Author Topic: Building PWM dump load controller  (Read 33391 times)

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elt

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Building PWM dump load controller
« on: July 05, 2007, 05:25:19 PM »
Basically, I've merged Somoa's FET driver with a Tiny45. The little microprocessor combines analog to digital converters, PWM generators and a temperature sensor. Here's the circuit that I have so far -





I've added some LEDs thinking that they'll show an over voltage when the dumper is operating and an under voltage when the batteries might need an external charge. I'm thinking that the button can be used to set the on and off voltages "in the field" and, perhaps when the software is smarter, to start an equalization cycle. Finally, there's a serial port that I might use for something later on.


I have a few questions!


I currently have my eyes on six IRLX44n's. These are 55 volt, 47 amp, rdson .025 ohm logic level FETs; about .60 USD at jameco.com ... I think that the suggestion to use 100 volt FETs made sense but there are so many devices and I have zero experience; I think that I've given up on knowing what's "best."


Will the totem pole driver switch six of these (or some other device) "hard"? I understand that it is somehow related to the input capacitance of the devices which is about 2pF each.


The microprocessor is rated to 5.5 volts and I understand that the extra half volt will help the logic level FETs switch. I see a sub-dollar 5.5v regulator on Digikey but it's only rated to 100ma. I realize that the switching current for the FETs is pretty high but I thought I read that the average current is pretty low. The rest of the circuit will draw about 20ma ; will 80ma be enough to drive the FETs?


Do I need any more stuff? Flux recommended a cap at the FET in my voltage booster but I don't know whether that or anything else is need here?


Here's my layout so far. I've never done anything to handle near this amount of power (50 amps) so I don't know if this is bone-headed or not!




This single layer board is about 3.625 by 2.5 inches; I think it should be an easy home-brew fabrication. There's no connection to the drains on the FETs; I was thinking of bolting an aluminum bar across the heatsinks (which are connected to the drains) and then bolting the connection to the bottom of the dump load on that. Is that crazy?


Nominally, the FETs would be dissipating 2 watts with 50 amps on the dump load at 25C, 2.4watts at 100C ... will I need more heatsink than the alu bar across the drains? (If so, I'll likely need more space between the devices.)


Anything else?


Thank you!

- Ed.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 05:25:19 PM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 01:31:16 PM »


This is intl.rectifier's list of Power mosfets

on the bottom left

http://www.irf.com/product-info/dc-dc/


This page is Intl.Rectifier (High side power mosfets)

sorted by RSD(on)

None are logic level ( well one is but the Drain to source voltage is only 30 V)


https://ec.irf.com/v6/en/US/adirect/ir?cmd=advFrame&pathIndex=0&queryPageKey=1557&adviso
rCmd=continue&startstate=page_Parametric%20Search%20DC-DC&startstate=answer_Parametric%20Sea
rch%20DC-DC_DC-DC%20Primary%20Side%20MOSFETs


""Will the totem pole driver switch six of these (or some other device) "hard"?""


with your totem pole( push pull ) Fet driver , you need to limit the current because your switch will effetively short the 5.5V powersupply

you could  easily use 12V on your totem pole switch (with the appropriate current limiting resistor )

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 01:31:16 PM by (unknown) »
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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2007, 02:25:06 PM »
""Will the totem pole driver switch six of these (or some other device) "hard"?""


with your totem pole( push pull ) Fet driver , you need to limit the current because your switch will effetively short the 5.5V powersupply


No it won't.


It's not a classic "totem pole", with voltage gain and where both transistors may be on simultaneously when switching state.  It's a dual bipolar voltage follower - with current gain and some voltage loss (due to the base-emitter drop).  The two transistors are never on at the same time.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 02:25:06 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2007, 02:27:47 PM »
I believe you should have a separate gate resistor for each power fet.

Maybe 100 ohms on each gate.


What is the dump load going to be?

G-

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 02:27:47 PM by (unknown) »
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elt

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2007, 03:52:24 PM »
I have twelve 6.7 ohm 220 watt resistors in parallel.


(Here's a picture of my dump load and rectifier panels.)




