Author Topic: 110-240 setup transformers (Read 5762 times)

nothing to lose · « **on:** April 05, 2005, 05:00:14 PM »

I asked in my other post about what they may be worth about 120v-240v transformer.

My thoughts on getting them for myself is possibly using one for a stepup transformer to take inverter 110Vac and convert to 240Vac. Should this work, and not fry my 5k inverter?

Reason I kinda almost double posted the same question is I had a couple thoughts on these and more questions.

If I run my inverter 120AC into a transformer and get 240Vac output how will that work out. I mean I have a 5K inverter with 10K surge. Depending on the transformer cababilty of course, could I power my deepwell pump this way at 240vac? Also if the transformer is heavy duty enough, could I run off it into the house box as 220 like a normal grid connection would be and just power everything that way letting the breaker box seperate or combine the legs as normal for 110 or 220?

My 2 main thoughts at this time (provided the transformers are heavy enough) is for portable use like at the house I rent I could shut off all 220 items except the 220 well pump and connect the 220 transformer directly to the lines feeding the box. This is easy to do there, don't have to mess with existing wire, grid is not connected at all currantly. Would this power the well at 220 as needed and also break it down to 110 for the rest of the house. I would think so, but want to be sure. I don't really want to mess with thier wiring at that house if I don't have to, like pulling out the well wires seperate. Would not normally be a problem but I don't like the way it's wired in the first place!! If it were my house I would rewire the whole place!!

At home I would like to run the well off one transformer. Most likely I would just run 110 to the house direct form the inverter and only use the transformer for the well.

If these tranformers will work for this they will be plenty cheap enough at scrap price. Just not sure they will work?

Also any advice on how to figure the amps and losses involved? If I put 40amps in as 110Vac should I get nearly 20 amps out as 220VAC? Would I suffer major losses and only get 15amps out?? I am sure there are losses, but how bad??

Also anything else you think I should know about these things would be nice (other than I could kill myself, I know that part already).

Last thing for now, not sure how these are labeled, only got a quick look at them. What sure I look for as a rating for there capacity, I mean anything other than normal amps etc.. Duty cycles type things or others??

Thanks, I may grab them up latter today or tommorow morning if I am going to get them at all.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #1 on:** April 05, 2005, 11:09:24 AM »

Good grief, already more questions, not be 30 seconds yet.

If I get 2 exactly the same and the amps are a bit low on the output side would I be able to stack them for more amps output? The same source input of course.

kitno455 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 05, 2005, 12:29:29 PM »

i am actually in this boat myself. you have to understand a bit more about the power your utility provides. it is split single phase. you cannot just bump up your existing voltage with a 1:2 transformer and hook that to your house, since that will give you no neutral.

what you need are two different 117V circuits, which are 180 degrees out of phase (phase opposition). they will share a neutral line. (though there is some debate over whether this should be called in-phase, i dont agree with that argument)

you might be pressed to call it two-phase power, which you might be able to make a technical case for, but unfortunately, that term is already used to describe something else (90 degree separation).

so, if the transformer you are looking at says it does split-phase output (has a center tap on the secondary) then it should work. provided of course, that the power drawn by your pump, plus the efficiency losses of the transformer, are not greater than the surge capabilities of your inverter.

oh, and you cant just add more transformers and expect to make more power. the power comes from your inverter.

allan

nanotech · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2005, 12:49:15 PM »

Hooking the 220 up the existing breaker panel won't work.

Household 220V is not a "real" 220V, it's two 110V connections that are 180* out of phase with each other that share a common ground, or "neutral".

Since you'd be inputting a true 220V, there's no way for the 100V to be split off of each phase, because you've only got one phase.

What you could do is disconnect the well pump from the breaker panel and run it off 220V, then split off right before the transformer and run the 110V to everything else.

Ok, Red is the inverter, green is the house, blue is the well pump. Swirly thingy is the transformer.

drysider · « **Reply #4 on:** April 05, 2005, 01:01:48 PM »

Xantrex/Trace makes an auto-transformer for just this purpose. Here is the URL for the Adobe documents:

http://www.xantrex.com/support/docdisplay.asp?prod=42

It takes care of the neutral, and provides 120/240 output. I have one, but decided to add a second inverter and parallel them for my 240 volt loads.

Pat

kitno455 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 05, 2005, 01:12:45 PM »

uhm, a second parallel inverter just gives you more current capacity, not higher voltage. perhaps you ment to say 'in series'.

how do you make sure they are in phase. (otherwise they fight each other)

allan

nothing to lose · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2005, 01:42:03 PM »

Thanks,

Yes I think I did see something on at least one of them possibly about split pahse. It had 3 taps I am pretty sure, maybe 4 taps. There were several I looked at, and one of them said something about 3 phase on it I think. It was a quick look since at that time I was not looking for those and had no interest till after I left

"oh, and you cant just add more transformers and expect to make more power. the power comes from your inverter."

