Author Topic: controls  (Read 2082 times)

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zingaro

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controls
« on: November 02, 2004, 04:09:46 AM »
Ive a few ? to hash here...

Is there such a thing as a combined inverter/charger?

Ive two inverters.. a 150 w (for laptop,shaver,AAA charger)  & a 900w for my coffee pot and microwave.......NOW for instance if im charging the shaver will the 900w draw more current than the 150? IN other words is the output demand inverse to the input from the battery?

BATTERY CHARGERS: With reference from an RV site i visit they recommend a charger that has 45 amp output and are saying $300 to 400

Now Harbor Freight has chargers that have 2/10/& 55 amp but the key word here is the 55 is relative to"Starting" Whats up with that? is it a charging mode or something else? No fancy batteries here, just automotive lead acid but they seem to work well as long as you just use the top 30%

ps.......this is day 2 on this site & have had some really good help/ideas..thanks

z..geo
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 04:09:46 AM by (unknown) »

drdongle

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Re: controls
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2004, 04:57:47 AM »
 UPS is a combination inverter/charger. I know that several companies make combo units, mostly for fixed installations in data centers, medical facilities, etc check with APC.


Carpe Vigor


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« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 04:57:47 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: controls
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2004, 08:12:51 AM »
"Is there such a thing as a combined inverter/charger?"


Yes, I am thinking of the bigger expensive ones like Trace and Xantrex that do about everything.

 And if your on grid power a UPS as mentioned will charge batteries while the grid power is on, then it switches to batteries and the inverter when the power goes off.


"Ive two inverters.. a 150 w (for laptop,shaver,AAA charger)  & a 900w for my coffee pot and microwave.......NOW for instance if im charging the shaver will the 900w draw more current than the 150? IN other words is the output demand inverse to the input from the battery?"


Not really sure what you meant, but basically the inverter suppling the most power for 110 will use the most power from the batteries. In other words if you are using 100watts of the 150 inverter that should use more battery power than the 900watt inverter if it's only suppling 50watts of power to something at the same time. I'm sure you figured that.

Now if you meant which is more effiecient, like is it better to use the 150watt inverter to charge the saver or the 900watt inverter to charge the shaver, that probably depends on the individual inverters effiecency. The Shaver charger will require the same amount of power, but what are the loses inside the inverter to provide that power? Figureing everything else is equal, I guess you would have to look at the ratings for each inverter and see what your losses will be. I am geussing the 900watt is better quality with better ratings than the 150watt one so it might have less internal loses to provide equal power. If so then it might be better to use it for everything if you can, like charge the shaver on it when not making coffee. On the other hand, since it is far larger it may have more componants inside that eat a little power and therefor not be as efiecient with smaller loads and best used for large loads only.


"BATTERY CHARGERS: With reference from an RV site i visit they recommend a charger that has 45 amp output and are saying $300 to 400

Now Harbor Freight has chargers that have 2/10/& 55 amp but the key word here is the 55 is relative to"Starting" Whats up with that? is it a charging mode or something else? "


Hmm, $300 for a 45 amp charger?? They ever hear of Wal-mart?? You can get a decent charger for about $50 and I think that's a 20amp, or a 40amp for around $75 I think.

 And harbourfrieght does have chargers above 2/10amps for steady charging also. I was just at thier retail store Sunday and pretty sure I saw larger ones. As for the engine starting, that is a booster to supply higher amps for starting an engine with a dead or weak battery, not for continous charging. I have a 2/10/20/40 amp charger with 100amp booster.


 You haven't actually said what you are doing though, so I assume you plan to charge from the grid?? If you are using grid power for charging, then why the need for the inverters??? Are you charging at home then going to a remote location like camping, running the house on the inverters and then charging at work? Or are you testing the water and trying to live off the inverters before telling the grid to disconnect?