- Ed.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 03:52:24 PM by (unknown) »

boB

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2007, 05:10:38 PM »

>>I believe you should have a separate gate resistor for each power fet.
>>Maybe 100 ohms on each gate.  G.

That's what came to my mind too.  R value kind of depends on the switching
frequency.  What IS your switching frequency ?  The higher the F, the lower
the R, generally.  Separate resistors tend to help FETs NOT to oscillate.

Is the IN/OUT header where you input your battery voltage to the controller ?

Looks like you know what you are doing.  Looks pretty good.  Is that the Eagle
PCB layout program you're using ?

boB

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 05:10:38 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2007, 05:35:36 PM »
ED;


You have problems:


This type of MPPT, I presume, is the Boosting type., therefore connect the Anode of a Fast Diode to the DRAINS and the Cathode to the storage capacitor with a heat sink, it may be dissipating the majority of the power. ( the Diode should be at least 3 times greater current capability than the Drain current.


Each of the FETS should have a 22 Ohms resistor from the Driver to the Gate, otherwise during the switching times the Fets may Oscillate from 100 to 1500 Mhz and destroy themselves.


The Gate drive should switch from 0 volts to 10 Volts to make sure that the Fets are fully saturated, and in this case the Gate Fets driver should be capable of at least 6 amps peak to switch fast, under 100 Nanoseconds (this will reduce the switching time power losses).(TC4420 from microchip would be one). Check polarity.


Therefore supply a 10 volts with at least 100 ma peak current.

This means that the Gate driver should as well be able to switch with low 5 volts levels.


You need to lower the saturation voltage to a minimum.

I would like to know more about the MPPT process you have since several types DO hang Up and stop working under various conditions.


DO CONNECT the drains on the board to avoid BIG headaches later


Nando

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 05:35:36 PM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2007, 05:52:00 PM »
elt,


ULR is correct and willib is wrong about the driver. It's a complementary emitter follower and both transistors will never be on at the same time.


Ghurd is also correct about adding separate resistors from the emitters of the driver to each FET gate in place of the single 22 ohm. I'd suggest 10 ohms each.


Yes, the average current for the driver is fairly low while the peak current will be a few amps. I suspect your 80ma will probably do it. I would put a 1uf cap right at the collector of the 2n4401 however, to supply the peak current.


I do question the wisdom of using a 5.5V supply for the micro if that's the max rating.


The 10k from the FET gate to ground isn't strictly necessary although I know I showed it originally. Won't hurt, but if you use it, there needs to be one at each fet along with the separate gate series resistors.  The idea is to keep the drive path for each FET equal.


I'm not sure how much inductance your load resistors might have, but to be on the safe side, I'd suggest a fast catch diode of a few amp rating across the load in reverse polarity (anode to FET side).


Good luck with it.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 05:52:00 PM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2007, 07:06:39 PM »
lol it wont be the last time o'le buddy

in fact i'm wrong  once a week

sometimes twice ! :)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 07:06:39 PM by (unknown) »
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oztules

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 02:05:43 AM »
Ed,

When I build this type of thing i generally find that you should take your signal circuit earth (gnd) directly to the batt grnd terminal area of your gnd bus.


If you go next to the Q6 Fet as you have, the current to drive the sensitive part of the circuit has to share a path to the gnd terminal along with the high current switched pulses going to the fet bank. The voltage drop along this current path will show up as ripple in the sensing supply. in short, keep your high current and low current paths seperate.


And what Ghurd and Samoa said re-resistors on the gate etc.


For backyard circuit boards, I like to use up a little more realestate on the board. Thicker tracks will give a better margin for error with etching and printing. Also if you are going to tin the tracks to avoid corrosion, it gives more glue to hold the tracks in place.


I also try to keep as reasonable a distance between pads and passing tracks as possible  to minimise chances of tracks being joined by iffy etching/soldering. If you have a very good printing and etching history, these comments may be ignored, but if there's plenty of clearance everywhere, there is less liklyhood of any track problems, and it doesn't cost anymore.


