Author Topic: Slow FET Switching  (Read 8210 times)

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ghurd

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Slow FET Switching
« on: July 27, 2008, 04:52:29 PM »
Over thinking the plumbing.


Quick run down.

A 2N7000 mosfet operates a 12V 300~400 ohm relay coil.

(Or maybe an IRFZ44N operates a 12V 100 ohm relay coil)


The relay will rarely be active.  Once or twice a week for 1 to 4 hours per activation?  Hopefully never.

I don't think mosfet heating will be a problem.


I started wondering if there would be any advantage to slowing the switching.


My thoughts being slower off switching would be similar to standard transistor operation, like adding a variable resistor to reduce the coil current and potential voltage spike, before the Schottky flyback diode had time to conduct.

Could it possibly reduce the chance of smoking the mosfet due to spikes?


A small cap on the mosfet gate to slow down the switching off of the mosfet?


VERY high value pull up and gate resistors?  Maybe 500K each?


Maybe both?


Maybe I think too much?

G-

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 04:52:29 PM by (unknown) »
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bob g

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2008, 10:59:23 AM »
from everything i have read a highspeed clamping diode is all that is needed, but

on some control boards i have been working to reverse engineer i see they also use

an MOV or some form of varister snubber to catch the overvoltage spikes that might evade the clamp.


fwiw


bob g

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 10:59:23 AM by (unknown) »
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ghurd

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2008, 12:27:32 PM »
Thanks Bob.  So I'm not the only one thinking about it. :)

This may help.

R-pullup = 500K

R-gate = 500K

Cap = 0.1uF

Boy, that came out tiny!

G-



« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 12:27:32 PM by (unknown) »
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tomtmook

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2008, 05:06:59 PM »
Hmmm.


To turn a transistor off slowly it means you're burning up more energy inside the transistor itself.  The fast switching time is one thing that makes FET's so attractive.  


Think about the situation as being similar to a generator coil.  100 ohms at 12V.  That's 1.44 watts.  When you turn the relay off, what's coming back at you will peak at 1.44 watts (minus loss due to coil ohms, etc.) then drop off with the decay of the magnetic field in the coil.  It'll be open circuit until the schottky kicks in.  That's where the spike will be highest.  What you want is a transistor that can handle that.  Or a snubber network.  


My suggestion would be to go with the larger FET.  I've used an IRF520 to switch 12V solenoids without a problem.  Your IRFZ44N looks even better.  


It's got LOW Rds on.  Rds on is the effective resistance of the FET when it's conducting.  The IRFZ44 has 0.0175 ohms when it's on.  With 120mA through the coil the drop across the FET is only 0.0175 x .12 = 2.1 millivolts (anybody on the board work in millivolts?)  The power then dissipated in the FET itself is only a small fraction of a milliwatt!  Sweeet!


Slowing down the FET may help.  I'm not really sure.  I have seen the technique used before, but in that case it actually slowed the mechanical release of a solenoid.  


Good luck with it.


Tom

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 05:06:59 PM by (unknown) »

bob g

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2008, 11:18:03 PM »
just curious, why the need for slow switching?

and what are you driving the mosfet with?


a few months ago i got a copy of this book, which is fantastic

when it comes to this stuff (in my opinion)


http://cgi.ebay.com/Power-Electronics-Principles-and-Applications_W0QQitemZ370065972406QQihZ024QQcat
egoryZ378QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247


this is one on ebay now, however i found mine for under 20bucks if i recall on ebay too.


maybe it might be helpful for you too?


bob g

« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 11:18:03 PM by (unknown) »
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large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
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Flux

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 01:30:50 AM »
For this application I don't see any need to try to get very fast switching, but I am not convinced that deliberately trying to slow it will help. I have had nearly all fet failures from simple inadequate gate drive circuits. Adding extra gate capacitance is probably not going to help.


There are special mosfets available with high reactive load capability designed for solenoid driving, but for a small relay I can't see that you should have any trouble with standard mosfets.


Failure is normally associated with the inductive loop within the switching circuit between mosfet and freewheeling diode not the inductive loop beyond it. In that respect slower switching will let you use a worse layout, but it is nearly always bad layout that kills things in the end.


One of the snags with high impedance gate drive is that the miller effect between drain and gate transfers some of the drain spike to the gate and if it exceeds 20v then the gate insulation fails. Some suggest zeners to clamp the gate to about 15v and with correct layout I believe this works but there is also the school of thought that says that these zeners often cause more trouble that they eliminate unless done extremely carefully to avoid ringing.


