, with a bit less diameter?


Very interested... Not much help.

G-

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 01:12:49 PM by ghurd »
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SparWeb

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2009, 01:33:54 PM »
Great test and thoroughly done. Thanks!

Each phase segment came out almost exactly the same, so that eliminates one potential problem.  You could go looking for other things like shorts into the laminations, but that's not likely.  You didn't mention if the original motor had all 12 wires identified and carried out, or if you did that yourself.  Mis-identifying wires on a phase backwards would cause a weak phase, but I doubt your alternator has any problems.


So a 1-Y star connection would measure about 5.6 ohms, exactly the same as the one I converted 2 years ago and ran with the 8' prop.  In 2-Y it will be 1.4 Ohms line-to-line.  Cut-in for 24v in 1-Y is about 90 rpm, or in 2-Y would be 180 RPM.  Again, a lot like mine was, maybe a bit slower.


If my experience applies, you can expect about 500 watts, in 24v + 2-Y connection, when it's turning about 500 RPM.  With my 8' prop, the wind had to be over 20 mph to accomplish that.  Common where I live, in the winter.  For a motor conversion with maybe 33% electrical efficiency at that current, the required input power is around 1800 watts.


The prop you've made has about 2x the swept area as the one I used.  It won't match the alternator, no matter what you do.  I was skeptical about using a 12' prop on a converted 3HP motor when I saw your first postings about it and I guess this shows what happens when you try.


The math on the prop goes something like this:

Diameter = 12'

Swept area = 113 square feet

density of air = 0.002378 slugs/ft-cubed (at sea level)

Wind speed = 25 mph

velocity is cubed, so (25*1.47)^3 = 49633 cubic feet per cubic second

A conversion factor of 1.355 is needed to go from feet+seconds+pounds to Watts.


0.002378 / 2 * 49633 * 113 * 1.355 = 9036 W


In these conditions, the wind will have 9000 watts kinetic power passing the 12' prop.  Assuming Cp=20% you capture 1800 Watts at the prop, which matches the peak power of the alternator.


In contrast, an 8' prop would have 4000 watts of kinetic energy from the wind. But here though, you need Cp=45% to get 1800 Watts into the prop to match the alternator.


If the small prop isn't good enough to make a Cp=45%, then it will require faster wind to provide the 1800 watts cranking power.  That was my situation, and as a result, mine could run unfurled if I wanted it to, and I tweaked the furling up and down until I got it just right.


If the large prop is well made (looks like yours), then it is capable of delivering 1800 Watts in much lower wind speed.  Any faster wind and it will have a humungous energy.  Though it isn't efficient, you will have great low-wind performance.  The larger prop is always wayyy off its design point - it will be turning much too fast.  But what happens when the wind blows stronger?  You'd better have a bullet proof furling system.  It may be difficult to "tune" the furling so that it protects well enough in strong winds >20mph, yet still can reach the 500W you want.


I get winds nearly 50 mph several times every winter.  The 8' windmill could be electrically shorted, but be far from stopped in that condition.  Turning several hundred RPM, even though it was furled out of the wind, too.  Electric shorting will not hold your 12 foot prop, I bet.


Well, this morphed from Ohm's law to furling.  It's all one system and everything is interrelated.  It will work together, but you'll have to be careful.  You might want to monitor RPM.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 01:33:54 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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behoof

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2009, 09:43:00 PM »
Steven,


Looking back at my original thread on this, my original question would have been:


It's clamped at battery voltage, 24 volt system, but only 3 or 4 amps output with surges to 7 or 8A.
So I'm wondering what might be a good course of action to increase output, if I can.


You asked if this 3ph came with the 12 wires identified and carried out, the answer is no. I followed Zubbly's lead on that using his Diary here:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/8/13/191519/161

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/8/13/214144/026

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/8/14/11359/0629


and even sent him pictures of the process I went thru and got the OK from the Zubbly man. So I'm confident that it is correct and according to my test results I'm pretty sure there are no grounds or shorts in the coils.


Steven, Thanks for the breakdown on the prop specs and so on regarding my 12 footer, good to have.


Well, as much as I really hate the idea it looks like back to the blade drawing board. Looks like I'm gonna be putting together another set of blades real quickly before I put it back up.


Thinking I may just box up the 12 footer and put together an axial flux this Winter, always wanted to make one and seeing as I already have a really great set of blades, why not?


Anyway, you're thinking 8' is adequate for this alternator? If I recall correctly and I think I'm gonna go see if I saved Zubbly's email regarding this. He had said 10' to 11.5' would work nicely with this, and being me I opted for 12' as the closest even number. Of course, we can't go to the SMALLER number, right? Not that finding that old email with change a thing when the results I get are what they are!


But back to my question, do you think that 8' would be the appropriate diameter? I know you've pretty much answered this already based on your experience with yours but I think I'm asking more directly what blade to build?


Flux had mentioned 10' with TSR 7 and using 2 Delta.


So, I'm a bit confused (or just unsure of how the math would work) on how to decide now just what diameter might be most effective given the preceding test results on this. And chow to consider what cut in speed with which blade/TSR/diameter to use to realize the most effective combination? Math is definitely not my strong suit.


Thanks everyone for your input, I really appreciate it. Learning a lot with this.


Skip

« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 09:43:00 PM by behoof »
They're in the wire!!

behoof

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2009, 09:46:35 PM »
ghurd,


I really don't know why those numbers showed up in my test results. I was really extremely careful when running these tests and did each one multiple times with different meters to be sure of readings.


The only know flaw was with the lathe belt slipping (like Flux said, "just when it was getting interesting") and there was nothing I could do about that.


So, it looks like I'm back to building blades again. I think the blade gods must like me or something.


Thanks for the reply,

Skip

« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 09:46:35 PM by behoof »
They're in the wire!!

ruddycrazy

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 02:03:34 AM »
Hello Skip,

           With my 2hp motor conversion I also have 12' blades on it and I found the cutin for 24 volts was around 90 rpm. The best i've seen with the blades really spinning was 12 amps. Today I actually got to see the tail 3'4er's furled and as usual by the time I got to the shed to look at the amp gauge the wind had died down. In the near future I'm going to make a set of 10' blades and see if I get any increased performance.


Cheers Bryan

« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 02:03:34 AM by ruddycrazy »

SparWeb

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 11:37:35 AM »
Hi Skip!


Wow, those links take me back to the beginning!  


You must be right on the knife-edge where it becomes hard to make a choice.  Either you stick with what you have or you dive into something different.  That's a hard one and I don't want to encourage you either way, because ultimately it's your time.  If I say something stupid then I'd be making you waste it.


I absolutely love carving wood, so speaking for myself, I'd be very happy making another set of blades.  I'd use the same chord at the root so that they can fit the same hub, and just "see what happens".  


Eight feet diameter may not in fact be big enough!  Don't get me wrong - in my last post I was trying to make a comparison, not a recommendation!  But by comparing two points, you might see yourself falling between them and being okay.  The point I was trying to leave at the end was that an over-sized prop can be a wicked thing to harness when the storms pick up.


My approach is also to let the math guide me - that's because of my background and I'm really comfortable with math.  But I can't improve much on some people's "gut feel" and you've probably got from Flux a recommendation that I couldn't improve upon.  I just checked the numbers on his TSR=7, and I agree, for the following reason:

Your motor conversion will have limited output above 600 RPM, like mine.  No point going faster.

You want the system to furl in winds about 30 mph.

Assume a prop diameter of 10'.


TSR = (radius)*(RPM)/(wind) = 7.1   (bang-on the same as what Flux gave you)


It is still impossible to predict that the 10' diameter will collect just enough, not too much, power to actually run at 600 RPM when the wind blows 30 mph, but this much is enough to have it optimized for that point.  


Choosing 2-Delta works from one point of view - with voltage clamped by the battery we need as much current as possible to collect power, so using the lowest possible stator resistance produced the maximum current.  The penalty is delaying the cut-in speed, and with a 10' prop, and a 24v battery, you might find the cut-in too high for your taste.  I would try 1-Delta or 2-Y first, personally.


Oh it's not easy is it!


All this pie-in-the-sky talk is one thing, but you have the luxury of experimentation, so trying things to see what happens could be the best way.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 11:37:35 AM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

behoof

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Re: Test Results 8/12/09
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 12:59:28 PM »
Bryan,


Sorry for not replying to  your post sooner, been pretty busy with the farm and all.


Anyway, thanks for your input and please keep me informed on how it's going and what results you get.


Thanks,

Skip

« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 12:59:28 PM by behoof »
They're in the wire!!