Author Topic: Building PWM dump load controller  (Read 33392 times)

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joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2011, 03:30:35 PM »
Quote
STP120NF10

Thats a nasty tranny, but look at the input capacitance! 3.5 X that of an IRFZ44N!

Quote
STB80NF10

Thats even worse! 5500 pF? Ouch!
I'd say the key there would be slow (frequency) and hard! Really slow. Really hard!
Treehouse/zvizdic - Stay away from the IRFx10 series... they are junk (for these purposes) compared to IRFZ44 series.
Using one is begging for them to pop. 3A continuous, 8A pulse? No way, not in any dump controller I'm building. That's not even mentioning the Rds! :(
Don't forget, the currents you're looking at here are the pulsed currents, derated a touch when the pulses are longer than spec (typically the case).
The continuous current rating isn't of real use here, that only applies to applications where you are using them as a DC switch (controlling the main supply power to something, etc).
It may seem like those astronomical pulse ratings are way up there, but thanks to switching losses, that number derates quickly.
The rule of thumb - the faster (and harder) you can switch it, the less power the tranny will dissipate. Fast = slew rate, not frequency. The opposite applies for increasing frequency. It's all a tradeoff.
The problem comes with the heavier MOSFETs, in that the input capacitance makes switching them quickly progressively more difficult. A gate can draw several amps for a fraction of a second when being properly driven to saturation. This is due to the effective capacitor that the gate forms within the transistor, and the only workaround is to feed the gate more current to reduce the switching time.

Steve



I'm afraid you are completely mistaken, you didn't divide the input capacitance by the rds(on)
5 of the old ones when you could use 1.5 of the new generation fets is how you do the math.
paralleling mosfets to make them more reliable is called adding a snubber (in the form of more parasitic switch capacitance, and more channel area to take the avalanche damage.) just because one of them blew up, doesn't mean 6 won't, when you are nowhere near thermal related failures.


Input capacitance isn't a problem.
5.5nF will increase in voltage at the rate of .18 volts per ns with one amp of current.
a 10 ohm gate resistor would be about right in this case, and it would turn on in 20-30 nanoseconds.
the limit is how fast you can turn on the transistor driver, the internal delay time of 10-30ns, rise time of ~50-100 and the source inductance of the fet and drive circuit, not the gate charge.
Also, the newer fets have a lower internal gate resistance than the old ones, so they don't heat up as much when you're switching them at 300Khz

here's a real life example. STW20NK50 fet, 10 ohm 1/4th watt discrete gate resistor, 30 cent complementary npn pnp gate driver. 80 ns rise/fall time with 4 of those fets used as an hbridge, with 5 amps flowing through the fets and 300 volts on the bus. total gate charge is 85nC.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 04:23:17 PM by joestue »
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joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2011, 04:28:02 PM »
I think I am going to go with  5 x STP60NF06L, and drive them with a mcp1407 @ 10v
overkill, imo. total gate charge is like 35nC. 47ohm resistors for each fet is fine, two discrete npn pnp transistors should be fine below a few khz.
Quote
What do you think about the MBR1060G for the flyback diodes it's rated for 60v, 10A <400ms.  I was reading on a motor controller fourm you should have at least half the max current rating for the flyback diodes ie. 50a should have 25a worth of diodes. However I'm not going to be using it for a motor only heating elements and resistors, but still want lots of safety margin. So I was thinking of using two of them.

diodes don't like to share current equally, so paralleling them is only going to cut down on the inductance if you lay them out correctly, and this is a good thing, but you should not need to do that.
most of the time the only reason diodes are derated is for thermal reasons and getting that half million hour MTBF.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 04:52:32 PM by joestue »
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joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2011, 04:33:13 PM »
Keep in mind: If you have any total length at all (more than a couple of feet of conductor) between your load and the switches (don't forget to include leads running to the batteries!), even if the load is non-inductive, then a flyback diode is good peace of mind.

Even if you had 3 inches of wire between the fet and low inductance sufacemount film resistors you could still blow the fet up if you have 3 feet of wire between the fet and the battery.

a flyback diode and low inductance capacitor between the source of the fet and the positive rail is Required, not optional.
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Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 05:55:51 PM »
Quote
I'm afraid you are completely mistaken

No, not at all. My only point was that it takes 3.5x the current to drive those transistors to saturation at the same speed than it does for an IRFZ44N. I left gate charge out of it intentionally.

