Author Topic: How to measure wind turbine output?  (Read 8665 times)

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zap1

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How to measure wind turbine output?
« on: September 27, 2005, 10:10:30 PM »
Hi all,


What's the standard for measuring the power curve of a wind turbine?

I asked this question few weeks ago and most ppl suggest measuring the current (I) going into a 12V battery and the battery voltage (Vbatt). The power output would be P = I * Vbatt. How accurate is this method?

Shouldn't the power output or power into a battery be (Vgenerator - Vbatt) * I ?


Another method is to use different values of resistor as load to plot the curve. If I use 3 different resistors, I'll have 3 Power VS Wind speed power curve. But which one should I use as the turbine's power curve?


I read some wind turbine reports from NREL (http://www.nrel.gov/wind/pdfs/34305.pdf) and they used a power transducer to measure the power output. How does it work? Can I just use a wattmeter to measure the power output?


IEC 61400-12 Power Performance is the standard but I couldn't find more information about it.


I'm confused!!

Thx,

Zap1

« Last Edit: September 27, 2005, 10:10:30 PM by (unknown) »

pwr

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2005, 04:18:32 PM »
Power in Watts is the product of Voltage times Current, usually stated at P = E * I, where I is the historical symbol for current, measured in Amperes.


Current flows in series, so that can be measured anywhere between the wind generator and the battery.  If you want to know the power produced by the wind generator then meausre voltage at the generator.  If you want to know power delivered to the battery, measure voltage there.


A power meter is measuring both voltage and current simultaneously and multiplying them  to display power directly.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2005, 04:18:32 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2005, 07:23:31 PM »
You'll probably be using the mill as a battery charger / inverter load driver.  So it will be driving a charging current into a battery and/or having part of that current stolen by the inverter - at the battery voltage.


Further, the current you want is the AVERAGE current, because in this type of application that's what matters:  Average current multiplied by time tells you how much material is moved between the plates and the solution in the battery, and thus how much charge you added to it.


That means you DON'T want a wattmeter, even if you could find one.  A wattmeter does a continuous multiplication of instantaneous voltage by instantaneous current and averages THAT.  RMS-reading meters perform a similar operation by taking the square Root of the Mean (average) of the Square of the voltage or current, which is an approximation that assumens a resistive load.  This is convenient for looking at how much power is delivered to a RESISTIVE load - which is not what you have.  In a charging application, if your voltage is momentarily raised by a high current portion of the cycle working against the battery's internal resistance, the extra energy is wasted heating the battery - no extra molecules are converted.  (In a resistive load, a boost in voltage means a {square-law} boost in power delivered to the loa.)


You're really after the charging current times your battery bank's operating voltage.  You're  expressing it as watts to make it convenient for comparing to other things - like a similar mill on a different voltage battery bank, or for calculating how much power you have for running your house after correcting for battery and inverter efficiencies.


Similarly, for figuring how much power you'll get you really don't care about the power wasted heating the wiring from the genny to the battery, or in the diodes, or heating the genny's own coils.  You just care about the power delivered to the battery and inverter.


So when you're measuring "genny watts" you want to measure the current using an average-reading ammeter (which means an analog meter movement unless you're sure you have a really GOOD digital meter), with the genny hooked to a mostly-charged battery via the normal diodes - then multiply that by the battery voltage, and measure power at a number of shaft speeds or wind speeds.


That's assuming you're going to use a simple connection.  If you're going to use a delta-wye switch you'll want to do one set of measurements in delta, another in wye.


If you're going to use a peak-power-point voltage-converting regulator it's a whole 'nother can of worms.


A thing to remember is that the battery's load on the generator makes the generator put a load on the blades, limiting their speed.  This is good:  The force on the blades is proportional to the current in the windings, so it means you're actually getting some power from the blades.  B-)  And the load helps to limit and regulate the speed of the mill:  The generated voltage - induced in the coils, not the voltage you see at the coil terminals - is proportional to the shaft speed.  If the coils, transmission lines, and guts of the battery were all superconductors and the diodes' voltage/current function were an ideal right angle rather than an offset exponential, the mill would spin freely up to cutin speed and then hold that speed, fighting harder against stronger winds up to any wind speed.  What actually happens is that it speeds up somewhat with higher winds:  The generated voltage equals the sum of the battery voltage and all these current-dependent voltage drops.  So as the current goes up the mill speeds up somewhat from the cutin speed.


