Author Topic: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?  (Read 4531 times)

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Dave B

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100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« on: November 19, 2008, 07:29:10 PM »
 We (Daves) will be running a 20' machine shortly and want to use it primarily for heating water. Obviously we can wind the stator to suit but we also wish to free wheel as in a charging system before our selected cut-in. We figure this can be done by utilizing a small battery bank just as a control bank to sense the dump load voltage then running DC to the load(s).


 Problem being any of the commercial type controllers are rated up to 60 A 24 volt DC max. We will be cranking up to possibly 6 KW and so need a dump load controller to handle maybe 100+ Amp as this will be it's primary job.  Any help from anyone out there with suggestions for a circuit to do this ? I'm sure money can solve most problems but our pockets aren't that deep at this time. Thank you for any suggestions.  Dave B.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 07:29:10 PM by (unknown) »
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fanman

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 02:24:24 PM »
hey dave B

fanman dave here, yah lets make this a challange to see if anyone can come up with a controller for any desrired voltage and at least 100 amps, or maybe even a plc that would handle that sort of thing, i hear there pretty robust if programmed properly, anyone out there deal with these things? ive always thuoght theres gotto be something somewhat simple to build and repair, and user friendly,

  and dave b i seen your picture of that big steel plate, is this your next magnet disk,? lokks to be 3 to 4 feet in dia,? excellent
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:24:24 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 02:26:34 PM »
Use a controller to drive an industrial-grade contactor.  (I.e. big-mother load relay suitable for long periods in the on state and many years of cycling before problems.)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:26:34 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 03:47:24 PM »
Your pockets are not that deep?

My brain is not that deep!

I will think about it.  And already need 4 asprine.


I would not believe it was being done.  Except that part about the Daves.

Why can't you guys build a 4' Ametek and be happy?  LOL


I figure 6KW is not 24V.

I figure the voltage is 'variable' to suit maximum power extraction?  And that part about 6KW at maybe 100+A sounds like 48V nominal.


I am purely guessing the battery bank is something like 12V.  Get something in low wind.  Get a lot more working voltage in more wind.


The 100A+ is not a problem.  Big-Butt IGBT.

The "desired voltage" is not a problem in this case, because a 20' machine can tolerate 25W of waste.


This is ALL totally off the cuff... *  

and there is a good chance I'll change my mind in 2 hours.  Just so you know.


First idea.


A combination of my circuit and Zubby's cap based heating circuit.

When the battery reaches trigger voltage, my circuit turns on an SCR, or back-to-back IGBTs, or something along those lines.


Second...


Several (ie: lots) of my kits.  Each set to turn on another heating element as the voltage increases.  Meaning lots of heating elements, rated at different voltages and watts.


This is (note A).  Would also need a power resistor (heater element?) in series with the battery to limit the max incoming amps at something over the max input voltage, and another kit in a standard configuration to dump more than the max battery input amps.  It should (???) keep the battery from cycling between heat and no heat.  Don't want the battery getting below trigger voltage and have 6,000+W of battery charge current for a millisecond or 2.


Third...  maybe better?


A 3914 based controller?

( http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/5/14/123616/495 with serious tweaking?)


Given.  The voltage increases as more power is available.


Voltage gets higher.  Optoisolators trigger circuit for the (suitable) heating element that needs to turn on at that voltage.


Problem?  An element using much power at 24V is probably going to overheat at 60V.

Some of the higher voltage circuits could be used to disconnect the lower voltage elements.


The (note A) still applies.


Fourth...

Mostly a note to self.  Maybe it'll give someone an idea.


Maybe several series sets of parallel resistors in series with the battery.


Several of my kits monitor the voltage of the battery AND their personal resistor.

When the windmill voltage is high enough, the element for that voltage turns on.


Again the (note A) still applies.


=


I see the problem being the efficiency drops like hot lava in a poop picking up contest.


If the voltage can't double in high winds, the efficiency is "poop".


The scale of this things changing voltage puts a twist in my circuits panties.


It could be done pretty well with something above and a 3~5 staged PWM thing.  I think.


