Author Topic: Wondering about something i saw on display  (Read 1934 times)

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DRAYCO

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Wondering about something i saw on display
« on: July 18, 2004, 09:52:48 PM »
While in Montreal at the end of last month, I was at Abco Batteries, in Chomedy Laval, just north of Montreal, looking around for batteries and my starts to a solar setup


I saw this little fridge, it i saw at the back had a battery, a solar panel wired up, charge controller and a AC to DC converter connected to it.


that was very interesting looking, that basically, either way, your sharing the charging time with grid power and solar, if not mostly getting more solar depending on size of panels connected


I wounder, i didnt see, or think to look, but was that fridge likely a DC powered fridge in the first place, or could someone do the same with a regular sized AC one? or do that to a A/C unit?


I know if the unit used AC power, you could simply get a inverter, but its always better to go straight DC power whenever you can.


so, there you go.

thanks

« Last Edit: July 18, 2004, 09:52:48 PM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: Wondering about something i saw on display
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2004, 04:09:19 AM »


   Probably using peltier elements ,and makeing a large peltier frig is a good idea.

 Freezing is not but cooling works to 40 degrees nicely . They loose heat transfer at some temp I'm not shure what that is though .

« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 04:09:19 AM by (unknown) »

Opera House

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Compresor style are still AC
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2004, 06:22:16 AM »
I have a small Norcold RV refrigerator and the motor is 20V AC.  The center tapped transformer that allows it to run on 110 also serves as the inverter transformer.  I just hooked it up for the first time to two 75 watt solar panels.  These should have produced about +7A, but most of the time produced less than 2A, The fridge draws about 5.5 amp.  Just a lot of cloudy weather.  The old battery was also sulfated and at times would jump to over 15V with only 2A of charge current. Looks like I need about a 200AH battery to have a truely functioning system.  With over 75 feet of #12 wire to the panels, max current in intense sun was less than 5A.  Wind generator hardly ever turned.  Running a fridge is not a trivial endevor in some locaions (upstate NY)!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 06:22:16 AM by (unknown) »

phil b

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Re: Wondering about something i saw on display
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2004, 01:10:09 PM »
"Probably using peltier elements ,and makeing a large peltier frig is a good idea."


Hopefully, if the frig has peltier, it has several. I have a small cooler in my truck that has a peltier in it. It does a poor job of cooling the contents or keeping the temp stable. I add ice if I want it cold. I understand peltiers in coolers can only cool to 40 degF less than ambient air temp.

 On the other hand, some peltiers are used to cool photo multiplier tubes in scientific instruments. They cool very small areas and are well insulated. The temp is regulated to -5 degC and run for several years without any service. After about 5 years, the peltiers do get weak and take up to 2 days to reach temperature.

 The idea is still very interesting. A peltier frig that could actually keep food cold, last for years, and have low power requirements would be ideal for RE applications.

My 2 cents.

Phil

« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 01:10:09 PM by (unknown) »
Phil

picmacmillan

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Re: Wondering about something i saw on display
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2004, 08:08:44 PM »
i was just speaking to someone up around quebec and they say it is better to buy a fridge in quebec because the fridges there can run on all 3, propane, 110 and 12 volt..just my two cents also...pickster
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 08:08:44 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Wondering about something i saw on display
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2004, 09:15:20 PM »
was just speaking to someone up around quebec and they say it is better to buy a fridge in quebec because the fridges there can run on all 3, propane, 110 and 12 volt.


Propane/electric (gas absorbtion) fridges, running on electricity, use much more power than compressor type refrigerators - by about a factor of 5.  This is because they consist of a heat engine followed by a heat pump - all in one set of working fluids.


Running on propane they're pretty efficient.  Heat engine coupled to a heat pump.  Not as great as they COULD be but still moderately OK.


But running on electricity they use a resistance heater to turn the electrc power into heat.  That applies the carnot-cycle multiplier (about a factor of 1/3) plus the distribution losses to the efficiency of the heat engine/heat pump combo.  You burned a BUNCH of fuel at a generator plant to turn maybe a thrid of the energy into electricity (which you COULD have used at high efficiency to turn a compressor) and instead disipated it in a resistor to run ANOTHER heat engine.