Quote
Even if you had 3 inches of wire between the fet and low inductance sufacemount film resistors you could still blow the fet up if you have 3 feet of wire between the fet and the battery.

a flyback diode and low inductance capacitor between the source of the fet and the positive rail is Required, not optional.

When currents are high enough. The MOSFET intrinsically has a 'flyback' diode, and IS capable of absorbing SOME kick on it's own. Besides, you basically agreed with me - I said 'a couple of feet' - more than that and I would recommend having something to bypass the FETs.

The higher the currents, the more kickback from the inductance, and the more important snubbing becomes.

Quote
paralleling mosfets to make them more reliable is called adding a snubber (in the form of more parasitic switch capacitance, and more channel area to take the avalanche damage.) just because one of them blew up, doesn't mean 6 won't, when you are nowhere near thermal related failures.

One doesn't parallel MOSFETs to make them more reliable, they are paralleled to increase capacity.

Diversion (ie snubber network or a diode) is the only way to effectively protect a MOSFET.

Steve
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zvizdic

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 08:42:28 PM »
The current  I am going to switch is 15A max.
If I was to buy new ons it would be IXFK240N15T2 or similar
I have those Mosfet cheap and that is a reason to use them.
If I did not mentioned  my understanding of electronics is limited so take to consideration .
   So instead of pocking each other can someone give me practical advice,like

10-60 ohms on gate, value of a capacitor if needed or a schematics .

Appreciate al help!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 09:45:57 PM by zvizdic »

joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 09:21:59 PM »
Quote
I'm afraid you are completely mistaken
No, not at all. My only point was that it takes 3.5x the current to drive those transistors to saturation at the same speed than it does for an IRFZ44N. I left gate charge out of it intentionally.

but you only need one fifth as many.... that's the whole point.

Quote
Quote
Even if you had 3 inches of wire between the fet and low inductance sufacemount film resistors you could still blow the fet up if you have 3 feet of wire between the fet and the battery.
a flyback diode and low inductance capacitor between the source of the fet and the positive rail is Required, not optional.

When currents are high enough. The MOSFET intrinsically has a 'flyback' diode, and IS capable of absorbing SOME kick on it's own. Besides, you basically agreed with me - I said 'a couple of feet' - more than that and I would recommend having something to bypass the FETs.
The higher the currents, the more kickback from the inductance, and the more important snubbing becomes.

Quote
paralleling mosfets to make them more reliable is called adding a snubber (in the form of more parasitic switch capacitance, and more channel area to take the avalanche damage.) just because one of them blew up, doesn't mean 6 won't, when you are nowhere near thermal related failures.
One doesn't parallel MOSFETs to make them more reliable, they are paralleled to increase capacity.
Diversion (ie snubber network or a diode) is the only way to effectively protect a MOSFET.
Steve


Well just for S#!!s and giggles i wired up a circuit. my sig gen is driving a P80NF12 at about a 1/16th duty cycle with a +15/-15v waveform, through a 7.5 ohm resistor. the resistor doesn't do anything, my sig gen is partly broken..anyhow, the fet takes an entire 10 microseconds to get from +15 to -15 volts, or 2.5uS to get to the gate threshold, and 5 to cross through zero.

i have a 0-80v power supply buffered with a couple film caps. the ground is hooked up to the source of the fet with a short wire. the positive runs through an inductor of 3uH inductance, its resistance is about 7 milliohms.

the drain is wired to an 18inch length of twisted pair, shorted at the end. its resistance is around 120 milliohms, inductance is a few hundred picohenries.
an unknown schotkee diode is connected to a short length of twisted pair, which is connected across the resistor, both connected to the inductor.

i have about 1.6v powering the circuit, turn off spike is over 60 volts at around 2.5MHZ. the fet is cold, the twisted pair is about 10C over ambient.
its running at 1 khz. if i turn up the volts to 2-2.5 the fet gets hot.

