440 AMP CONTROLLER / 10,000 WATT

[Blutoy]

Can anyone tell me about this controller. Need for simple system.

http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/batteryregulator.html

[bob g]

i might get slapped for this, but anybody that claims a relay or solenoid is going to last for millions of cycles or decades is sadly dillusional or downright misrepresenting his product or doesn't have a clue,, or possibly some or part of all three. in my opinion of course.

i don't care if it does have silver contacts, relay/solenoids handling that kind of current will not even come close to a million cycles, quite frankly depending on various issues relating to climate, mounting, etc,, the relay might do well to make a few thousand cycles before it fails.

thats just reality,

no i am not a big fan of hydrogen appliance, their marketing claims, or their products.

ymmv

bob g

[TomW]

*Cough

**Cough*

They are the kind of retailer that you can not believe. What I would call a Lying Bastard if the PC Police would let me.

If he told me water was wet and the sky was blue, I would not believe it.

That guy has single handedly done more to discredit RE than anyone on the planet.

His claims on that particular device are ludicrous.

Buyer Beware, Bud.

And you can take that to the bank!

Just my opinion.

If it was a Pet Store they would be selling Badgers claiming they make fine house pets.

I suggest you run, not walk as far away from that guy as possible.

Tom

[oztules]

"i don't care if it does have silver contacts, relay/solenoids handling that kind of current will not even come close to a million cycles, quite frankly depending on various issues relating to climate, mounting, etc,, the relay might do well to make a few thousand cycles before it fails."

Makes them fork lifts, floor scrubbers, electric people movers, starter motor relays and a host of other things they are used in redundant I guess.

I have seen them do 25 years driving dead switched loads of over 200A/36v and 48v for a few hundred cycles per day for day in day out duty in floor scrubbers and forklifts.

I've also seen a lot fail near new.... but mostly they last unbelievably well under horrendous conditions.

I also use then to short my mill out when the electric car is charged.... which uses them for forwards and reverse and power on.... and they came out of an old windsor ride on floor scrubber... circa 1995... and it used to clean Melbourne airport 7 days a week.

This style of industrial relay are mostly pretty good. A lot of them are switched at zero current now days, but in the good ole days... they splat start 4kw dc 48v motors all day every day... for decades until solid state switching (speed control) turned up. Before that, even speed control used 3-4 relays and resistors. The brush/roller broom/scrubber head motors were all splat start under full load.

Starter motors are under the same duress, and before they began putting the start solenoids integral to the motors, they lived on the firewall... that type of relay in the photo.... they did pretty good... I never replaced one, but I know those who have.

In short. I don't share your same disdain.

If the hysteresis is set short so it chatters irresponsibly , it's a different story... and if you get a resonant frequency going.... well the solenoids are so powerful, they will hammer the contacts to death eventually. I don't recall seeing silver in these devices....just big lumps of copper.

If your going to pulse them rapidly then use something else. If you give em 5 min on/off etc, they will last a lot longer than you expect. (fork lift is usually a few seconds to 10's of seconds before cycling. My fork was over 20 years old when I sold it... never did the relays.

When the world moved on, and mosfet switching became the in thing in floor equipment, if you were called out for a dead motor... it was always the mosfets gone... never the big relays they still used for forwards/rev and on (and for when the fets blew in full on state... don't want to drive through the shop windows). If it was a H bridge design without relays.... you knew the thing wouldn't make a year.

.........oztules

[bob g]

i know there are applications where they will last a very long time, but not many

apps where you can expect them to switch 440 amps reliably for very long.

especially if asked to do this level at 48volts nominal (near 60volt switching at

440amps is going to push you over 26kwatts)

i replace lots of solenoid/relays that are asked to switch a lot of power day in and day out, and none make 100k cycles let alone 1000k cycles.

i suppose i could look up the manufactures mean time to failure, but i bet it is rated at no where near a million cycles.

so there you have it, one for and one against

lol, maybe there are others that like the idea

who knows maybe it is a good product?

bob g

[ghurd]

It has a 4V hysteresis on a 48V system!

It only monitors One 12V string, and the power for the relay comes from that 12V string.

Then statements like lightning strike proof, uses ZERO power while sensing, 100% electrically efficient, IGBTs burn up in wind storms...?