That was probably the only part I knew

What I was meaning though was if the transformers are only good for say 10amps at 220 then stack for 20amps 220, that would be about 40amps 110 and that's below the rated output of my inverter still, but not alot below.

Course that's a heck of alot of 12Vdc amps for the batteries to be pushing to the inverter too, don't think at the moment I have the batteries for it, but those I could add more latter.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2005, 01:49:32 PM »

I was thinking about something like that. Or actaully just run a set of wires to each, let the trans former have its own connection the house it's oown. Then if I want to shut down one I can still have the other running.

At the remote house though I wanted to avoid any wireing if I could since it's not mine. If it would have worked, I would probably have had 2 lines there, one to run only 110 and unplug that one and connect the other when I needed to run the well. Not run the transformer all the time that way. Something I though of after postings.

I could have had a dummy outlet that did nothing to plug the unused line into when not in use.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #8 on:** April 05, 2005, 01:51:57 PM »

I'll look at the link.

I didn't want to buy anything right now though, except scrap stuff dirt cheap

kitno455 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 05, 2005, 02:33:55 PM »

well, if you get a real 117 single to 134 split transformer, then you do it just like the utility does, every other breaker in your panel is on opposite leg of the transformer, and the dual pole stuff, like your wellpump is on both legs, so you certainly can do this.

you would have to make sure that both legs are balanced by moving breakers around in your panel, but that's not too hard. and you would have to avoid over-working the transformer or inverter. what is the KVA ratings on the transformers?

i bet you could do better to find a pair of big 117 to 117 isolation transformers, and wire one of them backwards of the other, and have them share the neutral leg. i think that would work. not sure if you would wire the primaries in series or parallel...

allan

drysider · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2005, 03:18:10 PM »

Yes...series them, of course (I knew that!!). Trace has a data link that allows them to stay in phase, with one inverter running as the master, and the other as the slave. Outback has come up with a device to phase inverters from different manufacturers. There is an article in RE this month about it.

Pat

nothing to lose · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2005, 05:24:54 PM »

Got stuff

" Outback has come up with a device to phase inverters from different manufacturers"

I'll have to check into that myself. When the price get reasonable I might want to buy something like that and a second inverter.

Well I got 2 transformers. Funny I thought there were more earlier today, but I could only find the 2.

This first one says Acme transformer, Lumberton NC.

500VA 50/60hz type no TA-2-81215 shows 110/115/120 input for 3 lines on one side and 4 lines out on the other. Can be connected to the output 2 ways. 4 terminals, connect the 2 on the left and connect the 2 on the right for 220, or connect the 2 middles together and use the outside ones for 440.

The second one, Control circuit transformer Allen-Bradley Cat no 1497-N11 A

Kva .350 220/440 and 240/480 both listed for primary voltage

50/60 hertz secondary voltage 110 or 120.

part no X-211272 Type SN file NO LR 40484

I also got a large stereo something that is heavy and has transformers, and some other odd thing, plus a part roll of heavy copper wire should be god for cables

Will try to post a couple picks, I can never get a decent one!!

jimjjnn · « **Reply #12 on:** April 05, 2005, 06:14:39 PM »

Xantrex has a kit to parallel 2 inverters for 220 volts. It has an interface cable that connects them together to produce proper phasing signals. A little pricey but all xantrex is that way.Maybe someone that has 2 parallel inverters connected could provide you a schematic of the cable connections and you could make your own cable then.

jimjjnn · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2005, 06:22:10 PM »

Don't know what your pump draws on startup but I don't think those 2 transformers have enough rating for it.

One transformer is only about 300 watts and the other is rated 450-500 watts. Unless you have a small pump , these won't work.

What is the KVA on the pump?

nothing to lose · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2005, 06:43:55 PM »

"One transformer is only about 300 watts and the other is rated 450-500 watts. Unless you have a small pump , these won't work.

What is the KVA on the pump?"

Alot more than that I am sure, I think it's a 1hp and for sure 220v but don't know any of the important numbers like amps/watts. This is why I bought a clamp meter so I could check amps for these type things, but of course the meter does not work! Will exchange it next time I am there, but will be awhile. Darned meter showed like 1 or 2 amps when I had alot of stuff running on one 120vac circuit (about 10amps load), and testing a battery 12VDC it showed 11Vdc when the rest of my meters showed over 12V

Hopfully I can use the transformers then for something else.

I also got this thingy

120Vac input, 0-140V output, 15amps, Kva 2.1, ~ph 1 type 1260.

I don't know what I will do with a Variac, btu I am sure I can use it for something someday so I got it

I hope it works!