I use a fairly lousy printer for my artwork which forces me to do this kind of thing.(http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5171/transparency.JPG

I try and avoid delicate tracks unless they are going between IC pins, where you can't avoid it.


.........oztules

« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 02:05:43 AM by (unknown) »
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ghurd

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 07:18:46 AM »
Seems we are all on the same page with this one.


Does anyone have any thoughts about those resistors?

Seems like they will have a bit of inductance. And iron in the middle too.

Couldn't the inductance help with the turn on time fet losses (heat)?

Or will the inductance mess with the PWM at high frequencies?


Here is where my thought from the other post come in.

There are 12 resistors and 6 power fets.  Hmmm.

Use 2 resistors for each fet.  


The switching times between each are bound to be a bit different, so the fastest will see more amps.  Separate loads negate any ill effects.  The most current any fet can see will be ~8.6A.


It will also by-pass the headaches Nando mentioned when he said to connect the drains on the board.  I think.


I think I would move the ground wire hole closer to the fets, and between the #3 and #4.

It seems like a lot of amps to be running around the PCB.


Possibly Mr. Flux could jump in about whether or not they have enough inductance to act as a variable resistance.  Or at what frequency that effect would occur.  It is related to something he said long ago, and I could be remembering it wrong.


"will I need more heatsink"

No such thing as too much, too thick, or too big a heatsink.

I should show you the last one I used!  An aluminum security light on a bridge rectifier.  

It doesn't get hot anymore. ;-)

G-

« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 07:18:46 AM by (unknown) »
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elt

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 10:50:22 AM »
I really appreciate the feedback!


I've added almost all the suggestions; here's a new layout...





I've put a FET drain plane on the top layer (shown in red, purple were it overlaps the ground plane.)


The board terminals, by the way, are the "big black holes", two on the top and one on the right side. Those are .2" inches, sized for #10 screws. I think I've eliminated the possibility of high current going trough thin traces. (Battery connects to BATT+ and GND, dump load connects to BATT+ and LOAD.)


The "in, out, ground" block in the schematic is the serial port. I'm not sure what that's for yet, might only be data logging, might be to coordinate with other controller boards. The "DW" port is the programing port for the microprocessor chip; otherwise it has no value to the circuit.


Other comments:


5.5v isn't the absolute DC limit for the microprocessor, that is 6 volts. 5.5v is the top of its normal operating range so it should be okay... my understanding is that the extra half volt will help the logic FETs switch.


I cleaned up the layout a little to move parts farther apart.


I added a snubber diode between batt+ and drains.


I've moved the high side driver next to the output cap of the vreg; hopefully it'll get the peak power it needs from that.


I added a gate resistor per device. Suggestions were from 10 ohms to 100 ohms "depending on switching frequency"... I don't know what the switching frequency is, I haven't asked that yet! I do have questions on frequency and duty cycle settings but I think I've seen some stuff about that on the board already so I thought I've wait until after I've googled a bit.


I'm still a little uncertain about driving the FETs with a higher voltage ... I don't see a down-side electronically but for now I'm thinking that I'll just try simpler setup and see if anything gets hot.


Thanks again!

 - Ed.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 10:50:22 AM by (unknown) »

boB

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2007, 12:43:53 PM »

Ed, unless you are always going to have something plugged into DW, shouldn't you
have a pull-up resistor from /reset to +5.5V ?? And maybe even a small cap
to ground so noise doesn't reset it...

boB
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 12:43:53 PM by (unknown) »

elt

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2007, 01:36:33 PM »
The reset pin has an internal pull-up resistor and, according to the data sheet, a "spike filter" so I think it'll be okay.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 01:36:33 PM by (unknown) »

oztules

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2007, 08:29:03 PM »
Just a suggestion Ed


Have a look at your totem tranny's. If you swap the positions of these with each other, you can redo the tracks so there are no tracks between the pins of t1 as your b+ is passing the current t2 collector posn position (which will become t1)in the right place, and then the new t2 collector can go straight to c2


Poorly explianed, but does that make any sense?

Just a bit less clearance problems.


