Author Topic: Battery Isolator  (Read 8025 times)

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bazz

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Battery Isolator
« on: May 16, 2009, 05:24:57 PM »
I think I may be jumping into this a bit quick....I guess thats one way to learn.


So here is what I have so far....


I have 14 of these batteries http://www.powerfactorinc.com/Batteries/ups12-370.htm

I'm going to run them Parallel. My cable size is....not sure what its called, but its the same size as a 2 ot lug.


I just purchased a trip lite PV3000HF (I hope its good)

It states that I should use 2 UL-listed 250 Amp fuses and fuse block on the Terminals (one on +, and - )


So do I need an Battery Isolator? I think I do because thats what protects the batteries if one should go bad...correct? If so; how do I find what I need? What determines it?

The inverter will be sitting right next to the batteries so there is a foot or two for a run.


Currently...I dont have any solar or wind system to charge the batteries. (I will temporally do it manually with a charger)


I think once the system is set up and a little more cash on hand I will use solar cells to charge them. The run should be no more then a 10ft.


This isnt going to be connected to my house. This is all taking place in my shed as a test bed. Perhaps one day I will try to connect it as a backup, but for now its a learning thing.


As for what do I plan on running...


Items:

A CFL Spotlight outside of the shed to be on all night

Inside CFL

Stereo

A few outlets for tools

A shop Vac


For the most part thats about it until I try to expand.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 05:24:57 PM by (unknown) »

Electron Pump

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2009, 11:38:30 AM »
  Well one thing about the lights. Try to find a 12v stand in to take the place of the C.F.L.'s. That way you wont have eto be running that inverter all the time. By the way I've heard that those are O.K. inverters but they use 35 to 40 watts with no load on them. So if you are running a 23 watt CFL through the inverter you are really using 63 watts.

  I've took apart an old flourescent Coleman lantern and made me a little wall fixture to hold the bulbs and switch and I get a lot of light for 8 watts.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 11:38:30 AM by (unknown) »

bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2009, 12:11:24 PM »
Sorry its all new....      12 V light stand? Is there any way of converting a AC lamp to DC? So I would connect that direct to the Battery if it were a 12v stand correct? No need for anything else?


Care to share how you did that with the Coleman lantern?


I'm a little worried now...I went looking for user reviews for the PV3000HF and only found one on amazon that says...


"When you put a low charge to this it doesn't send the 110 V. It sends about 90V and you have a risk to damage the device plugged. when it sends the 110V works great and it's really quiet. it saves the battery very well. In general terms it's a very good product"


So is that telling me I'm unable to charge while its in use? If that is the case...I need to look for a new inverter...

So what would be a good inverter? (sorry I asked this before.) What is the difference between a good inverter and an OK inverter?


Thanks

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 12:11:24 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2009, 01:32:07 PM »
I think E-Pump meant use a 12VDC CFL instead of using an inverter to operate a 120VAC CFL.


The reviewer is confused.

Most MSW inverters put out 90V if measured with a regular meter.  It is just how the meter interprets the MSW.

G-

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 01:32:07 PM by (unknown) »
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bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2009, 01:45:30 PM »
Ohhh So I can plug a 12VDC CFL in a normal lamp and that will work? So I should be able to run this right off the batteries correct....?


Thanks for clearing that up...I was thinking I was gonna have to dump out more cash on a different inverter.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 01:45:30 PM by (unknown) »

RandomJoe

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2009, 01:53:16 PM »
Not sure what you would need the isolator for.  The only isolator I am familiar with is intended to isolate a house battery from starting battery in an RV or such so loads left on in the RV don't drain the engine starting battery.  I suppose you could isolate parallel banks of batteries from each other, which would keep one bad battery from discharging another, but it isn't necessary.  Mine are all just hardwired together.


Maintaining 14 batteries in parallel is quite a challenge, as is running that much amp-hour at 12V.  You're talking over 500 amps to cover the surge rating on that inverter!  Speaking of which, it seems odd the manual says to use 250A fuses when the specs on their website indicate 286A to run at full continuous power...  Charging is another issue, to get a proper charge you need to (ideally) be able to get to 5-10% of the AH rating in charge current.  1400AH means 70-140A charge current.