10v/div lower trace, 5v/div upper trace. 2uS/div.
what you see is the turn off wave form, there is a second spike and resonance about 10 us after that one, i'll change the photo as soon as i can get the scope to trigger off something stable.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 09:25:00 PM by joestue »
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Treehouse

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2011, 09:34:09 PM »
well It looks like one of the  IXFK240N15T2 will handle 15amps . If you look at the Rds on for this fet it is 5.2mOhms so 15A x 15A x .0052 = 1.17Watts in heat. Mount it on your heat sink, well within limits. Put a 15A fuse in line with it for safety. From what I have seen the Ghurd controller should run one of these just fine. I'm sure he will chime in if not.


joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2011, 09:36:45 PM »
The current  I am going to switch is 15A max.
If I was to buy new ons it would be IXFK240N15T2 or similar
I have those Mosfet cheap and that is a reason to use them.
If I did not mentioned  my understanding of electronics is limited so take to consideration .
   So instead of pocking each other can someone give me practical advice,like

10-60 ohms on gate value of a capacitor if needed or a schematics .

Appreciate al help!

do you have an oscope?

i'll build a circuit, test it to failure and upload a schematic or what not tomorrow with recommended values for you. i'd do it tonight but i've been up for the last 30 hours, and i have to go to work in 2. fun times. only problem is i think im out of discrete pnp transistors.
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zvizdic

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 10:07:58 PM »
do you have an oscope?

No

ghurd

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2011, 12:57:54 AM »
PWM.   Not MPPT switcher.

Looks to me like this is being viewed from different ends of the spectrum.
200Hz?  IMHO, faster than required for home-brew.
300,000Hz?  Marine and aircraft communication frequencies are needed to accurately dump some amps from a battery?
2,500,000Hz?  Designated frequency for space research?

"Hard Fast Switching" of fets is nice, but it seems like you guys are going overboard for a PWM dump load controller.
Speed causes problems.

Here is where I am looking at it from...  Why do hard fast switching?  So the time spent in linear operation is less, and then the fet makes less heat?

Slow it down to 20Hz and it will spend less time linear.  Keep the I^2*R low.  Avoid parallel fets, and instead opt for individual loads.  Fets do not balance perfectly anyway, so spend an extra $5 on more fets.  Shut the fet off a bit slower so the L has a bit of time to naturally dissipate and the Schottky can keep up.  It works for me, and I do some seriously stupid things to fets without issues.

Treehouse,
What is the dump load?
Motors are terrible, which is why the motor control guys use huge flyback diodes.  And why motors for dump loads void decent controller warranties.
Besides, a PWM dump load controller in normal operation would burn up a motor before it did any quantity of work.

Zvizdic,
If your 48V ghurd circuit is running super-fast, increase the resistance between the pot and ZD1 (add a 1K resistor).
For the Gate resistor on each parallel fet I use 56 ohm resistors.  Scientifically chosen?  No, I picked 56 ohms because I have a full spool left over from another project, and I didn't have any problems when using 56 ohms.

15A in two parallel IRF640 is too many amps.
Even if they carried the current equally, 7.5A x 7.5A x 0.18 = 10W.
10W is too much for a TO-220.  Even if the heat sink is large enough to handle 10W, I feel the fet package is not able to get the heat from inside the fet, out to the heat sink.
I try to keep TO-220s below 1W.  A small heat sink is enough for 1.5W or so.  I try to run everything cooler than most people.

And I do not trust the tiny legs with much more than 10A.  With 15A and IXFK240N15T2, I would parallel two just because of the tiny fet legs.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Treehouse

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2011, 07:28:07 AM »
It's not for Motors, Just heating elements & resistors. When I started  looking for pwm dumpload controller information on the net, there wasn't a lot. Do a google search for pwm motor controllers and there's loads of detailed information. I figure if the final driver stage works with the abuse they put them through it should be bullet proof for me or anyone else that may use it. But again thats why I have been asking so many questions trying to figure all this stuff out, I don't want to blindly copy stuff off the net. I like to know what i'm doing first (or at least pretend lol  :P)




joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2011, 08:16:41 AM »
PWM.   Not MPPT switcher.

Looks to me like this is being viewed from different ends of the spectrum.
200Hz?  IMHO, faster than required for home-brew.
300,000Hz?  Marine and aircraft communication frequencies are needed to accurately dump some amps from a battery?
2,500,000Hz?  Designated frequency for space research?

"Hard Fast Switching" of fets is nice, but it seems like you guys are going overboard for a PWM dump load controller.
Speed causes problems.

there is no hard fast switching, it took ~10 microseconds to turn off. that 2.5Mhz ringing you see is the fet exploding when i turn the power up to more than 5 watts.
repetition rate was 1Khz so i could take a photo of it. it would not have mattered if it was 100hz, the fet was only on for around 100 microseconds.

it doesn't matter if your dumpload is an induction motor or a 20kw furnace element, the electrical stress at turn off is the same.
the difference is how much thermal heat gets dumped in the diode.
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Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2011, 11:38:00 AM »
I think we're all on the same page, but just looking at things from different angles.

I don't think anyone disagrees that frequency is one of the enemies here in terms of heat in the MOSFET. Ssss. So far, from what I can tell, this is not being argued. Everybody appears to agree that the switching frequency needs to be kept low. Less than a few hundred Hz.

The problem here is slew rate (time it takes for the FET to go from cutoff to saturation), whether that be intentional by slower drive, or by limitations of the circuitry driving it. The effect is the same. Slower transition, and more heat dissipated in the MOSFET. Ssss.

The slower transition is purely detrimental in terms of heat in the MOSFET during turn-on. There is no appreciable voltage spiking there, since there is no energy stored inductively in anything. The only ringing during turn-on consists of a small amount of overshoot (if even that). So, there's no reason NOT to turn the transistor on in any other manner than as quickly as possible for each cycle, but plenty of reason that it SHOULD be turned on very quickly. This translates to harder, ie more gate current, ie lower value gate resistor.

Turning OFF is a whole different thing. Nobody with any experience at all will argue against the fact that there will be ringing at the drain from even just parasitic inductance. The thing of it is, does it contain enough ENERGY to damage the MOSFET. Ssss. ?

Any paranoia (real or imaginary) on the subject of protecting MOSFETs from parasitic inductive kick can be dealt with in one of four ways here -

    1 - Use a flyback diode to bypass the MOSFET and protect it by routing any energy back to the battery where it won't do ANY damage.

    2 - Turn the MOSFET off a little bit slower, spreading the inductive energy release over a longer period of time, all while keeping the on time transition as short as possible. The drawback to this method is that the MOSFET will dissipate a little more heat than it ideally needs to. Not a big deal if the design is well within each transistor's safe area specs for dissipation. This is easily implemented if using a totem pole driver circuit, and can probably be done rather simply with several other methods as well. The totem pole only requires the addition (or change) of the low side ballast, to a higher value so that the gate discharges slower.

    3 - A combination of 1 and 2, above. Consider medication too; this is parasitic inductance...

    4 - Make a bet that it won't be a problem, and run it without any additional protection at all. For small current levels, and where the total conduction path is kept relatively short, it doesn't represent a problem to run them this way. Would it pass NASA or Life Support system qualifications? I bet not. Then again, if not even for the 'mission critical' aspect of it, they pay 50x what we do for a 'certification' on components, so it's 'understandable' that they would not want to risk popping them...  ::)

For an inductive load (intentional or incidental, as in wirewound resistors), or where conduction path is longer, use either method 1 or 2 above (or 3, only without the meds), as it is NOT paranoia!

Does that pretty much cover it?

Sorry, it's a little bit of a cynical view, but it's not that big of a deal unless inductance really starts to build.

Steve
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 11:59:20 AM by Madscientist267 »
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joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2011, 06:27:32 AM »
Whether or not there's enough energy to destroy the fet requires the tools to measure the avalanche energy, appropriate derating for repetative avalanche and the acquisition of fets that are rated for repetative avalanche (most aren't, and will fail given enough time).  I suppose that's acceptable...

much easier just to add .1-.5uF* per amp of low inductance capacitors and 10-50uF per amp of electrolytic caps to the circuit and put them all within a few inches of each other on the same circuit board.
*subject to change without notice, i'll post some IRL waveforms in a few hours.
**no snubbers required, though i suppose it might be easier/cheaper to just stick a 130v mov across the switch, and keep the frequency low.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 06:30:49 AM by joestue »
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Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2011, 01:14:32 PM »
Ok I can concede to that.

Roughly estimating where failures occur is always a gamble, so in the interest of not perpetuating an argument purely for argument's sake, I'll agree that if there's doubt, protect the FETs.

I have a tendency to nit pick sometimes... ;D

Steve
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joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2011, 07:50:53 PM »
still here.

found lots of interesting things and took lots of cool photos only to find that i was measuring the resistive voltage drop across the other oscope probe.

honestly this is not very interesting and the results are 100% predictable.
I was not able to blow the fet up (as in i haven't yet, its an irfz46).
the pwm resistor is twisted pair as yesterday, but this time its 0.4 ohms instead of 0.1
the diode is a 20amp 100v Schottky same as before.

as you may have figured out, the fet source is grounded, the flyback diode is connected across the resistor, and the supply side inductance which is simulated by a 3uH inductor is buffered with 4.2 uF of mylar caps.
duty cycle is 1/16, average current is 1.2 amp right now at 16 volts.
because the resistor is non inductive, the frequency does not matter, it happens to be 10khz right now, at 100 khz the current consumed by the device drops about 10-20% as expected due to switching losses.

Here is where a few variables come in. those two diodes in series allow the supply inductor to charge up the 4.2uF caps to approximately triple the supply voltage under load, double it under no load. this is not a resonant voltage doubling but a simple energy in the inductor becomes voltage in the cap, minus losses. as the board is shown below, within one uS the fet turns on, in the next 5 microseconds the capacitors on the board are discharged to zero from 34 volts. (34v/5us *4uF =27 amps peak).
As the supply inductor current immediately increase these capacitors charge up from zero to 10 volts with about 25% overshoot in the next 10uS or so.
Current and voltage is stable until the switch is turned offm at about 20-24 amps and 10 volts.
At turn off the supply side inductor charges the 4.2uF cap from 10  to 34 volts in 6us, and, and drops back to 32 at 8-9uS after turn off as the in5401 diodes recover.
(linear for the first 3.8us: 20v/3.8us*4.2uF=22a)
Because the duty cycle is so low, a common dmm will read this peak voltage accurately enough to trust. (reading 32 volts, peak is 34, duty cycle is 6.3%, close enough)
the 1n5401 diodes dissipate a lot of heat for some reason, or perhaps 1 watt is actually a lot of heat.
(the fet on the other hand, dissipates about half a watt for conduction, and perhaps a watt for switching losses at 10khz with single digit us switching time)



I attempted to use larger electrolytic's to absorb the current and keep the voltage down.. the problem is they tend to explode. (without the supply side diode)
The high distributed esr and inductance of an electrolytic cap ensures that the voltage at the cap doesn't ring, and it is quite easy to hold down, they just get hot.
If you get rid of the diode feeding the circuit shown in the photo, when the current falls to zero and the capacitor charges, it will oscillate with the supply side capacitance until the entirety of that energy is dissipated in heat, it doesn't just disappear, it is rather easy to calculate the energy dissipated. assuming the current in the resistor is discontinuous (which in my case it is provided the switch is off for at least 6uS) then it is simply one half supply side inductance times I peak squared (times frequency to get watts)

with a real heatsink this fet would be good to 3 amps average current at 1/16th duty cycle. I tested it to 2-3 amps average for a few seconds, but within 30 seconds it would probably have melted the solder
With a bank of electrolytics to buffer the voltage, holding it down to an unmeasured voltage but with nearly no overshoot, i pulsed it at 5 amps average and the same 1/16th duty cycle, it survived just fine, this was without the supply side diode.




End result is just you'll save yourself a lot of headache just building a delay line with a string of cmos inverters and resistors and caps, feeding these signals into (n) comparators and feed the control voltage into all (n) comparators through (n) resistors with a bit of hysteresis requiring (2n) resistors.. you can easily get (n) phases with just a handful of parts, each from 0-100% duty cycle.
with careful layout there would be no need for electrolytic caps, and the added expense is more than made up for the fact that there's no non linearity between amp hours dumped and "average" current, or any other weird stuff.

i'm not going to dick around with an MOV across the fet, but if you keep the frequency low enough that the mov don't heat up, that's entirely acceptable.
also, you should be able to predict how hot the fet gets.. if its hotter, you need to look into what's going on.
if switching is slow, on the order of 1KHZ or so, 10uS switching can be done with 50 cents in parts, and you won't notice any extra heat compared to 100ns switching which requires 2$ gate drivers.
if you have 10uH inductance on the supply side (have you measured it?) at 1 khz and 50 amps that's 12 watts... that heat goes somewhere, if you have 200 volt fets and 130v mov's, it goes into the movs

from what little i've looked into the subject, repetitive avalanche power is "typically" 1/2500 max rated thermal dissipation.... if you insist on just want to "Make a bet that it won't be a problem"
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 08:22:04 PM by joestue »
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Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2011, 08:17:26 PM »
Quote
I was not able to blow the fet up (as in i haven't yet, its an irfz46)

You've made my point. Albeit an avalanche rated FET.

I also found that a point of reference here was probably not helping anything - By 'small current levels', I was referring to <10A. 50 is much more than I was willing to bet on. My mistake there.

Either way, I've already said that I wouldn't bet 100% that an FET would survive, laying less than confident conclusions for use with something like a life support system or the like.

That being said, I've had two different [ghurd] dump controllers built and running for some time (several months?) now, one of which has leads running to the battery that are more than 5 feet long (~10ft #14 total). Dumping current is about 8A on that one, 10 on another (3ft #14, 6ft total). No MOVs, no Flybacks, and no popped FETs (and just to be safe, yet).

Elt, use a friggin flyback diode.  ::)

Steve


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joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2011, 08:24:00 PM »
Quote
I was not able to blow the fet up (as in i haven't yet, its an irfz46)

You've made my point. Albeit an avalanche rated FET.
Elt, use a friggin flyback diode.  ::)

my circuit never went into avalanche.
and the flyback diode doesn't dump the power back into the bus., it dumps it back into the resistor.
the discontinuous nature of the power drawn is what causes the problems.

If you want me to substitute the irfz46 with a 120v 80amp fet and run it at 300 amp pulses at 1% duty cycle i assure you, i can pull that off...
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 08:37:02 PM by joestue »
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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2011, 08:57:09 PM »
"If you want me to substitute the irfz46 with a 120v 80amp fet and run it at 300 amp pulses at 1% duty cycle i assure you, i can pull that off..."
The point of this test would be to prove someone with more money than brains Could pull it off, if they wanted to bad enough?

"my circuit never went into avalanche'
Avalanche was the point of the test, was it not?
Avalanche related FAILURE was the point of the test, was it not?
Maybe I am getting ahead of the test results.

"and the flyback diode doesn't dump the power back into the bus., it dumps it back into the resistor".
Yes.  We knew that.

"honestly this is not very interesting and the results are 100% predictable".
I was not able to blow the fet up (as in i haven't yet, its an irfz46).
That confuses me.
Are you saying the fet should have blown up, or it should not blow up?
6A motor on an IRFZ44/6N should blow up, or not blow up?
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joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2011, 09:36:36 PM »
The point is that if you don't have a capacitor across the bus, then all of the energy stored in the supply side inductance ends up in the mosfet.
Had i removed the capacitors and attempted to pwm the resistor at 10 khz it would have failed instantly.

i'm not interested in nor qualified to find safe avalanche limits, and most people don't have the tools to measure the inductance of their system.

example:
10uH at 5 amps is .125 mJ times 1Khz is .125 watts. this is well over the 1/2500 limit.
50 watts for an irfz46 divided by 2500 is .02, divided by .125mJ is 160hz
(2500 is the only generalized number i can find)
this means the fastest you can pwm a single irfz46 at 5 amps with a 10uH inductor is 160hz.
at 7 amps it would be 80Hz
if your resistor is only 1uH, then it would hardly matter if you have a diode or not.

i was partly surprised that an irfz 46 didn't have a problem with 80 amp pulses at 1/16th duty cycle, not sure i should have been though, that's only 10 watts Pd.


I didn't really make it clear in the post above, but if you put a diode in series with your dc supply, then stick a known capacitor across the pwm circuit, drive the resistor at less than 10% duty cycle, you can use a cheap dmm to read the voltage on that capacitor and use that to figure out what the inductance of your battery is.

my opinion that you're playing with fire.

note that instead of a capacitor you can use a zenar at low frequencies.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 09:43:37 PM by joestue »
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BrianSmith

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2011, 11:02:17 PM »
If your determined in trying to PWM switch heavy currents on and off, you should probably considering using a MOSFET of the planar variety as opposed to a trenchfet type part.  The planars are more robust in the linear region due to differences in there construction. If you want to go tougher than that use IGBTs, but they are a bit more expensive and need a little bit more circuitry to drive them.

The other thing is that just because you have lots of FETS in parallel, doesn't mean it will significantly help in switching large currents in PWM mode.  The FETs Vgs turn on voltage is pretty skinny and sharp, but they aren't all at the exact same voltage.  As a result you get different FETS turning on and off individually and not in perfect unison as the gates transition from high to low. If they switch at different times, it means one is going to be switching by itself for some amount of time....