.........oztules

« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 08:29:03 PM by (unknown) »
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oztules

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2007, 08:37:52 PM »
Sorry Ed, but i just realised why you had t1 on the right... to get C2 as close as posible. However if you do transpose the trannies (t1 and t2, you can space them apart a touch. and move c2 between the two collectors...)


Think I'll crawl back into my hole now...


........oztules

« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 08:37:52 PM by (unknown) »
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elt

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Picture of PWM dump load controller
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2007, 06:13:00 PM »
I took your suggestion on the part swap. I also changed the fixed 5.5v regulator for a lm217 adjustable regulator, mostly because I had one on hand... turns out I had everything but the FETs.


Here's a picture of the etched and assembled board...

 


(I stuffed some other devices in the FET pads just to show them populated.)


This is the first time I've use bolts for terminals on a PC. Those are #10 machine screws for the high current connections... I like it lot!


- Ed.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 06:13:00 PM by (unknown) »

oztules

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Re: Picture of PWM dump load controller
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2007, 07:31:36 PM »
Beautiful looking job Ed. If it works as well as it looks you've got a winner on your hands.


but having trouble seeing the b- track unless it's comong from your 2 pin connector and i hope there is a track behind the t2 case that i cant see for the fet drive. See you swapped the load and gnd studs around.


Nice job.........oztules

« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 07:31:36 PM by (unknown) »
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domwild

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2007, 08:59:25 PM »
Ed,


Great work! The trick is then to work out some sort of an algorithm for the PWM to dump sufficient current to the load. Do you also vary the frequency or just the pulse length?

*

« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 08:59:25 PM by (unknown) »

elt

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2007, 01:31:23 PM »
domwild asked:

Do you also vary the frequency or just the pulse length?

So far just the pulse length. Is there an advantage to changing the frequency too?


oztules wrote:

If it works as well as it looks you've got a winner on your hands.


Wouldn't that have been great... but instead the FET's got hot, exploded and caught fire. I asked about that in another posting and am implementing the things that I can readily implement.


Changes intended to reduce explosions are



  1. caps across the battery to protect against inductance in the battery cables
  2. Schottky diodes across the gate drive to "protect the circuit from avalanching if the Mosfets have a lot a Miller Effect behavior"
  3. heftier diode across the dump load, the littler one in the previous build failed.
  4. better ground routing, particularly to the gate drive.


In addition,


  1. I've changed the gate driver to a package with a T220-5 footprint to simplify the routing (trying to keep it on one layer.) I figure that I can either buy a integrated gate driver or breadboard the the transistor driver with legs having that foot print. (The current footprint is for a mcp1407/tc4420.)
  2. I deleted the 1-wire interface. When I'm ready to network this guy I can use the LED and button connections as a serial port.
  3. Having a spare pin (after deleting the 1-wire interface) I added a hall effect current sensor so I can tell whether the battery is being charged or discharge.


The schematic is too big for in-line viewing so here's a link to it -

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/6527/DumpBoard_5s.gif


I managed the layout mostly on one layer though I do need a jumper to complete the circuit. (I could have made the route without the jumper but the trace would have gone close to a high current connector and didn't want that...


The new layout is about 3" x 4". That fits three boards on a sheet of toner-transfer paper and two boards on a piece of Radio Shack copper-clad... Here's a layout




With all new parts this about a $25 USD board. Honestly, I can see why some folks just buy a couple of C-60's and move on. But I've never built anything that had to handle more than an amp or so I consider the lessons learned "priceless." (Thanks everyone!)


... I am just in the process of building the new board now. I'll start with some lower current tests as suggested and then move up if the FETs retain all their smoke... will write when I have results!


Thanks again, - Ed.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 01:31:23 PM by (unknown) »

DamonHD

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2007, 01:55:39 AM »
Yes, I've been more a milliamp and microamp electronics person in the past, so I'm learning from playing with power MOSFETs and 12V on on low-voltage-disconnect design (still in debug; nothing fried yet).


Really, this is such a fun way to get experience, you are right!