 *My Circuit
is intended to imply something working within the same concepts.

The 3914, with enough tweaks, could fall easily into that catagory.

And there must be many other circuits too.


Like Dave said.  "Thank you for any suggestions."


G-


PS- Dave, sorry I missed you guys during the blizzard.  Seems like yesterday, but dang if it ain't snowing again.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 03:47:24 PM by (unknown) »
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satmanuk

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 04:16:13 PM »


Arduino PLC and a small actuator controlled blade/knife switch


with that $20 PLC you could probably do RPM, volts, current, FreQ, Wireles telemetary, multiple servo/actuator control


just a though!


:)

« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 04:16:13 PM by (unknown) »

FishbonzWV

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 04:47:43 PM »
Ghurd

I've got some used solid state relays that you might work into the system.

The 3 phase is 40 Amp /24 Volt coil...also have 4 each 25 Amp.

The single is 40 Amp /3-24 Volt coil...about 8 each on heat sinks.





« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 04:47:43 PM by (unknown) »
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ghurd

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 04:50:55 PM »
Great!

I use my ax to chop stamps into plcs.

Meaning I think I know what you said, mostly, but I can not do it.

The kids may be able to do this stuff in their sleep.


If you mean simple On/Off, then this situation implicates far deeper issues.


"multiple servo/actuator control" could be useful.


And I still have no idea why stuff gets BIG or tiny.

G-

« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 04:50:55 PM by (unknown) »
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ghurd

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 05:19:13 PM »
Hey Bonz.  Nice to see you back more often.


SSRs have some serious issues with Vf.  Meaning they get hot!

Other than that, they are mostly just big back-to-back transistors.

Worth a much deeper look under the 'something suitable' catagory!

G-

« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 05:19:13 PM by (unknown) »
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cdog

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 06:52:47 PM »
http://www.flexcharge.com/flexcharge_usa/products/nchc/nchc.htm

Would something like this work, I would like to know the best solution to this as well.....

Cdog.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 06:52:47 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 07:37:04 PM »
I have a negative attitude at the moment.


Things I notice...


The page in the link was last edited 1/18/99.

Dang near antique within these parameters.


Its nice they use big words like "Insertion Loss Resistance (ohms)".

Really?  Resistance is in ohms?


And what the heck is this method of control?

I take it as meaning 12.7V to 16V.  That's 3.3V of hysteresis?  

Wholley Crap!  I made mine for 0.8V max, and that is for LVDs!

http://www.flexcharge.com/flexcharge_usa/charge_method/flexcharge_charge_method.htm


How do they get 98.9% efficiency?  I don't know, and really don't care.


It could be I don't understand the graphs.

Or this type of graph should be shown in a more standard logrithmic format.

It looks like intentional disception to me.


It wouldn't be a far stretch that Morningstar could sue them based based on "PV7 Charging Efficiency" and NASA reports.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 07:37:04 PM by (unknown) »
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cdog

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2008, 07:50:08 PM »
Sorry, I don't know squat about electronics!

I simply noticed the amperage rating, and the advertise that they are "stackable" and can control far more amps.

Are you saying that if I wanted to I could use my little c-35 to be the "brains" to control something home built with much higher capacity?

My solution has to be ready made because like I said this is WAAAYYY out of my league.

I did not mean to step on any toes, just trying to share what I found,

Cdog.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 07:50:08 PM by (unknown) »

Dave B

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 01:57:36 AM »
Thank you Ghurd, Fanman and all others,


  It appears that many will need a higher capacity dump load controller for the larger machines being built even if just battery charging and not heating. I have had such good luck with my 16' direct water heating that Dave M. figures his 20' is destined for a heating application also or least for it's first work out.


  We know it's a balancing act without a controller to get a system to heat direct effectively and still start up. I've been there done that and have the scars to prove it but it does work. 3 KW from my 16' @ 250-300 RPM and fully furling at 25+ MPH.