I have found that 120V CFL bulbs run through an inverter don't pull that much more than a native 12V fluorescent.  I compared two 16W bulbs, and had 1.4A for the native, and 1.55A for the 120V with inverter.  But that was with a 300W inverter with very low consumption itself.  The one you have consumes considerably more for itself - the website says 1.5A idle current.  If you want to stick with 120V bulbs (they are certainly far cheaper to replace than the 12V models) I'd suggest getting a second much smaller inverter just for the lighting needs.


But my first suggestion, assuming you don't have any other reason to go 12 volt, would be to wire the batteries in series/parallel to make a 48V bank.  That would mean returning the inverter and getting a 48V one, but it also means a lot better efficiency and 1/4 the current draw on the DC side.  Only problem is you would have two batteries left out - four batteries per 48V string, three strings paralleled, with two left over.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 01:53:16 PM by (unknown) »

bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2009, 02:20:52 PM »
I was looking at the user manual and it was showing the isolator. Well thats good to know its not needed.


You say that Maintaining 14 batteries in parallel is challenging....why is that? What makes it hard? I'm a noob so I have no idea as to why.


As for the 250A fuses...thats what is stated in the manual...guess they should update that.


Also for the charging....I have no idea what any of the stuff you posted means. So I guess its not as simple as adding a simple solar cell to charge it. I'm gonna have to work that out.


I was going to use this to do it manually for now

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&ca
talogId=10053&productId=100609979&N=10000003+90260+3472


The one reason for wanting to use the 12 V is.....48 is kinda high and I dont want to kill my self.


I do not understand the advantage and disadvantages of running 12V, 24V, and 48V. Why is one better than the other?


If I were to go 48V I could always use this inverter for the two left over batteries. I bought this one off ebay so I'm stuck with it.


Thanks

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:20:52 PM by (unknown) »

dnix71

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2009, 03:48:20 PM »
Car voltage is 12. Many people live in their cars (commuting to/from work), so there are many inexpensive appliances that are made for people like that.


Semi truck voltage is 24, so there are many appliances (not so cheap) that run off 24 volts.


Inverters that use 12/24 volts are common and cheap.


Forty eight volts is more efficient. The losses from wire impedance go up with the square of the current, so 48 volts at x watts will have 1/16 line loss compared to 12 volts at x watts, all other things being equal. You will need much larger wire to properly connect a 12v system than a 48v system.


Forty eight volt inverters are not common or cheap, though, and there are few appliances that work natively at 48v either.


If you go with a 48 volt system, you will be forced to use an inverter. If you use 12v, then you will not need an inverter for most things that can actually be run from batteries.


http://www.3rivers.net/~cmac/


has appliances that run directly from 12/24 volts. Microwave oven, pumps, washers and dryers, tv/satellite systems, kitchen applainces, etc.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 03:48:20 PM by (unknown) »

bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2009, 04:09:41 PM »
Yeah the cabling I bought for this project is some thick stuff. Its 2 OT if that is the correct term. The runs are going to be short so I dint think it be a big deal. For a long run I guess I would need to rethink the setup. Am I correct in thinking this?


I wanted to keep the voltage down to 12V due to safety. (I have a son who like go in the shed while I'm not looking and the dog likes to sneak in there sometimes too. That and I'm a total noob and would more than likely hurt myself if it were higher.)


So all in all 48V is more efficient running across a smaller line and longer distances. Correct?


As for charging....I'm still confused. I have read where people are charging 12V batteries with an 18V solar panel. I was thinking I would do the same. So will that be possible with the way I'd like to set it up?

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 04:09:41 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 05:48:35 PM »
I would not use an isolator, or separate the batteries.

Or go to higher voltage for the first system.


That's a big battery bank to keep topped off with a charger.