 That could make some difference in how large a charger you actually want or need. If your charging from the grid at home and using the power at home you have all day I geuss to charge up. If charging at home then going camping on the weekends you have all week to charge up. But if Charging at work and using it at home, then you may only have 8 hours or so to charge up? The number of amps you need in the charger really only matters as far as how long you have for charging batteries and how much you need to charge them. If you draw 40 amps a day and you have all day to charge, then technically a 2 amp charger would do, 2amps X 24 hours 48amps. On the other hand if you only have 4 hours to recharge, then 40amps/ 4 hours 10amp charger.


Having a larger charger putting out more amps in a shorter time doesn't hurt, I was just pointing out you may not need it. It just depends how many amps you draw out of your batteries and how much time you have for putting it back in is what really counts!


"No fancy batteries here, just automotive lead acid but they seem to work well as long as you just use the top 30%"


You are slowly killing them. They will work great for awhile, I have done that in the past when I did not have grid power. I wired my vans and trucks for dual batteries. I used one battery on the inverter for awhile and charged the other when I drove anywhere, then I swaped the used one for the charged one. It worked very well. I had also connected a altenater to a riding mower and charged that way when I did not need to go anywhere but needed to recharge batteries. That was years ago.


 I am grid charging my batteries for now while trying to build some things, then I just testing stuff out on the inverters to see what works and if I have a problem with anything. So far so good, and next weekend I may pull the wiring out for alot of stuff and go inverter only for much of the house, or everything in the house. My 40amp charger in "theory" should provide 960 amps into my batteries durring 24 hours. That's 11.5 kilowatts per day. My average over a 6 month period was 17kw per day. So I have about 2/3 my power requirement from the battery charger. Since the 220vac well pump, aircompressor, and some other high power items will still be on the grid, I should be able to power the house from batteries and inverter, charged by the 40amp charger. I will also have another charger I can use for catch up purposes since I don't truely expect to get 24hr 40amps from one charger! Maybe more like 20-25AMPS

 Not very good at all for effiecency of course, but it will let me find where the week spots are in my system for now. Like if the microwave, coffeepot, frig etc.. all run at once can the inverter handle it? And I can also see how my battery packs hold up, if I have near enough or will need alot more.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 08:12:51 AM by (unknown) »

troy

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Re: controls
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2004, 10:21:42 AM »
If you want your batteries to last for the short term, any charger will do.  If you want your batteries to last the maximum possible lifespan, then you need a sophisticated charger that charges in a three (or four) stage sequence, bulk charge (fast and efficient), finish charge and float.  If you don't have that sophisticated charge managment system, good batteries with a potential ten year life will only last 3 or 4.


No matter what you do, any car battery will die a premature and expensive death if used for deep cycle use.  A car battery only wants to be discharched 2-5% before a complete recharge two minutes later.


You can get the inverter and charger together from Xantrex or outback, or you can get a dedicated bat charger, but yes, they are expensive.


Automotive chargers often have a peak amps rating for starting purposes that is 5x higher than the sustained charge rate.  But that won't do you any good at all in you application.  You need the sustained rate.


Good luck and have fun,


troy

« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 10:21:42 AM by (unknown) »

zingaro

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Re: controls
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2004, 10:31:24 AM »
Thanks for the info: I was asuming on the inverters they were like the 3 speed ceiling fan the slower speed was acomplished buy heating up a resistor to disapate the energy. Slower speed but same current draw. The fan in the 900w is bigger.. but.

I was relating to each invertor charging the razor thinking the 900w would use more battery power but im not sure of the specs.

Im off the grid  and have a 1000 w honda gen. It can charge at 12 amp. I was trying to figure out weather it would be more efficient to go with a 110 v charger that had a higher output 30 or 40 amp than run the generator at its max dc output of 12.

On the lines of the generator if your familiar with them... its one of those sine wave inverters. Im also trying to figure out of you can charge batteries and use the 110 v ac outlet at the same time. It doesnt say in the owners manual. Ive been lucky to spin start alot of power tools before applying power as the start surge would trip or overload it. its super quite and a has great fuel consumption. Thanks again for your time....z
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 10:31:24 AM by (unknown) »

nobicus

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Re: controls
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 12:10:36 AM »
If you pick up the batteries for free does it matter that they are only going to last half the time they might?  In the UK I can pick up 12v car batteries for free or at most $3.  The last two I was given by a local used car dealer, free, were the type that have the inbuilt hydrometer that shows green through a little window when it is fully charged.  Having got them home both batteries charged up through a trickle charger from the grid, with a de-sulphator alongside, fully and it was then that I realised that there was nothing wrong with the batteries only that the hydrometer had stopped showing anything through the little window!!!  

At the moment I am only wanting to create some emergency lighting for the blackouts that have been predicted in the UK this winter. I have 10 tons of logs for the fires and umpteen butane and propane cylinders for cooking. BUT I am looking to create a wind generator starting in the spring - which is why I am greedily viewing this site on a daily basis.  Many, many thanks to all you chaps that spend so much of your own valuable time teaching the ignorant (me for instance!)all about it!!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 12:10:36 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: controls
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2004, 09:33:03 AM »
Oh, your in the UK? I have a bad habbit of just thinking everyone is from the US unless I see it stated elswise. Geuss that's just becuase about 95% of the people I have forum contacts with actually are.


Anyway,

"If you want your batteries to last for the short term, any charger will do.  If you want your batteries to last the maximum possible lifespan, then you need a sophisticated charger that charges in a three (or four) stage sequence, bulk charge (fast and efficient), finish charge and float.  If you don't have that sophisticated charge managment system, good batteries with a potential ten year life will only last 3 or 4."


I think that's kinda what the Vector and other Smart Chargers are. Supposedly monitor the battery and adjust the charging rate by how the battery excepts the charge or something like that. My Vector will start at 40amp on the digital display when I set it for 40amp, but then a fairly dead battery will go to about 42 amps charging for awhile, in a bit it drops to 39amps and you can sort of watch it reduce the amps. Come back in a few minutes and it shows 35 amps, an hour latter maybe 23 amps ect. Also sometimes shuts down to let the battery cool or adjust I geuss. Since it does it often after just a few seconds or minutes after starting a charge I know it not to let the charger itself rest.


Mine was the biggest (heavy duty one) I've seen sold, was about $100 I think when I bought mine, now I think about $80. It's a Vector Smart Charger with a desulfate mode (pulse chager) and 2/10/20/40 amp settings with 100amp boost for engine starting. I have seen smaller cheaper ones going up to only 10 or 20 amps.


I got mine at Wal-mart in the US, but I am sure you could probably get basically the same thing in the UK somewhere too.


As far as that green dot on the batteries they are worthless it seems, I also have batteries I bought new those things don't work on now, batteries are fine though. I never wanted the dot anyway, it was just there when I bought the battery so I was stuck with it :)


If your planning to run a generator to charge your batteries I think I would build one just for that. Hey wait a minute, I have built one :)

 Basically just get a good gas engine from a lawn mower (I used a riding mower of 12hp) and connect some cheap car altenators to it. You can get real fancy or just stick to the basics. Some push mowers use the blade wieght as part of the flywheel sort of, they can be made to work also but you'll need to use a heavy pully on those most likely.


For my basic one, I just took the mower deck off the riding mower, made brackets to fasten the altenator where the mower deck used to be, used the mowers belt (it was the correct size, but not always) I used the GM altenators (often called one wire).

 Simply start the mower as normal, hit a hot wire to the altenator for a second to charge it, and adjust the engine speed to produce the most amps. I did have an amp meter installed for that purpose. Basically with the 12hp engine I just used a fast idle and I think I got around 40-60amps with the altenator I was using. The engine ran for hours on one tank of gasoline, not sure the tank size, I "think" about 1/2 gallon.

 Since I was only charging one battery at a time back then it worked perfect for me, I had no other power except charging while driving with my vans and a 2 battery setup. It should work well for any size battery bank, you'll get constant amps at a constant speed till the bank starts getting full, just like running a car and charging the battery in it of course.

 If you wanted to get fancy with it, you could even install more than one altenator, get a couple 80-100amp ones and charge a couple battery sets at once. The only limit would be the size of your engine. More HP more amps you could get.

 The one I am building now will have several altenators, I engage the ones I want by pulling a lever to tighten the belt for them. So I can charge one to 3 set of batteries at the same time just by engaging the number of altenators I want running.

 Each will have it's own amp meter. More I engage the more fuel I will burn but the more amps I get. 60/120/180 ect since each will produce at least 60amps. Then of course the built in regulator will reduce that according to the batteries state of charge, but when they are low I will have that much available in the same time period.


As far as chargers, any fast charger should work well for you. The fancy ones may be the best for other uses where power is available fulltime. But float and maintain will do you no good if your using a gennie to power the charger and the genie is not running! No power = no float! And if your burning gasoline propane or other costly feuls your best bet is to just get it done fast and shut down the genny.


 I realy would suggest for battery charging you build something like I described with the lawnmower engines if you can do it yourself or have free help that can. If your running a gennie on costly feul, making 110v, running a 40amp charger to make 12v for the batteries you have a great deal of losses and will burn far too much feul in the long run compared to just making 60amps of 12v directly. To a point you may use more fuel for more amps when getting into the larger numbers, but just idling and doing nothing uses alot of feul also. When you look at it that way then adding just a little more feul for alot more amps and a far shorter runtime you actually come out better in the long run. I don't know off hand how hard your gennie would have to work to make the 40amps, if it's barely loaded and your only using half it's available power your basically waisting the other part of the feul. Kinda like Idling a car engine, your charging the battery but wiasting a ton of feul doing it by not using the rest of the hp available in the feul being burned just to keep it running.


Either way to produce 40amps of 12v dc will require the same amount of feul. To produce 110v AC run a charger to convert that to 40amps 12vDC will take MORE feul than just making 40 amps 12vdc directly.


I have somewhat done some testing on the theory of running a large engine with no load and a battery charging load. Having some cars I collect and often running the engines just to keep them working I have used exactly 1 gallon of gas, started an engine and let it run till all gas was used and that was no extra loads. Then I started the engine and connected a low battery bank to the altenator and run on exactly one gallon of gas till it ran out again. With the load applied the engine rpms were lower, you could hear the engine slow down when I connected the load, but the run time was close enough for practical purposes to call it the same. Maybe a minute or 2 less runtime total but being as I got nearly fully charged batteries from it I had used almost no extra feul to do so. That is another way I plan to keep my batteries charged at times. It is not advisable to run a car engine just to charge batteries off the altenator because of the feul used, however I will be having to start my collectables ocasionally and let them run just to keep them working, so I will set a pattern of starting each at a certian time and letting it run on 1 gallon of gas maybe once per month (I will probaly use propane or wood gas actaully) and while the engine is running to keep the seals and gaskets lubed and prevent sticky valves ect.. I will charge batteries at the same time, get a duel use from the feul being burned since I need to run those egines just to keep them working properly anyway. And exhaust heat is useful also with a good heat exchanger :)

« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 09:33:03 AM by (unknown) »

nobicus

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Re: controls
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2004, 10:44:25 AM »
It just so happens that I have an old mower with a Tecumseh (Italian Briggs and Stratton)sitting on it doing nuthin.  Shall get an alternator from my local scrapman.  Can you explain a bit more about "hit the hot wire the alternator to charge it for a second" please.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 10:44:25 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: controls
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2004, 05:06:28 PM »
Now Harbor Freight has chargers that have 2/10/& 55 amp but the key word here is the 55 is relative to"Starting" Whats up with that? is it a charging mode or something else?


Such battery chargers are intended to recharge a badly discharged car battery and get the car going again.  They can be used to charge the battery over a few hours.  Or they can be used for a minute or so to put a little power in it to keep it from sucking everything else out, then switched to a high-current "Starting Assist" mode to provide power to the starter for cranking the engine - then turned off as soon as the engine is running.


This lets you get the car going quickly if you need it immediately.  Once it's running and up to temperature it will quickly put enough power back into the battery, and restart quickly enough if it stalls, that you can be back on the road in minutes.  (Then the car's electrical system will put enough power in the battery over an hour  or so of driving to bring it back into the usable charge range, or fully charge it over several hours.)


Starting assist mode is not intended for charging a car-sized battery.  It may damage it and/or overheat the charger if used for too long.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 05:06:28 PM by (unknown) »

nobicus

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Re: controls
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2004, 11:55:53 PM »
As an aside did you know that if you have problems starting the car because of low battery you can connect a PP3 battery (called that in the UK- 9V small as a matchbox and used in smoke alarms and hand held pipework detectors)across the coil.  This gives enough juice for the spark without it coming from the car battery.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 11:55:53 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: controls
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2004, 07:49:39 AM »
What I was reffering to for the altenator is a standard GM altenator often reffered to as a one wire altenator. Comes in various amps I'm sure but don't know what all.

Has the Diodes/regulator built in. Ground the case to the frame, connect one heavy wire to the battery. Most the time the field needs to be excited with a little juice to start charging and that is done by just touching a postitive wire to another connection on the back of the altenater, not sure what it was called, probably field?

 You just do that for a second, could wire a normally off button to the wires and just press it a second after you get the motor running.


Pretty sure it was the only connection there other than battery, if you have more than that you might want other advice on that or latter I will be getting one of mine out again, soon, and I can look then. Been awhile since I last hooked one up.


 I am not sure the normal amps they should put out, normally if I am building something and using them I have upped them to around 100amps with a kit I buy, but that's been awhile too. If normal auto type use I just use em as is and don't care the amps as long as it charges the battery while driving.


These are very popular with car hobbists building hot rods or changing an old 6V car to 12V ect.. because they are about the easiest to setup a new charging system with.

 So if you need any local help with how to do it and have a hotrod gathering or local hotrod club you can probably get help there faster than a parts store selling them!


Don't forget if that mower was a push mower you may need a heavy pully to keep it running right. Easy way to tell would pobably be to take the blade off and start it. If it runs normal your probably ok, if it speeds up and down alot or spits and backfires or other silly stuff then you need the extra wieght of the blade or large heavier pully to act as a flywheel. Most likely you should have no problems with it if it was a riding mower since they have a pully already and should sit and idle fine with out anything running, then just connect the belt to your altenator once you install it.


As I mentioned before, you could use more than one altenator also, up to however much you can power with that engine really and charge several battery banks at once if you wanted or needed too.  I just saw a large mower a friend converted using my idea of the mower deck. His deck and pulleys were bad so as a mower it was junk but he still uses it for pulling a trailer around the yard and such. What he did was take the deck off and install the altenators (3 of them) on that deck where the pullies and spindles used to be to drive the blades. Now when He want to use the riding mower as a tractor to move things he takes the deck off. When he wants to charge batteries and do other power stuff he puts the deck back on. Fast and Easy on his mower. Anyway with the deck on he starts the mower, pulls the lever to engage the blades which are now the altenators instead and presses a button on the dash for a second to excite them to start them charging. Pretty good setup and better than the one I had built, but I only needed a little charging for one battery back then.


Lots of other people have done similar things, I called the deck my idea and back then it was, but lots of people have had the same idea too. That was years ago when I did it and the NET was not even that popular yet many places like here.


Mater of fact I think there is probably a link on this forum somewhere for a homebuilt gennie sort of like this, gas motor mounted to a frame and connected to an altenator. And probably one for a induction motor with running caps across the lines for a 120Vac generator also which is something I never thought of on my own.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 07:49:39 AM by (unknown) »