This link may be of some interest to you PWM dump loaders...some basic testing comparing the two FET technologies in test failure applications.

http://powerelectronics.com/power_semiconductors/power_mosfets/power_trench_fets_fragile/

Make love not smoke....  ;D


Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2011, 12:26:17 AM »
Quote
10uH at 5 amps is .125 mJ times 1Khz is .125 watts. this is well over the 1/2500 limit.

Ugh.

The avalanche rating, although rated in joules, is rated for a single pulse.

And confirmed, by this document about avalanche ratings, from section 3.2 - a couple of snippets:

Quote
3.2   Energy during avalanche for single pulse (EAS)

This is the maximum energy that can be dissipated by the device during a single pulse
avalanche operation (at the same circuit conditions described in testing avalanche
ruggedness. From the IAR and starting junction temperature of 25°C, the junction
temperature is brought up to the maximum that is stated in the absolute maximum ratings.

Section 3.3.1 goes on about repetitive pulse, 'between' equation 6 and 7, indicating that the device must more or less simply be able to get rid of the energy as heat in a satisfactory manner:

Quote
For the single event example, when the current is below IAR and the TJ is below 150°C, the
device works in a safe operating mode. When the device is subjected to repetitive avalanche
events, it needs to be checked to see if it maintains the TJ below 150°C.

So, IOW, if the tranny can dissipate the absorbed energy in addition to the heat created by internal I^R losses during switching/on time, safely as heat, there isn't a problem.

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2011, 08:00:59 AM »
Make love not smoke....  ;D
hehehehe

yes, well, specifically most here are using them without a robust supply which is causing avalance failures.
you can pwm fets in parallel just fine.
the instantaneousness heat caused by individual switching time variations is really only a problem if you have more than say 10 in parallel and or your gate drive involves individual drivers with lots of jitter, but yes that can be a problem, but most here are using less than 6-8 in parallel, at only a few times the rating of any individual fet.

Quote
10uH at 5 amps is .125 mJ times 1Khz is .125 watts. this is well over the 1/2500 limit.
Ugh.
The avalanche rating, although rated in joules, is rated for a single pulse.

yes, i've read most every referance i can find.
btw, single pulse is 100mJ, which means you could switch 50 amps if you keep it under 1hz. (for 10uH).
in other words, Ghurd's controller should never blow up a fet, because the hysteresis is rather modest and therefore slow.

and its not entirely energy but peak power as well. for example, a 1000 volt fet with 1mA of avalance will not die.
if you substitute a 200 volt fet of equivalent single pulse avalanche into a 50 volt circuit, you've multiplied by 16 the peak power dissipated. because the fet will avalance at 4 times the voltage.

this is yet one more reason why i will not make any safe avalanche guidelines.

especially when you could just add a 1 watt zenar...

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zvizdic

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2011, 04:39:20 PM »
So if I increase RY 1K to 3.2K it will run slower. Thanks GHurd

5 IRFP150N each 56 ohms on gate.

I got nice heath-sink and I can make a board like Methanolcat but only for mosfit and gate resistors.

Any other parts on a board like capacitors or a zener? I have 16v 5W on hand.

I can build but not understand all you experts are saying so schematics with a values would help.


joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2011, 11:44:48 PM »
how much current are you looking to dump into the resistor, and what is your battery voltage?
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ghurd

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2011, 12:03:06 AM »
48V 10'
IIRC
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zvizdic

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2011, 07:00:01 AM »
15A at 48 V

joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2011, 01:58:25 AM »
it would be nice if you could use a zener, but the impedance of them is far too high.
so you're stuck with just installing a capacitor across the + and - bus.
if you keep the frequency below 1Khz then it won't heat up and explode.
i'd go with at least 100uf. use more than one of them. the 200v, 330 or 470uF caps out of a dead computer power supply should be more than adaquate.
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DanG

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2011, 06:38:28 PM »
A heat sink like you show loves to have the longest fins vertical so the 'smokestack' draft pulls plenty of air through it :)

Treehouse

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2011, 12:46:40 PM »
Well I built my new controller and so far seems to be going good. Pics and stuff are here http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,145444.msg990695.html#msg990695