  For those wondering, it was unfair of me to post the one photo below in my diaries recently with out much explanation. I couldn't help myself as Dave M. rolled this 4' diameter 1/4" plate out of his truck. It just happened to be round and has been used for stator brackets, hub mounts and reinforcements. Fanman, you still win the prize for the largest horizontal I think I've seen on here yet.


  My other photo here shows what will be Dave M's 20' machine shown with 20" rotors 21/28 and test stator and coil all pretty just back from a show we did. He's getting anxious to get this flying and we sure would like to have a 100+ Amp dump load controller on it as a primary heating set up. Keep kicking around the ideas out there and we will too. Ghurd, I think you would certainly have yourself another marketable product here, at least one one be sold right now. Thanks again everyone for your suggestions, let's nail this high capacity dump load controller thing.  Dave & Dave



« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 01:57:36 AM by (unknown) »
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fanman

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 04:28:40 AM »
morning ghurd fanman here,

could you arrange your controller to use the input voltage of my machine which is 85 volts ac and once rectified its 120 volt dc,  i could use multple controllers for different heating elements, that would be simple i also found a frequecy switch that is http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5378&CATID=&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=KE
YWORD&ProdCodeOnly=yes&Keyword1=K&Keyword2=K&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=
&SUBCATI                                        somewaht programmble, not real sure if it would work for high voltage

what do you think?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 04:28:40 AM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 07:08:00 AM »
Don't be sorry.  No toes were stepped on.  

Just trying to point out all the 'large capacity' controllers (that I know of) have some serious isses.  Sometimes the twisted sales pitch can make a problem sound like a good idea.


Yes, the output of a C-35 can have the dump resistors, And also drive a switching circuit to operate resistors separate from the C-35 input amps.

Not sure what could make it simple to install.  There must be a factory made IGBT driver that could handle the output PWM frequency of the C-35, but I wouldn't know what it is.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 07:08:00 AM by (unknown) »
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Opera House

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 07:56:59 AM »
With that current, I'd get something from the Department of Redundancy Department.  I would use four dump load controller set at slightly different voltages stepped 50 to 100mV apart. That will provide some extra safety should one fail.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 07:56:59 AM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 08:30:26 AM »
How's this sound?

Simple and I hope workable.


The 6KW thing means more than 1 heater.

Different heaters come on depending on the voltage.  Voltage depends on the current to the battery.  More current to the battery means more voltage, RPM, and more power available, and so more heaters turn on.


Should let it spin up unloaded.

I think it would keep it out of stall, if the resistors, voltage set points, and heating elements were chosen with some care.


The lowest voltage, Stage #1, would need some kind of protection from higher voltages it will see when the voltage is high enough for Stage #2 or #3 to come on.  (at least my standard circuit would need protected)


Stage #1 heater element will see some large voltage swings between the time it turns on, and when stage #3 turns on.


Then the control circuit to a big IGBT for the heating elements.  Something like Snowcrow did here,

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/3/31/141234/584


If anybody sees a problem, it would be a good time to speak up!


The resistor values are only for the concept.

G-


It sure looks big for 4.6K and 302x429...



« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 08:30:26 AM by (unknown) »
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Flux

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2008, 01:41:45 AM »
I have been too busy to follow this closely.


If you want heating only then why do you want a battery. If it is partly for battery use with normal loads and the rest used for heating it may make sense.


The best way for heating would be 3 phase balanced load heaters but that needs a lot of heaters or a complicated controller.


You can do it on the dc side but you are left with dc contactors or mosfets or IGBTs as the switches.


I can't imagine you will need a lot of stages to load the thing near enough, the prop has a great deal of latitude.


You need the dc voltage to rise roughly with wind speed, clamping to the constant voltage of a battery is a disastrous way to go at things except for pure simplicity.


Stage one lets it freewheel up to a point here the blades come out of stall. You then start loading and a suitable resistor will probably keep you near enough on track from cut in to perhaps 15mph. If you choose this resistor right you will not have enough load for higher winds so you need to switch in more load. Best way would be to switch in one more resistor that would give correct load at furling point and pwm control this so that it was not too steep in the mid wind range.


If you want to avoid pwm then most likely you would need 2 more stages after the first resistor, something that in parallel with the first R would load you properly perhaps to 20mph. The final stage would add one more R so that the 3 in parallel would give the final full load loading.


All these stages will need hysteresis and whatever you do they will cycle on and off and you will have a crude low frequency pwm. If you use contactors the hysteresis will need to be large to stop them cycling too often and hammering themselves to death.


For mosfets the things can be left to cycle at relatively high speeds ( once or twice a second at the worst points would be ok. You should get stable periods where no frequent cycling takes place but with the nature of wind I don't think it will stay in any one stage for long.


Probably the best thing to reference is prop speed ( frequency) and a 2917 tacho chip would give a voltage proportional to prop speed and that could then operate the 3 level detectors to switch the mosfets. The individual levels should be adjustable and you may need individual hysteresis control but it wouldn't need to be much more than selecting resistors in the initial stages of experiment.


It may work using dc voltage for the sensing but the alternator internal resistance will make it much more difficult than speed.


You will need to drive the mosfets sensibly but you will not need the sophistication needed for high frequency switching but it would probably still make sense to use mosfet drivers rather than high impedance things. The resistors and associated wiring will have inductance so a freewheel diode across each would be a wise precaution.


Flux

« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 01:41:45 AM by (unknown) »

sdscott

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2008, 06:46:19 AM »
Flux, what you suggest and discribe for a starting point and solution has been done and posted here:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/1/16/19336/9986


The circuit also includes logical hysteresis.  Does this look like a good place to start/continue?

« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 06:46:19 AM by (unknown) »

go4it

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2008, 08:46:08 AM »
You might wnat to look at this controller


http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/batteryregulator.html

« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 08:46:08 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2008, 09:56:09 AM »
Yes that does look to be the digital solution to the analogue idea I proposed.


For the young who do things digitally I am sure this is the way to go. The end result should be exactly the same.


Flux

« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 09:56:09 AM by (unknown) »

sdscott

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2008, 05:48:29 AM »
The large solenoid (ST-DP) can be purchased and put on the output of just-about any controller (home-built or otherwise), accomplishing the "440" amp capability.  However, the electronics shown (for > $150) still only has one set-point and one output to control a single-load.  It offers no intelligence to increase the resistive load as the wind increases (RPM).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 05:48:29 AM by (unknown) »

smidy

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2008, 11:32:20 AM »
Hi DaveB

maybe i got my hands on someting that you may could have use for. grabed some stuff att work a few days ago, wath i tougth was bridge recitifiers, but when googling the brad name and modell it showed to be some sort of "hevy duty" transistors. google on "santrex" to get to there site and navigate to "QBB 100A60"  for data on them. it sits 4 of them on a large heatsink all paralelled whit "hevy" conections, the heatsink is about 15*15*50cm whit a fan in one end. you can have it for shiping. if it is of intrest i can take a picture or two on it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 11:32:20 AM by (unknown) »
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Dave B

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2008, 12:18:13 PM »
Smidy,

  If you could post a photo or two that would be great. I've been searching Santrex and only get a web service provider or some other stuff not related. Punching in just the model number doesn't do it for me either, it appears this is some kind of darlington transistor ? Maybe others can help us with this also. I would be interested if we can figure out what it is, I'll be standing by.  Thank you,  Dave B.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:18:13 PM by (unknown) »
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smidy

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2008, 04:45:36 AM »
hi DaveB

I did missspelled the brad name.....it´s sanrex.....but here is the adress direct to the data sheat http://www.sanrex.com/module_transistors_pdfs/Darlington/QCA(QBB)100A40-60.pdf    it is in pdf so i hope you got it on your computer. I will try to get a photo on it later today when the cameragirls (wife and doter) come home, they dont like when i erase things on there cameras :-)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 04:45:36 AM by (unknown) »
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smidy

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Re: 100 A dump controller, Ghurd ?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2008, 04:49:53 AM »
I saw that the link was not complete.....copy the end of it so should you get it rigth on target. and yea my spelling sucks, i did mean daugther where i wrote doter in the other post :-)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 04:49:53 AM by (unknown) »
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