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 01:55:39 AM by (unknown) »
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Treehouse

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2011, 08:40:27 AM »
I know this is an old post but was wondering if you have more info on this. Have you gotten it fully working at your 60A output? I am trying to build one very similar and would like to know if your drawing is something I can follow for good results.

Thanks!!

BrianSmith

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2011, 07:39:27 PM »
I have been thinking about this type of device myself.


Some words of warning...

The higher the battery voltage is, the larger the capacitance of the FET gate.  If you are going to switch these PWM style, slower is better as it will reduce switching losses in the FET.  When the FET is on, typically it can handle the current no problem, same with off.  However when you are turning it on/off or off/on, the FET has to go from basically 0 ohms to 100M.  When its in between in the linear region, it will burn off a lot of power depending on how fast it switches thru the linear region.  Switch it slow, it will fry.

The trick is to switch it thru the linear region as fast as possible and don't switch it any faster in frequency than necessary.  Everytime you switch it on or off you will cause switching losses in the FET which will make it hot.  Using a good FET driver will help make this switch fast and reduce FET heating.

The other thing that will get you is switching high dump currents on and off thru an inductive load.  When the switch turns off it will cause large spikes at the FET that can overvoltage and damage it.  You need to have some beefy diodes to steer that overvoltage spike around the FET and back to the battery and ground.  Some capacitance on the FET output will help, but the FET will have to drive that short circuit everytime it turns on as well as the cap charges which can be problematic if the cap is really big.

Good Luck.

Brian


joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2011, 12:13:14 PM »
Switching losses certainly aren't negligible in many cases but they should be for hard switched pwm into a more or less non inductive resistor.

Here's why:

The flyback diode or catch diode stops conducting long before the switch turns on again.
If this weren't the case, you would see a pronounced non linearity between average current and percent duty cycle above a given XX%, and this XX% would change with the frequency. (essentially, if you try to switch the resistor at say 100 khz, it becomes a really lossy buck regulator instead and returns a fraction of the power back to itself, through the diode)
Additionally you would only see mosfet failures above the critical discontinuous current region, where the catch diode is still dumping current back into the resistor when the fet turns on. (assuming of course that the fet does not die from thermal failure caused by conduction losses being proportional to duty cycle)

All that being said worst case isn't that bad below 100 khz, At 100 khz, the extra 100 ns it takes to turn off the diode would essentially double the switching losses assuming you've already got 100 ns switching, but switching losses are still less than 2,3%, even at 100 khz, assuming hard switching.
If you use a slow diode that takes 400ns to turn off then you might run into problems, because now you're looking at a 4 fold increase in losses.

But in real life its not that easy. Say your 1 ohm resistor has a 2 uH inductance and its on a 48 volt circuit.
current initially rises at 24 amps per microsecond, so for the moment lets assume that it takes 6 uS to turn on, and 6 uS to dump most of the 48 amps back into the resistor. Now we can see that with pwm at 10 KHz, above 94% duty cycle the current never drops to zero. At 1 khz, its more like 99.4%.
(I'm ignoring the resistance here but that doesn't really matter, because these are arbitrarily picked numbers that may individually be accurate but as a whole not very.)

But because there's no current flowing when the fet turns on..  then there's no turn on switching losses! so as long as the fet turns on before the current rises to say 6 amps (would require 250ns turn on, which is rather slow), not only are switching losses less than 250ns/100us, but they are about equal to (250ns/100us) times (6^2/48^2) compared to idealized hard switching.

Here is where we get into causes of failures:

It must be noted that when the switch turns off, the resistor is essentially an ideal 48 amp current source.
if you don't have any capacitance in the system then even 20nH of inductance (an inch of wire) is enough to destroy the mosfet, because the voltage across the inductance of the diode is theoretically infinite.