Gas absorbtion fridges with an electric option are for situations where your primary power supply is a gas fuel (i.e. propane), but you sometimes can't run them on propane, have unmetered electric power handy, or where the electric price is outweighed by convenience (i.e. while towing a trailer, at trailer parks, when parked at home setting up for a trip.)


= = = =


Peltier cells are also inefficient - because after pumping heat across a gap using electricity (pretty efficiently) they leak most of it back again (because the thermal consuctivity of the semiconductors used is high).  Convenient if you only need a little cooling and/or have  power to burn (like in a car, where a kilowatt electric load steals less than one horsepower from the engine - which is burning more than that at idle just to keep from stalling).


There is a new tech coming that uses electrons across a vacuum (a REALLY  good thermal insulator) rather than electron/hole conduction in a semiconductor, to do peltier-style heat pumping / thermal generation with great efficiency.  But it isn't here yet.


= = = =


Bottom line, though, is that if you're trying to cool your food supply with an ambient electric power system (solar photovoltaic, wind, water), you'll use a factor of several less power with a compressor fridge than with a propane/electric OR a peltier.  Far more than enough to pay the inverter efficiency penalty to drive a regular appliance if you can't find one with a 12 volt compressor motor.


= = = =


Interestingly, I have a small (14" x 15" x 10 1/2") 120/12v compressor chest fridge that my wife got me a few years back.  "Norcold Tech II".  We use it on shopping trips and commutes between the houses (5 hours) to keep the food cold.  Very quiet.  Continuously adjustable from moderately cool through standard refrigerator to sub-zero freezer.  I never felt a need to open it up and see whether the compressor proper is run off an inverter for 12, has a 12 volt motor regulated down from 110, or what.


Norcold makes both gas absorbtion and compressor fridges and freezers (they're the largest maker of trailer fridges).


You can also get 12v refrigeration units - both appliances and components for making custom, oddly-shaped, builtin fridges - at marine supplies.  These are a bit pricier, because they're intended for use on boats and must meet marine standards for reliability while withstanding a corrosive atmosphere.  (Can't have 'em failing and spoiling your provisions or starting a fire when you're a 7 day sail offshort, after all.)

« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 09:15:20 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: Wondering about something i saw on display
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2004, 02:58:27 PM »
PELTIER refrigerators with single cooling unit may obtain 40 degrees F differentially (between external and internal temperatures).


PELTIERS with dual cooling ( three equal power peltier modules) units can obtain up to about 70-75 degrees differentially., though the power is now 3 times as large.


ABSORPTION REFRIGERATORS (like ammonia) may have different power sources like; electricity, gas propane,kerosene, alcohol.

I used to convert the kerosene run refrig with heating elements, gas propane heating or even alcohol to be able to run the refrigerators on the available energy source at the moment to insure a working refrig to keep vaccines and critical items cold as needed.


Carnot refrig are not practical for areas of limited energy sources.


Regards


Nando

« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 02:58:27 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: Wondering about something i saw on display
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2004, 03:37:15 PM »
Nando;


My only experience with absorption cooling is RV refrigerators. They seem to work fairly well and not be too bad on fuel which in my case would be propane. I haven't looked too far into how they work beyond the basic principals. From what I understand they are not at all a do it yourself system as far as the cooling cycle components. I can see where converting them to liquid fuels of differing types would be relatively straight forward since you just need the right size flame to get cooling.


My question, then, is have you found a way to do this from a "direct" solar source of some type or even a dc source such as batteries charged from RE sources? Probably not a good conversion efficiency making heat when electrical power can be so useful in other ways but the more options the better I think. Seems a properly sized power resistor could provide the heat. On mine the "thermostat" seems to just set the flame size but I may be mistaken on that?


Thanks.


TomW

« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 03:37:15 PM by (unknown) »