You need to keep that in mind when testing your genny:

 - Load it the way it will really be loaded:  Battery, diodes, and only enough extra resistance to model the wire to the tower.  (Include the resistance of your ammeter in that - or use some of your model wiring as a "shunt" resistance:  measuring current by measuring the voltage drop with a voltmeter.)

 - When interpreting the power vs. shaft speed curve, bear in mind that the mill will turn freely up to cutin, then fight (and slow) further shaft speedups as the output current increases.


Making sense now?

« Last Edit: September 27, 2005, 07:23:31 PM by (unknown) »

zap1

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2005, 07:33:59 PM »



Consider this circuit.

Vgen is Generator Voltage

Vbatt is Battery Voltage

Rg is Generator internal resistance

Rb is Battery internal resistance

I is current in the circuit


I = (Vgen - Vbatt) / (Rg + Rb)


Pb (power to the battery) = I^2 * Rb


Isn't this correct?


Zap1

« Last Edit: September 27, 2005, 07:33:59 PM by (unknown) »

pwr

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2005, 12:14:49 AM »
Forget about rg and rb.  You can't measure them directly and you don't care in the end what they are.  You can measure Amps and Volts, and to get power, multiply them and you'll have Watts.  Don't make it more difficult than it is.


Measurements using RMS instruments will be more accurate than average measuring equipment.  In days begone, average measuring devices were much less expensive than RMS instruments, and under the theory that any information is better than none, they had their place.  RMS meters are still more expensive, but worth the price if you want accurate measurements.


Most wattmeters will give you a choice of instaneous Watts, or average Watts.  With instantaneous Watts, and some way of capturing the readings you could profile the amount of cogging in the generator, but that is probably more than you want to know.

However, the wind isn't constant, so measuring Volts and Amps with the same meter switched between the two scales with lead changes, etc, your chances of measuring

true power is not very good.  Unless you're chasing the last 0.01% of performance you probably don't care.


Know what counts and keep it simple.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2005, 12:14:49 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2005, 12:46:41 AM »
Correct but meaningless. This gives the power dissipated in the battery internal resistance. You are interested (or most of us are) in the power converted chemically to stored power not the bit that makes it hot.


Probably the confusion arises because batteries don't store electricity and don't behave like normal loads or even like capacitors.


If you want to make a meal of the easy bit, try throwing in wind speed measurement to add a bit of fun to your power curve.


Flux

« Last Edit: September 28, 2005, 12:46:41 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2005, 09:29:02 AM »
No.  According to your schematic the power into the battery is I^2xRb + IxVbatt.  In reality the power into the battery is IxVbatt.  The power into any device (or black box) is the product of the current into it times its voltage.  The voltage drop across the battery's internal resistance is part of Vbatt.  There is no way to measure it directly.  Power is an instantaneous quantity measured or computed at every instance of time.  To get the average power if the current and voltage vary with time one should plot the power versus time for one cycle and find the average by using graphical techniques.  Measuring the average current and the average voltage separately can yield erroneous results.  In the case of charging a battery it may work alright as the battery acts like a huge capacitor which means its voltage change may be insignificant.  It's considerations like these why I always recommend use of an oscilloscope if you really want to know what's going on.


As far as measuring power using resistors (and a scope), I think I recommended plotting the power versus resistance curve for each wind speed of interest.  Each curve should reach a maximum value at some value of resistance and then fall off.  A plot of these maximum values versus wind speed (or rpm, if you prefer) gives the true power curve of the wind mill.  You also have available the maximum power versus resistance or load, so you could, in principle tailor your load to wind speed.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2005, 09:29:02 AM by (unknown) »

richhagen

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2005, 12:35:46 PM »
>Shouldn't the power output or power into a battery be (Vgenerator - Vbatt) * I ?


No, that would be the power dissipated as heat in the conductors to the battery.  Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: September 28, 2005, 12:35:46 PM by (unknown) »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: How to measure wind turbine output?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2005, 02:16:13 PM »
You forgot the line resistance and the diode voltage drop.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2005, 02:16:13 PM by (unknown) »