Flux

« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 01:30:50 AM by (unknown) »

Opera House

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 09:39:06 AM »
I find a lot of irrational exuberance over FETs.  If switching less than an amp, there is no reason not to use a transistor.  Many people are turning FETs on with far too little gate voltage and I doubt whatever you are turning your FET on with would hardly be considered fast.  FETs are capacitive and the larger the FET, the more capacitance. Turning some on can take several amps if done FAST. Any standard 1A silicon diode is sufficient. A diode actually slows down the turn off of a relay.  
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 09:39:06 AM by (unknown) »

BigBreaker

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2008, 11:47:41 AM »
I aborted a post about using a darlington pair, but will second your suggestions for looking at BJTs.  Not only are they simple and cheap but they are also more durable than other technologies.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 11:47:41 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 06:58:06 PM »
Power is current times voltage.


An ideal switch dissipates no power.  When on the current may be high but the voltage drop is zero.  When off the voltage may be high but the current is zero.


Transistor switches are not ideal, but the can come close.  When on they have a high current and a low voltage drop, when off a small leakage current across a high voltage.  They also don't switch directly from one state to the other but instead go through a period where the (effective) conductivity goes through intermediate values.


When the transistor is at some intermediate conductivity between full-on and full-off, it has a nontrivial current across a nontrivial voltage.  So (unlike the full-on and full-off state) it dissipates a bunch of power.  You'd like to keep out of this intermediate state as much as possible - going through it as rapidly as possible without causing other problems - to avoid frying the transistor.


With a purely resistive load (or a steady-state value, where the inductive and capacitive components of the load don't matter) you can treat the power supply plus the load as a "voltage source with a series resistance" and the "how much power does the transistor dissipate" question as one form of the impedance matching problem:  The transistor will dissipate the most power when it has the same resistance as the load.  If the load dissipates one unit of power when the transistor is a dead short, the load and the transistor will both dissipate 1/4 unit of power when the transistor is at the conductivity state where it dissipates the most.


When considering switching and a non-resistive load you have two additional issues:


As others have pointed out - when turning on the transistor you have an additional issue:  It doesn't turn on over its entire area at once.  Small regions start conducting first, then the conducting regions expand (and more small ones form and expand) until the whole thing is conducting.  When the first regions turn on the total current is still low so the voltage remains high.  But the current in the conducting regions is also high.  So you're dissipating a lot of power in those small areas.  This can cause them to be damaged if you hold this state for too long.  So you want to turn on quickly, to get enough of the transistor conducting to pull down the voltage and reduce the power level in the parts that are conducting before you fry the tiny startup regions.


When turning off a load with an inductive component to its impedance the current can't change instantly.  Instead the rate of change of the current is proportional to the voltage trying to change it.  The result is much like inertia in a moving mass:  It tries to keep moving and the quicker you try to stop it the harder it will push on you.  With an inductor this produces a rise in voltage, called the "inductive kick".  The magnetic field in the inductor represents stored energy, which must go somewhere if the field is to be eliminated.  If you don't do something else about it it will increase the voltage across the transistor as it turns off so that the total energy is dissipated in the transistor.


However additional circuitry (called a "snubber") can be added to dump this power somewhere other than the transistor.  A free-wheeling diode can let the current circulate through the coil until it's dissipated in the coil's resistance.  A resistor in series with this can slow the current more abruptly and dump most of the energy in the resistor (rather than putting a spike of heat into the coil) - but the resistor must not be too large or the inductive kick will be high enough to force current through the transistor as it turns off.  You could also dump the power back into the power supply (though this takes a double-ended power supply or more circuitry).


Presuming you have an adequate snubber circuit you're back to the same situation as a resistive load:  You still want to turn off the current through the transistor quickly, to stay out of the high-dissipation, halfway-on state as much as possible and avoid overheating the transistor.


So turn it on fast and turn it off fast.  Then you can control a lot of power with a low-power-dissipation transistor.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 06:58:06 PM by (unknown) »

s4w2099

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 09:23:45 PM »
Ghurd, I dont see why the complication to do this, but if you are really worried about voltage spikes across the mosfet I suggest you use an RC snubber.




A quick google with that term will bring a bunch of results. RC snubbers are great for low frequency switching.




If I were you I would not try to slow down the mosfet rise/fall time.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 09:23:45 PM by (unknown) »

tecker

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Re: Slow FET Switching
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 12:48:49 PM »
That diode across the coil will be fine . The back emf for a 12v actuator is around 150 volt , 24 jumps to 210 to 240 You can acount for the emf  with a fet rated  300 to 400 volts .The IRFZ44N is capable of a end rush amperage the 2n7000 has really small pulse drain current .
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 12:48:49 PM by (unknown) »