Figure if the mosfet turns off in 48 ns then the current through the diode must increase from 0 to 48 amps within 48 nanoseconds or the voltage at the fet will be higher than 48 volts; say you *conservatively* rated the fet at 200 volts and now can let the drain voltage rise to 200 volts, which means its ok to let the catch diode take 200 nanoseconds to rise from 0 amps to 48 amps. calculating the inductance needed for a *conservative* .25 amp per nanosecond at 48 volts.. and i find it to be 80 nanohenries, ignoring the capacitance of the switch and pcb, wires etc.*

That's like a total of 4 inches of pcb trace, but nothing out of the ordinary. in fact, you may not even need a snubber if the supply is bypassed with some film capacitors located on the circuit board less than an inch from the diode and fet. Locating the catch diode near the inductor a good distance from the switch may solve this problem but only below critical discontinuous current. What happens to the energy stored in the loop between the fet and the diode when the current becomes continuous at 9X% duty cycle and you have diode recovery current to "absorb"?

Do not forget the inductance of your battery bank! The capacitors on the pwm board must be able to absorb the current stored in the inductance of the battery and leads without an unsafe voltage rise. If you don't have any caps on the board buffering the + and - rail, its a miracle it can survive. (this is one of those cases where a high gate resistance and the miller capacitance enables the mosfet to turn off as slow as it needs to... you can't count on this, it may be turning on and off several times before it actually turned off.)

In short, if you want to be able to get 9X% duty cycle with any resistor then there's no difference in construction requirements between a buck dc-dc converter and a pwm dump load, except for the fact that the diode has near zero heat dissapation, and although you need low inductance caps, you don't need that many of them.

If you limit the duty cycle to 90% you're probably good as far as turn on diode recovery caused failures, but if you have the turn off voltage spike properly accounted for there won't be any diode recovery current caused failures, it will however reduce your turn on switching losses from zero to some non zero figure.

*There's two variables to solve here. a current source into an inductor provides an infinite v/s rise time, the parasitic capacitance of the system is not negligible and takes over quickly
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 12:17:04 PM by joestue »
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Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2011, 04:46:35 PM »
Very nice indeed...

Only one thing I didn't see mentioned (doesn't mean it wasn't, I just didn't see it) -

I'd consider stiffening the source/drain traces with heavy copper, soldered to the board. If you make a square 'ring' to go around the perimeter and go generous with the solder at the MOSFET terminals, that should be sufficient. Maybe another to lead off toward each lug hole, just for extra insurance.

That's a lot of current to pass through any PCB trace, even wide tracks such as you have there. There's no substitute for peace of mind. ;)

Steve
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zvizdic

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2011, 09:52:24 PM »
GHurd or other electronics gurus I need a way to drive 5  IRFP150 MOSFET with a GHurd 48V controller.

GHurd controller works good but i think it will not have enough current to drive 5 MOSFET .

I am thinking to incorporate mosfet driver like TC4422 or similar and a step down converter to supply 6 to 18v to it.

Tried to drive (mosfet) with controller only, worked for a month and burned IRF640 mosfet .

I already made a new heatsink to replace the old inefficient one. I'll include some pictures and I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Thanks in advance

zvizdic

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2011, 10:01:38 PM »
Hit a post to fast.


New heatsink



Burned



I will do proper job on a new one this was rushed and slapped .

joestue

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2011, 03:58:40 AM »
I need a way to drive 5  IRFP150 MOSFET

why use 5 ancient fets when you could use one.
http://www.newark.com/stmicroelectronics/stp80nf10/n-channel-mosfet-100v-80a-to-220/dp/89K1633

there's lots of ways to get around having to use some type of intelegent converter. how fast are you switching it, and how much parasitic power draw do you consider too much?
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Treehouse

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2011, 07:38:58 AM »
I'm still trying to learn about fets, so here goes.  Assuming pwm at slow speeds say 500Hz

  The irf640 should safely be good for 3amps at 1.6Watts of heat.(Rds = .18Ohms)
         IRFP150       -  7amps at 1.7Watts of heat (Rds = .036Ohm)
         STB80NF10  -  11amps at 1.8Watts of heat(Rds = .015Ohm)

Have i figured this out correctly ? are those reasonable power losses for heat?  if so I think I will place an order for some fets.. I'v been second guessing myself. 

ghurd

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2011, 08:09:00 AM »
A few of the 48V ghurd controller guys are running STP120NF10, as far as I know they are not having any problems.
But they bought out the last in-stock parts from the common suppliers (not sure who got them back in stock yet).