Would this be good to adjust the speed of various power tools? I do not see DC listed on the label so I am gaussing it just varies the AC voltage and if I want DC I'll have to use diodes or rectifiers, is that correct?

Thanks

Joseph Turrisi · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2005, 07:46:08 PM »

According to my acme transformer catalog your transformer #TA-2-81215 is an Industrial contronl transformer. It has an input side rated at 240 X 480, 230 X 460, 220 X 440 primary volts with secondary volts being 120/115/110 with an output rating of 4.17 amps. This is nowhere near enough to start a well pump. Also be very careful if you hook this transformer up backwards as you will have very high voltages ie 440,460,480 which will KILL you. My advise to you is leave this one alone unless you have experence with such voltages. Joseph Turrisi

jimjjnn · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2005, 10:27:33 PM »

Variacs I have used were great for raising and lowering AC voltages that were out of line such as during brownouts.We did have a few times when we had to lower volts but more often had to raise it. You could use it to bring voltage up or down by a certain amount and then put diodes on the output and use it as a speed control for a motor. It would have to be either a DC or universal motor.

jimjjnn · « **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2005, 10:30:28 PM »

Forgot. Better to use a hi-power bridge rectifier. Easier to connect than just diodes. Diodes will work tho if all that you have. Heatsink the bridge with a good sized heatsink

nothing to lose · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2005, 11:12:31 PM »

You mean like a 250V 25 or 35 amp bridge rectifier?

Perhaps this would make a good battery charger? Connect all my batteries for 48V and charge off this at around 55V or so with a bridge rectifier? If so this one item is worth more to me than what I paid for it all, I hope it works!

This has no cover or dial, off hand is full counter clockwise rotation lowest Volts on these normally? Just wondering before I get a shocking surprise when I test it

I will make each if this works.

ghurd · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2005, 12:06:45 AM »

Watch out for powered open transformers.

Just my shocking experience 20 some years ago....

nothing to lose · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2005, 06:03:44 AM »

Yep I'll be putting covers over anything I am using too.

alcul8r · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2005, 09:10:59 AM »

NTL,

Why don't you just use half the bridge, making a half-wave battery charger? Are you charging them from grid?

Rex

finnsawyer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 06, 2005, 09:39:02 AM »

Be aware that this thing is not a true transformer. The input and output are not electrically isolated. You could pass dangerous voltage straight through to the output if you connect it wrong. I have one and always use an isolation transformer on the output (1:1). One doesn't like to blow test equipment either. Basically, one side of the input is connected directly to one side of the output. Well, it does show the connections on the face plate. Just be careful.

nothing to lose · « **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2005, 03:23:53 AM »

"half-wave battery charger"

I am doing alot of things at various times and such. Alot of grid charging yes, along with other stuff.

Whats that half-wave battery charger? Is that the same as useing caps to control the amps passing to a rectifier to convert to DC to the battery, or somethng different, maybe better?

I been thinking about building the cap, rectifier charger for awhile now, just have not done it yet. Thinking about 35amps and a couple of them. I don't like the idea on that though if I forget to watch it I could eventually run 120vdc into a full charged battery unless it fries first. I guess it's a tossup rather I ever get around to building a couple of those or not. Planning too, but not in a big hurry and find other things instead needing done, maybe I am just scared of that idea a bit ??

nothing to lose · « **Reply #24 on:** April 07, 2005, 03:27:23 AM »

Thanks for the heads up on that, I never played with a variac before. I am going to study up a bit about them before using it, so all info is welcome.

alcul8r · « **Reply #25 on:** April 07, 2005, 03:25:35 PM »

NTL,

Nope, to really do it right you need a charge controller. But, to do it cheap you can hook one of your transformers backwards to get ~55V, full wave rectify it, limit the current with a big heating element or really big light bulb in series with your batteries.

Optionally you could do what I suggested first time. Either use a big diode or half a bridge rectifier so you only get half the AC cycle. It gives you about ~70V peak, but tapers off real fast past 50. You could current limit this, again with a heating element in series, so that you don't

Blow breakers
Charge faster than you want to.

I often hook something like this up just for a quick charge, but if you are not familiar with it better not.

If you are charging at 48 volts make sure your batteries have a similar state of charge bfore hooking them in series. Also need to use same size batteries.

Rex

nothing to lose · « **Reply #26 on:** April 07, 2005, 09:31:06 PM »

"I often hook something like this up just for a quick charge, but if you are not familiar with it better not. "

For the present time I think I better take your advice and better not. Sounds like something I should look into since I do need fast charge sometimes from the grid. It would be nice. But I have enough things going at once I get too confused at times on what I am doing already.

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Author Topic: 110-240 setup transformers (Read 5762 times)