"Two-Ought" or "Two-Aught" is #2/0 or #00 wire.  That means US or Canada?  24V items not so common, even for semis.  If 24V was common, then certainly Trucklight (unduly big name given the quality) would make more items for 24V.  Major semi players have local dealerships and they all looked at me like I was crazy when asking for anything 24V.


And I had to import 24VDC CFLs from Canada, because there was only one model available is the USA (that I could find) when I needed them.

G-

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 05:48:35 PM by (unknown) »
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bob g

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2009, 05:56:48 PM »
12 volt nominal is the predominant voltage for all trucks in the US, probably 99%

are 12 volt nominal


european from what i understand is just about the same percentage, but favoring 24 volts


the canadians seem to be split with some of each?


not surprised at all about getting blank stares from parts counters in the lower 48

if you ask for 24volt accessories, hard enough getting 24 volt alternators and starters for the few applications that use them. and of the 24volt systems, all of them are just for the starting system, all accessories run on 12volts.


probably be seeing that change over the next few years, but currently that is what is available.


bob g

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bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2009, 06:02:25 PM »
So you think I should cut the size of the bank down a bit or keep all 14? What would you suggest? Would making two banks of seven be a better way to go?


I would eventual like to have a solar panel charge it. Is that possible at that size to keep it topped off?


"Two-Ought" or "Two-Aught" is #2/0 or #00 wire. Thanks for clearing that up. :)


Thanks for all the input, and sorry for being a layman. I have a big and healthy respect for electricity so I'm very unsure and parodied at this point.


Thanks

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 06:02:25 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2009, 07:00:09 PM »
Me?  I would decide how many charging amps will be available in the mostly near future.

Keep enough batteries to suit that.  Sell the rest to pay for another amp or 2 of RE charging current.


It really doesn't make sense to have 1400AH of battery self-discharging so you can replenish it with a grid charger.


That is a LOT of battery power.

G-


PS- Bob G, I have not been a big proponent of 24V in the USA/CA.  The smaller 24V stuff is rare, uncommon, and either expensive or junk or both.

I hear Down Under has 24V truck stuff almost as common as 12V.

Strange story.  When I needed a small 24VDC to 120VAC 60Hz inverter, I almost (I was outbid) got one on ebay... from England.  Figure that one out.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 07:00:09 PM by (unknown) »
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RandomJoe

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2009, 07:18:39 PM »
The biggest problem with parallel banks is keeping all the batteries equally charged.  Even very short runs of large wire still have a bit of resistance.  So, if you just lay all the batteries side by side and use jumpers down the entire length, then pull power off one end, the battery at the end you are pulling from sees less wire between it and the load than the one at the other end of the string.  Same thing for charging, it's easier to push power into the closest one than the one at the far end.


One option to overcome that is to tap power at diagonally opposite ends of the bank, so if you are standing at one end of the string you hook (say) the negative there then the positive connects to the battery down at the farthest end.  That puts the same number of "links between batteries" in the path current takes through any battery in the string.  (This is what I have done with my 12V bank.)


On the charging, the "recommended" charge rates are generally in the 5-10% of total AH capacity range.  Some AGMs actually go much higher.  Your batteries are 100AH capacity, when you parallel them you wind up with 1400AH.  5-10% of that is 70-140, so the recommended charge rate would be 70-140 amps.  Personally, I've found it isn't always necessary, I have successfully kept batteries charged with 2-3% of AH, but it's slow and (with solar) very likely to mean many frequent days without full charge if the day isn't bright and sunny, especially if you use very much of the bank's capacity at all.


Here's a website I found quite useful for learning about batteries and charging, it'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know about them! :-)

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm


If you have a real reason / desire to run 12V, there's certainly nothing wrong with that.  My bank is set up 12V, but that was because I run my ham radio gear straight off of it.  And as others said, it's a lot easier to find 12V "stuff" to run straight off the bank.  But if someone isn't intending to get 12V gear, and their primary interest is items that are going to run from an inverter (as your list suggested to me) there's no real need to do so.


The higher you go with the voltage of the bank, the lower the current.  That is really the whole reason in a nutshell.  Current flow is what generates heat and losses, and requires larger / lossier / more power hungry devices to handle.  So the lower you can get it, the more efficient everything will be.  It can also be harder (or more expensive) to find switches, breakers and such to handle the larger currents.  


The most interesting thing I have found is how hard it is to keep the voltage drop in a run of wire acceptable.  Most of the wire sizing charts you will find are based on an "acceptable" voltage drop.  That is, if you run up to the amperage limits they allow, you WILL have X% voltage drop.  At 120V, that might be okay.  At 48V even, it's not too terrible.  But at 12V, with so little room between full charge and discharged, it can be a real problem for some electronics that are sensitive to it.


And while yes, 48V is potent, I would say a 12V bank has the potential to be just as hazardous.  It needs to be well-protected from prying fingers and eyes regardless of the voltage.  A metal tool (or anything conductive) accidentally dropped across a bank with that capacity is going to vaporize metal, sending what's left flying in a big bang.  You won't have the big problem with hydrogen gas generation that a flooded-cell bank would, but even AGMs can vent gas if overcharged.


Anyway, as you said initially there's plenty to learn so jump in and have fun! :-)  There's no reason you can't decide later to rearrange things if you want.  I have already done that a couple times myself.  I've only been reading about and experimenting with this stuff for a year now, started with the Harbor Freight 45W kit last summer and just finished a 500W system this month.  I did have a little head start, as I'm an electrical engineering grad but the whole off-grid power system idea has been a fun new learning experience for me.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 07:18:39 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2009, 10:33:29 PM »
Seriously I do not understand the thinking, asking AFTER you buy something??

Checked the reviews after you buy it??


Inverters draw quiescent current, larger units more quiescent current.

Large inverters even with on/off switch may draw current. Check it out.


CFL are available in 12v versions, expensive $15 each.

Small inverters (70w) switched on DC side can drive AC CFL as the only load just as efficiently for about the same money, advantage, maybe couple CFL or have ability to replace bulb.


Charging

AGM can handle wide charging rates. Best is what you have.


Higher battery voltage.

Do not tap off the battery bank. Ex: 48v, DO NOT tap off 12v.


Welcome to the fun.

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 10:33:29 PM by (unknown) »

bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2009, 06:54:38 AM »
Wow...That helped a lot!!! Thanks for the link!!


So now this makes me wonder....


Maybe what I should do Is take 2 or 4 batteries and keep it at 12V to run the lighting,(Charge with a single solar panel) and run the rest at 24v (Have a second Panel at 24v to charge the rest of the bank....if that would work thats still a lot of AH)


Im sure running at 48V would be better, but my confidence level is low at this point....(Baby steps Bob)(little joke there..What about Bob)


And from the sounds of it; 24V is a nice middle ground.


I plan on getting a big rubber mat to place over the batteries for safety concerns as I stated earlier, just to give my self a small peace of mind.


So how would I figure the 5-10% of total AH capacity range in the solar panel world to do the charging. Is there any thing I can do to set it up for that amount?

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 06:54:38 AM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2009, 06:57:00 AM »
Scott;




Seriously I do not understand the thinking, asking AFTER you buy something??

Checked the reviews after you buy it??


I guess I never understood this, either. In this hobby I usually wrote it off to the excitement of a new hobby. Been there, done that myself, too.


A story from a few years ago when Iowa started a deer hunting season. A bunch of us were going on a hunt that winter and one of the guys [not me] read everything he could on proper arms for deer hunting in our terrain and went and bought a 30/30 lever action rifle which an author had stated had killed more deer than any other rifle in history. Probably true but Iowa had a law that you could only use a shotgun with solid slugs for deer.


Needless to say he had to borrow a shotgun and rounds from someone who brought a spare double barrel 12 gage shotgun. It was a fine rifle but totally unsuited to his needs. I wrote that off to excitement, also.


Sorry to divert from the topic but it seemed to parallel the buying an inverter then checking if it was suitable.


On topic: I started at 12 volts then switched to 24 after a few years. Wish I had gone to 48 in hindsight, now.


BTW, the statements by some about "all the items available for 12 volts" while true is silly because nearly all that 12 volt stuff is designed for use in operating vehicles with massive power available at 12 volts. Not good for an RE powered system.


Think about it.


Just my views from experience and not reading it someplace.


Good luck with it.


Tom

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 06:57:00 AM by (unknown) »

bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2009, 07:08:26 AM »
Well I did ask for ideas in a different post. But perhaps I should have started a new thread as it kinda became a sub post.


I started to look around for an inverter and happen to find this one. The spec looked good from what I could tell (goes to show you how much I know) and I saw a place that kinda gave it a review and said it was decent. (Its not like I cant use it for anything) I did not find the review on amazon until after the fact.


As for the 12V CFL thing.... I would have to agree with you If I was going to place them throughout my house, but I'm not....It will just be two lights for my shed. So the way I see it at the moment....not a big deal for my situation. I could be wrong, but at this point I dont think I am.


"Charging

AGM can handle wide charging rates. Best is what you have."


What is AGM? I dont understand the above comment.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 07:08:26 AM by (unknown) »

bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2009, 07:18:12 AM »
"Charging

AGM can handle wide charging rates. Best is what you have."


What is AGM? I dont understand the above comment.


Never mind...that was a duh...

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 07:18:12 AM by (unknown) »

bob g

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2009, 06:18:17 PM »
Tom:


i tend to agree regarding buying stuff before one does the research, you end up with a ton of stuff that in the end is not very useful.


same goes for the use of 12 volts, while a successful system can be built around

a 12volt battery bank, not many folks would tolerate the constraints of living with 12volts.


small cabin, one or two frugal people that are on the same page when it comes to being anal about conservation, maybe a 12volt system will suffice just fine.

If one can build his own buck converter(s) one might even be able to get some decent wind generation downloaded to the battery bank?



  1. volts is certainly workable for most folks, with some careful planning, or so it would seem
  2. volts and then one can step up to nearly that of a grid connected install, provided there is enough capacity.


the way the market is going, the way i see it is


  1. volts is ok for small scale or, experimental or, hobby installations.
  2. volts is really the new 12volts, in that it would appear to be a good entry level


for serious offgrid, and should be just fine if done right.

48 volts seems to be where the industry has settled, and for good reason.


now we gotta wait for more stuff in 48 to be built, there are 24 volt appliances available,, and maybe there will be 48 sooner than later?


for myself i think i have settled on 24volts, but

depending on some test results on 48volt generation efficiency will determine if i stay with the 24volt plan or move up to 48volts?


if it was just me, and not me and a wife, i would just stick with a 24volt system and call it a day. the only reason i would go for 24 instead of 12, is based on test results that demonstrate a dramatic increase in efficiency going from 12volt generation to 24 volt generation, let alone transmission and conversion efficiencies.


system evolution is a funny thing, and expensive if one doesn't do the homework first!


bob g

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 06:18:17 PM by (unknown) »
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bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2009, 06:46:39 PM »
Yes I agree I should have done more homework, but to be honest the more I read the more I get lost and dont understand.


Unfortunately I am not one of those people that can learn a bunch of stuff by reading. I need to do it in order to understand it! Thats my big thing. Every time I go to atempt this project I read, get lost, and than say oh forget about it....do it some other time.


I'm sure If I had someone I could work with side by side that might be a different story, but I dont.


I have now tried to plan the for a couple years now and have dropped it due to the overwhelming amount of information out . I get lost in the endless abyss of information out there. So at this point I thought I'd take the same approach as I did when I first started to learn about computers and operating systems. It took me many years to gain the knowledge I have today.


At this point I'm glad to find that a 24V system might be a good place to start and might hold a little value for what I might like to use it for.


So what I think I may do at this point is use a few batteries as a 12V system for some light and a few other things...and Perhaps make a 24V system to try a little more advance setup....? I dont know...but input is greatly appreciated.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 06:46:39 PM by (unknown) »

bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2009, 08:16:14 PM »
OK..So what I have learned so far...


12V system is ok for something small.


A 48V system would be a better set up due to the size of the bank I have and the efficiency. However the 48V scare the hell out of me so I was thinking of going 24V...I may still toy with the 48Vs idea.


This leaves me to ask...What kind of inverter should I look at? I would like to look into a 24V and 48V so any suggestions?


Granted I bought the PV3000HF some cabling and lugs, so I'm out about $350...Yes a loss, but not a huge one. Besides I can still use that stuff for something smaller.


So now my question is (perhaps I should start a new thread for this?) How in the world would I charge something like that?


I would guess if I were using solar Panels I'd have to connect them in series as well to obtain the 24V, 48V. That be a lot of panels wouldn't it? (I guess it depend on the size of the panel so that was a dumb question.)

Or I guess a wind mill at 24V or 48V...but that be a lot more $$$ correct?


What I'd like to do, is do this in steps. (If possible) I dont want to connect it to my house any time soon but would like to use it as a back up if anything should ever go south. (Or maybe I should set that up?)


For now I can put up the 12V system to run some lighting, just to make use of a very small amount of what I have.


So can any one give me suggestion on how they think I should attack this? What would you do? What should I look at? What kind of equipment?


I started looking at other equipme that is way over my head but I found interesting. So does anyone know about these units?


http://www.thesolar.biz/magnum_energy_msae_120240_volt.htm


Big $$ but looks interesting. But then again, I have no idea what I'm looking at. I just like the idea it doe 120 and 240 (I have a well pump). Yes I know its kinda funny I'm saying that.


Sorry to go on and on...just trying to learn a thing or two.

Thanks

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 08:16:14 PM by (unknown) »

bob g

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2009, 10:13:13 PM »
here is a thought:


how about dividing the batteries you have into two banks, seperate 12volt banks.


that way you can use one bank with the inverter you already have, while the other bank is charging.


that way you can alternate back and forth, sizing is a bit more appropriate and managable, and providing charging for a 700 amp/hr bank (half of the total) is much more managable in my opinion for a guy starting out.


down the road as you gain experience and if you have kept both banks of batteries in good condition you could then series connect them for 24vdc when you are ready to graduate, or subdivide again and setup for 48vdc should you feel like going that far.


as for fearing 48vdc, yes you can get a shock, but it really isn't that bad, likly not lethal unless you are standing in water and tied up tight to the cable.


12volts at 1400amp/hrs is likely on the order of 4000+ amps at 12volts if there is a short, enough to fuse a 3/8 bolt in just a few seconds with a horrible explosion and a blinding flash,, point being even 12volts can be dangerous when you got a large battery bank.  you can weld with two 20amp/hr twelve volt batteries, not for long but certainly can weld a bit.


if you are looking for advice, this is what i would advise


split the bank you have in half, and alternate charging/using each half

learn how the system works, get your charging down pat, and learn how to effectively do that.

after you have mastered that, series connect the batteries and put a 24vdc inverter

or reconfigure the bank for 48 volt inverter.


meanwhile find a copy of these two books


http://cgi.ebay.com/Wiring-12-Volts-For-Ample-Power_W0QQitemZ270328173006QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Texbo
ok_Education?hash=item3ef0d091ce&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12
%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50


http://cgi.ebay.com/LIVING-ON-12-VOLTS-WITH-AMPLE-POWER-BY-DAVID-SMEAD_W0QQitemZ310142103772QQcmdZVi
ewItemQQptZUS_Nonfiction_Book?hash=item4835e8f0dc&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7
C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50


both are geared toward 12volts, which will serve you well know, but the theory

works for 24 and 48 as well.


others might suggest something else, but this is what i would do


bob g

« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 10:13:13 PM by (unknown) »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
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bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 06:43:55 AM »
Thank you for the suggestion. I think I'll give that ago. Sounds like a good way to learn! I just purchased one of the books and I'm waiting on the other. Cant wait to get started!

Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 06:43:55 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 01:16:13 PM »
Re 12/24/48:


Power is amps time volts.  Cut your battery voltage in half and you have to pull twice the current to get the same power.


Power lost in wiring resistance goes with the SQUARE of the current.  So your wire needs FOUR TIMES the cross section to have the same percentage of losses with twice the current.


100 Amps (nominal) is about as big as common equipment and wire goes.  You CAN find wire in bigger sizes easily (if you're willing to pay the price for the copper you need to handle that square-law business) and other stuff (switches, terminals, etc.) for higher currents.  But at 200 amps running the wire starts to get like wrestling anacondas (sez the guy who just upgraded his house to 200 amp service) and the miscelaney starts getting harder to find and pricier.


So people tend to use 12V for systems up to about 1KW or thereabouts, 24 up to 2KW, and 48 for bigger stuff.  Below 50V nominal you're in the "low voltage" part of the wiring code (and dealing with voltages that usually won't lock up you and stop your heart if you bump them).  So most R.E. installations are 48V or lower.


Re:  Paralleling lots of batteries:  The "kiddy-corner" system, where you parallel the batteries and hook up to the + on one end and - on the other balances the wiring voltage drop when charging and discharging of TWO batteries.  For more it's a heck of a lot better than hooking to the end battery of the string, but the batteries in the middle loaf compared to the ones at the ends.  To get it dead even (using equal-length jumpers) then going from the farthest-from-the-load battery to the next one closer you'd use one jumper, from that to the next one you'd use two in parallel, etc.  You'll use the same amount of wire and a HECK of a lot less terminal lugs to run individual cables to a terminal block - making sure the sum of the length of the + and - jumpers on each paralleled battery (or string) is the same (though some might have long + and short - wires or the other way around).

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 01:16:13 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2009, 03:39:12 PM »
OK.  I am probably out of line with this, but it never stopped me before.


You have no charging system in place.  RE or otherwise.

The first RE charging system will be small because it is proof of concept?


And 24V pretty much sucks due to costs and wishing the system was 48V at the start, 48V is great with large systems, and 12V is good for smaller systems.


And 48V needs 4X the batteries, or 1/4th the battery of a similar sturdy construction, or whatever.  The smallest good battery is a 6V golf cart battery


And 24V inverters have limitations of quality, cost, and availability compared to 12V inverters (in the USA).


And the specified loads are mostly minor and intermittent.  How much 12V wire will a 48V inverter suited to 2 CFLs cost?


Until the charging is over 1000~2000W for a good percentage of the time, or the load is over 2000W a few percentage of the time, saving money on wire seems insignificant.


A system suited to a 48V 220AH bank is a considerable system.

I doubt the system is enough to cover the extra costs of a 48V system for 2 lights in the shed.


Looks like a 12V system to me.

I do not see that as contrary to what was posted earlier.

G-

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 03:39:12 PM by (unknown) »
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bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2009, 04:52:49 PM »
Yes It will be proof of concept, and a learning experience.

I dont have anything in place to charge the system as of yet, but was thinking of trying to build a solar panel to do the charge work. (again a learning thing.)

I want to learn how to set a system up just to do a few things nothing major. (run a shop vac, radio and a few lights) As nice as it would be to have something connect to my house; that is obviously way out of my league. Once I'm a bit more comfortable I think I'll look the bigger picture.


I think What I will do as what bob g suggested above. Its a bit more manageable, yet I'm sure will still be a little challenge for me.


Thanks

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 04:52:49 PM by (unknown) »

bob g

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2009, 09:09:07 PM »
not sure i would agree that there is a shortage of 24volt inverters in the US.


outback, xantrex, magnum, and others make a fairly wide selection of 24volt units

and for the most part have moved away from 12 volt units save for those modified sine wave units aimed at the mobile market.


surely you aren't suggesting that the 24 volt offerings are less reliable than the 12volt units?


of course the 24 volt units are somewhat spendy in comparison, but meant for continous use in offgrid applications, and some for gridtie applications as well.


not sure i can argue against one or the other, obviously one can make a case for both 12 and 24 as well.


bob g

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 09:09:07 PM by (unknown) »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

lucas

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2009, 09:37:40 PM »
Hi,

    I'm also a noob. Thankyou for asking most of the same questions i have.

With the countless hours I've spent reedin the posts on this forum , this set has to be the most informative . I too was thinking of a 12volt system................


     I'll keep reeding if you keep asking.


                                              Lucas

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 09:37:40 PM by (unknown) »

bob g

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2009, 10:32:26 PM »
the best advise i can give you is this, (ok, better advise)


don't take my word for anything!


sit down and write down all your questions, leave space between them for various answers.


go out and find all the answers you can for each question, at some point you will notice a pattern develops.


old bob g, might be right on some things, and wrong on others

just as everybody else you get answers from, sometimes you get the wrong answer

because you ask a question that is not clear or because the guy who answered didn't understand the question, or whatever.


i usually dig until i find at least 3 different sources that are in agreement before i adopt or take it as fact, sources such as sandia labs, engineering text, etc, having a higher value than some guy on the internet.  this is not to say there are not some very sharp folks online, because there certainly are.


often times it is some persons assertion online that will start me on my trek to find supporting evidence to back up the claim.


oh yes, lest i forget


don't accept it can't be done until you have proven to yourself that it can't be done,, the only exception to this rule are things that fly in the face of physics and good science. overunity is one of these exceptions, if anyone including the village idiot tells you that overunity cannot work, best believe him without proof.


bob g

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 10:32:26 PM by (unknown) »
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

scottsAI

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2009, 12:09:06 AM »
Bazz,


You do to learn,

I read to learn, Yet, I rarely build.


Well

My ground water is 8 feet down. From basement only couple feet.

RV pump supplies water when power is out, works great, cheap. You many not be as lucky.


System

Start with what you have, 12v. Many as well learn with it.

Transformers convert 120 to 220 on ebay 2kw unit for $70. Your 3kw inverter should be able to start well pump. (try RV pump first!)


Inverter

Do not connect the inverter to house wiring, most inverters no neutral!!! (both wires hot)

Your's is a mod sin output, motors do not like this, some work OK. Test short time, see if hotter than normal before continuing use.


Battery

Consider buss bars to connect, cheaper then wire with crimp connectors, more reliable. Cheaper to go with heaver interconnect.

Electrically Insulate buss bars to prevent accentual shorts.

Leave space between batteries allowing for expansion (temp, time (sulfating))


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 12:09:06 AM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2009, 06:37:50 AM »
I mean there is a shortage of SMALL known-name common 24V to 110-120VAC inverters.

Inexpensive would be nice too.


A quick search on ebay shows the cheapest 24V to 110-120V inverter at $129, and it has no name at all, not even a unknown name.

Cheapest name I heard of is an AIMS for $469 (to be fair, it is 5000W).

Only other name brand inverters are 2 Xantrex. $1500 and $2300 (both true sine).

There is a 250W ProWatt improperly listed as 12-24V due to the owners manual title, so there must be a few 24V versions somewhere.


Can run the 2 AC CFLs and stereo from a $20 12V 175W or 225W Vector.


A 24V system seems over the top for the plan so far.

G-

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:37:50 AM by (unknown) »
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bazz

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Re: Battery Isolator
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2009, 08:19:44 AM »
This may be a silly question but...


"Your's is a mod sin output, motors do not like this, some work OK. Test short time, see if hotter than normal before continuing use."


How would I test that? See if the motor runs hot?


"Consider buss bars to connect,"


Can you give me an example with a link? I looked around but not sure what I found was correct.

Examples: First two hits on google


http://ca.binnacle.com/product_info.php?products_id=1236


http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catalog/bin/TE.Connect?c=24079&M=FEAT&LC=en


Thanks...once again...very informative!

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 08:19:44 AM by (unknown) »