G-

[bob g]

yes and it has been in testing for 16 years?

oh boy

maybe it is because i am so negative about other products they hype?

i guess they forget that is the reason semiconductor switches were developed,

that is because relays/solenoids don't have very long lifespans and semi's can

have very long lifespans.

yes i liked that too "igbt's burn up in windstorms"

yes and there are those that can tear up a crowbar in the deep end of a swimming pool as well.

built it cheap and it probably will burn out, build it right and a tornado wouldn't burn it out.

bob g

[oztules]

Yes Bob,

Theyre advertising is over the top, but have no doubt, those things can switch 400A in a pinch. I have used them on my D4 caterpillar in desperation in the start system, and they have no problems.... thats 4x T105's into a massive starter motor.

As for lifetime,... it's horses for courses. At high currents all the time, I can only go from experience of over 30 years in the battery traction industry. The industry would not have developed if relays were as bad as you think. Battery powered anythings would not have existed if they could not find a reliable switching system. It was doing just fine before solid state stuff turned up to make them user friendly, battery friendly and ......prone to expensive electronic downtimes.

I have replaced a lot of relays in my day, but I have rebuilt lots and lots of Curtis controllers too. Dammit, even the one in my EV blew up and I had to fix that. It is only 275A@36V... but the relays haven't cried.

I doubt that Curtis would take your comment "built it cheap and it probably will burn out, build it right and a tornado wouldn't burn it out." to mean that they build them shoddy or cheap.... but they blow up with monotonous regularity. The Italian ones I have dealt with are little better (actually worse).

I suspect your lack of faith in the manufacturer has clouded your judgment on this. If the hysteresis is sensible for the relay, this or similar unit would fulfill a useful place in the dead dump and short market.

I have used these to short the mill when it ran away from me.. and it would have had to handle massive current... The inertia of the 4m blade set at over 600rpm. Probably over 250v shorted into .75R with inertia to boot and 60mph wind for energy. It did not flinch at all. (nor would i have expected it to) Silicon in  the same condition would have failed.... as I would not have spent the zillion dollars to control that accidental outcome. But it happens.

I fully expect that this system I have will run without problems for decades to come... as most switching is more modest (<30A@36 and 48v)... and I do know it will/has stand/stood the pressure when it comes/came. The next mill is 108v nominal, and will have the Ghurd controller driving one of these relays. I know it will be set and forget. I won't worry when it storms.. it will survive.

Like I said, if these relays were as feeble as you suggest, the whole electric motive industry would not have developed reliably until solid state switching arrived..... and many owners will attest that those silicon components are less reliable than their dinosaur counter parts. Others have had dream runs with the solid state switching versions, and will say good riddance... no more clicking and clacking.

I don't expect them to live up to the silly hype that hydrogen appliances contend.... what could?? but it should be a very sturdy unit which should last very well with the right hysteresis for this system. I view it as a battery protection system... not a true float system.

I can only tell you what I have seen with these relays in the last 30 years...

I have never seen a distraught customer complain about a blown 25 dollar relay.... but it's not pretty when they are left high and dry waiting for weeks for a 1000 dollar board to come from o/seas to get their floor scrubber going again.... that too is the difference.

...........oztules

[bob g]

my build it right.. build it wrong comment was not directed toward the relay manufacture, but toward the manufacture of the controller itself.

i have no doubt that the relay/solenoid is very good, but i have serious doubts how long it might work in a poorly designed system that might have it chattering, or

cycling many more times per day than it would see in a floor scrubber.

i suspect there is also a duty cycle, sure the coil is rated for continous duty, but

are the contacts rated to switch 440amps perhaps dozens of times per minute?

thats asking alot of any mechanical relay.

and you are right, i am skeptical of hydrogen appliances claims on many of their products,  their pm alternator being one. this is just another product that appears

over the top to me.

maybe i am wrong and they will be the next "outback" or "xantrex" in the industry?

i ain't holdin my breath!

bob g

ps. i might also add, i am not so much worried about the relay as much as i am the control system that triggers it,, as you know a shoddy or faulty control can destroy

even the best relay/solenoid in short order. something goes south with the hysterysis and the relay gets hammered to death.

should also point out, i have nothing against relays/solenoids,, just not sure of these guys ability to build a product that can deliver on its promise.