Treehouse, 
The math is OK, but I do not see any reason to run a dump load at 500HZ.  165HZ (Xantrex) or 355HZ (Morningstar) is more than plenty.
De-Rate them more if attempting a parallel configuration (which I discourage, and prefer separate loads and heat sinks for each fet).
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Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2011, 12:00:39 PM »
Quote
STP120NF10

Thats a nasty tranny, but look at the input capacitance! 3.5 X that of an IRFZ44N!

Quote
STB80NF10

Thats even worse! 5500 pF? Ouch!

I'd say the key there would be slow (frequency) and hard! Really slow. Really hard!

Treehouse/zvizdic - Stay away from the IRFx10 series... they are junk (for these purposes) compared to IRFZ44 series.

Using one is begging for them to pop. 3A continuous, 8A pulse? No way, not in any dump controller I'm building. That's not even mentioning the Rds! :(

Don't forget, the currents you're looking at here are the pulsed currents, derated a touch when the pulses are longer than spec (typically the case).

The continuous current rating isn't of real use here, that only applies to applications where you are using them as a DC switch (controlling the main supply power to something, etc).

It may seem like those astronomical pulse ratings are way up there, but thanks to switching losses, that number derates quickly.

The rule of thumb - the faster (and harder) you can switch it, the less power the tranny will dissipate. Fast = slew rate, not frequency. The opposite applies for increasing frequency. It's all a tradeoff.

The problem comes with the heavier MOSFETs, in that the input capacitance makes switching them quickly progressively more difficult. A gate can draw several amps for a fraction of a second when being properly driven to saturation. This is due to the effective capacitor that the gate forms within the transistor, and the only workaround is to feed the gate more current to reduce the switching time.

Steve
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 12:10:46 PM by Madscientist267 »
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Treehouse

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2011, 12:31:38 PM »
Thanks for the input, I think I am going to go with  5 x STP60NF06L, and drive them with a mcp1407 @ 10v  . They be limited to about 10amp ea. and a good heatsink for a total of a 50A controler. I will also dial down the Freq. to 200Hz nice compromise between Xantrex and Morningstar.

 What do you think about the MBR1060G for the flyback diodes it's rated for 60v, 10A <400ms.  I was reading on a motor controller fourm you should have at least half the max current rating for the flyback diodes ie. 50a should have 25a worth of diodes. However I'm not going to be using it for a motor only heating elements and resistors, but still want lots of safety margin. So I was thinking of using two of them.

thanks again for all your help with this, I am use to fixing this stuff not building them lol.. hole diff. ball game. 

Madscientist267

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Re: Building PWM dump load controller
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2011, 01:13:31 PM »
Not sure where the "400ms" part comes from... ???

From what I see on the datasheet, they should be fine for what you're doing, if not a little on the overkill side.

When the battery, load and MOSFET are physically/electrically close to one another, and your loads are purely resistive, there is not enough kick back to really be all that concerned with IMO.

Since there technically is some parasitic inductance, if you are paranoid, you can use them. They won't interfere with anything, even if the load isn't kicking back at the MOSFETs.

If your load IS inherently inductive (ie, consists of coils of resistive wire in some form, such as nichrome), then it would definitely be wise to use them.

In addition, if you are using ferrous material to support a load that is inductive (such as in elt's case), this needs to be taken into consideration as well. The inductance here is 'hidden' in the sense that it's not immediately apparent that the iron is enhancing the inductance already present in the resistors. To the naive, the word 'resistor' seems to disregard the connotation of 'inductance', since your goal isn't to have an inductor in the circuit. ;)

I'm not going to tell you to NOT use them, but I wouldn't worry too much about going overboard with them either.

Keep in mind: If you have any total length at all (more than a couple of feet of conductor) between your load and the switches (don't forget to include leads running to the batteries!), even if the load is non-inductive, then a flyback diode is good peace of mind.

Steve
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 01:15:12 PM by Madscientist267 »
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !