forget grid tie... how about some smart switching instead?

[TomW]

Alan;

Then I suspect you need to either educate & train the family or get out your checkbook / credit card and buy an inverter that is something like the Outback FX2524T I just bought. It will hurt.

It can be set up like a big UPS that just runs when your grid goes down or as a stand alone inverter or several other ways that will likely fit your needs. Not at all cheap but that is how it is with "hands off" stuff. You either have to work at it some or pay for the convenience of set it and forget it. Just how it is.

Cheers.

TomW

[scottsAI]

Yep:)

You should be able to tell what type of meter you have.

Take a look at the gears, any worms in there?

If more than 10 years old not worm. (that I heard about). Your co-op? sounds cheap, not worm.

The smart meters can be read from the road, depending on the system that could be 300ft to 1000ft. Will have an electronic module, may have analog meter or LCD.

Time of service can pay back big for solar. CA peak time cost is 50cent/kwhr, off 5 cents. Using a battery system is actually worth spinning the meter. All your power free!

Have fun,

Scott.

[asheets]

$1500 doesn't sound so bad to me at all...

[scottsAI]

Asheets,

I think it was an important question, as you see it does not have any simple answers. More of how do you feel about this... wife, kids, can be dealt with. Take power away from kids rooms for a while if they screw up, they learn fast, it can be made fun.

The wife is a completely other problem, do you have her buy-in or are you just doing it?

In the resulting exchange I and I'm sure others got something out of it.

Would be interested in how you decide to resolve it.

Have fun,

Scott.

[nothing to lose]

I probably agree with about everything you said at least 90% perhaps.

" If I need to do some welding on a piece of haying equipment in July, I can't afford to wait five days for the wind to start blowing. "

What does that have to do with gridtie inverters though? You either have the grid or you do not? You CAN have BOTH Grid and RE but not tie them together. So if you have not had wind, just use the grid. Or charge batteries from the grid and carry them and the inverter out to the field to work like I do. Gridtie inverters really have nothing to do with that part. Only if you will make enough RE power to replace it, sending it back to the grid would it matter.

With a Farm or such, perhaps you can. I probably could here I am pretty sure.

MOST people will not be averaging ZERO usage from the grid with net metering, if they are on grid they will be using it and paying for it, just not for as much of it.

"I guess it depends on how you want to live. "

Not at all really, but that does kinda apply to even being intersted in making your own power at all.

I think the basic point being missed is that there are 4 options not just 3 options.

Off grid, On grid, Grid tie, and the 4th RE AND Grid but not tied.

 Net Metering is great for those that really have it. Here it's referred to as net metering but it's not, they only have to pay AVOIDED COST, whatever that happens to be, not actaul retail as true net metering. And too much problem to get online with it also.

The real question and what I'm reffering to is would it be better to save money on equipment and just use all the power you make yourself without bothering with the gridtie expense. I don't think anyone is really understanding what I am talking about though.

It's not like you have to give up the grid just because you don't gridtie. You can use everything you want on the grid anytime, use everything you want on the inverter anytime, switch back and forth if you want. All kinds of options and choices even without a gridtie inverter.  But only if your willing to have batteries.

It's mostly only a question of do you want power when the grid is down, if yes then you need batteries no matter what you want to do otherwise.

 Then, IF your going to buy batteries so you have power when the grid is down, do you still want to spend the EXTRA money for a gridtie inverter?? Some people don't care about money at all, others do. Some have lot's some don't. Some have credit cards and THINK they have money, but don't.

So I geuss the idea here I am trying to get acrossed is I can use all the power I can make all by myself and I still have all the grid I can use, I saved AT LEAST $1500 compared to what a SMALLER gridtie system would have cost me. That $1500 that I saved then I can use towards building a new gennie or buying solar panels to make myself even more power I can use. The more power I can make, even using it myself, is less fossil feuls or other dirty stuff the grid has to use to make the power I made myself. So even if I never send the grid 1kwhr, I have still done just as much to save the world anyway, because I did not use their dirty power.

I DO want power when the grid is down though also, so I DO have to have batteries myself. For me personally then I am still saving whatever fossil feuls by NOT using the grid for any power I can make myself. Earlier this year I was making more than I am now, I took stuff down while I was away for the summer. Did not put it back up because I was not here much till recently.

 I'll be making Wind power again soon here. I will have GRID AND RE both at once, just NOT tied together.

 I will never be without power, some items won't work when the GRID goes down (hot water tank, well pump), but I will have everything else still running.

 My neighbors will have nothing! Or they will be burning fossil feuls in their gas generators and wasting tons of money for that feul. Any grid tie without battery people in this area have the same problems.

I will NOT. I will have more power with my batteries and 5k Inverter than they have with a 2500watt gas gennie.

 We normally have strong winds durring winter. About every year we lose power around here for ahwile. I am sure we will this year again, well some people will anyway

Anyway I been not getting much done on projects because I been stuck near this computer doing a video job on the other computer next to it. I have that project about finished now which means I don't have to sit here working on it and waiting around so much for things to get done. I hopefully I will be getting back to my projects now and online allot less again.

 Things like that video is one of the reasons I can't be without batteries, 30minutes of backup power is useless on a job like that if the grid went down. And here that could be anytime for any reason.

[finnsawyer]

Personally, I don't see the difference.  With a dual system you have dual costs anyway.  With net metering you might be able to increase the size of your wind turbine and gain by that.  You put down the use of a gen-set, when really the little use of fossil fuels when the grid is down is not significant.  It doesn't take much power to keep a freezer going and some lights on.  Heat could be another matter.  The fact is that net metering is here and it does change the equation concerning grid tie.  It will affect decisions concerning the size of wind system to install and how to set it up.  It should advance the use and design of wind powered systems, which should be to the good.

Here's a thought.  Suppose the electric car makes a come back due to improved batteries.  Such a vehicle would use considerable power, and would tie in nicely with a grid tie system, making even larger personal wind turbines practical and saving on fossil fuels.  

[willib]

"Here's a thought.  Suppose the electric car makes a come back due to improved batteries.  Such a vehicle would use considerable power, and would tie in nicely with a grid tie system, making even larger personal wind turbines practical and saving on fossil fuels. "

i agree ,with the use of ultracapacitors by Honda FCX, which act as batteries.

the great thing about ultracaps is they can absorb as much power as you can supply ,up to their voltage limit.

http://world.honda.com/news/2002/4021122.html

although they should probably switch to a Flow battery design instead of hydrogen fuel cells.

[nothing to lose]

"Personally, I don't see the difference.  With a dual system you have dual costs anyway.  With net metering you might be able to increase the size of your wind turbine and gain by that."

You only GAIN if you make more than you use, and IF they pay you for it. When that happens I agree grid tie would be nice, maybe even profitable too for some of us. If your using more power than the offgrid side can provide then you could still add a bigger genny anyway, you can use it.

"You put down the use of a gen-set, when really the little use of fossil fuels when the grid is down is not significant.  It doesn't take much power to keep a freezer going and some lights on.  Heat could be another matter."

It takes lots of fossil feuls, and creates allot of polution. If you are without power for 2 weeks (and it does happen to people at times) and your gennie uses 2 only gallons per day, that is 28 Gallons of feul! $2 per gallon is $56. Multiply that by 200 homes. 5,600 gallons of feul. Say, do you by any chance work for a fossil feul provider

 The thing about batteries and inverters is it's always online, if you need a light or computer at 2am you have it. In order to do the same with a gennie it also has to be online 24Hrs. Even if you only need 1 light, or power for the computer, it's eating feul.

"It doesn't take much power to keep a freezer going and some lights on."

So your saying you don't need Allot of batteries then, just a few?

"The fact is that net metering is here and it does change the equation concerning grid tie."

WRONG, not everyone has Net metering. Even for those that do, it's still the same equation. Can you power all your heaviest loads yourself or not. Gridtie is useful for things like running a 220V well for instance. I can power everything except the 220V stuff (only because I have not bought a 220V inveter yet). So for people like me, I could run the well, maybe electric hot water for alittle each day, maybe 5Kwhrs total and then giving it back over the course of the day and night as 120V with gridtie inverter I could break even back to 0Kwhrs. BUT still in order to do that you have to be able to make all the power your using! Most people cannot make that much power.

So if your still using 10Kwhrs a day your paying the grid for, plus used all the power you made, then gridtie did not benifit you yet. Each home or business is different, each needs to evaluate their own needs. If you have to power HEAVY loads from the grid, AND you make more power than you can use on the smaller loads, THEN you are giving back part of that grid power used for the heavy loads, Then gridtie is good.

"It will affect decisions concerning the size of wind system to install and how to set it up.  It should advance the use and design of wind powered systems, which should be to the good."

For some people it will, for others it will not. Again, it depends on your loads and what you can install for power making.  People living in apartments might be able to put solar pannels in windows but not have batteries in the living room??? If so gridtie would be better than nothing.

 People with smaller homes and yards may be able to put up 1 decent wind mill. It would still have to make all the power they can use total for gridtie to be better than a few batteries in the garage perhaps. Net metering has no effect, if they only have room for 1 mill that is all they can have.

 Me I could put up 12Acres of mills, it might make a difference to me then, but we don't have net metering here

"Here's a thought.  Suppose the electric car makes a come back due to improved batteries.  Such a vehicle would use considerable power, and would tie in nicely with a grid tie system, making even larger personal wind turbines practical and saving on fossil fuels.   "

 Questionable, you still have to make the power to give it back to the grid. IF your running an electric vehicle then you will need constant steady reliable power all the time of course, and that car is a heavy load that would probably be on grid.

So if you can make more power than your home uses, gridtie would be good for giving back part of the car charging power. BUT, if your home is still using more power than you can make yourself, then the car does not count for anything, it's just another grid powered load rather your gridtied or 2 seperate systems. It's just that much more power you are using that you cannot make for yourself.

Gridtie does have advantages for many people, I am just saying it is NOT the only choice. Far too many people think it is the only choice, I am just trying to say their are other options that are just as good, for many people even better.

I know from some of the people I talk to in person various places. People read those big fluff articles in magazines about some-one installing a $25,000-$30,000 power system that makes 1/3 of their needed power, and then those people say dang that ain't worth it and lose interest in the whole thing. I know this for a fact because people have told me all about how it costs too much and is not worthwhile, that they read some dumb articals in magazines. Then they don't beleave you can build a daul rotor gennie, buy a decent low cost inverter, and some batteries and make tons of power, for far less than $5,000. Oh if you could do that people would not be spending $25,000 for systems in magazine articals they say.

It's just all a matter of how much you want to spend and what your trying to do. There are as many options as there are types of houses, not everyone lives exactly the same or in the same type of house either, people need to know the options and decide whats best for themselfs.

[finnsawyer]

You don't seem to get the big picture.  Those people that put in the $25,000 wind power systems, if they were on the grid were probably getting 2-3 cents per kwh, and it sure as hell wasn't worth it.  At 8.5-20 cents it sure changes the equation.  Let's look at it a little differently.  Suppose the fellow making the Sun Ball solar system takes my idea and consolidates seven of the units into one, and he sells them for $5,000 American.  In the summer here with the long days lets say I get 500 kwhr per month when my power usage is 100 kwhr.  In the winter I get maybe 100 kwhr per month when I use 800 kwhr per month.  In the summer I basically bank the excess by putting it on the grid and then draw it back in the winter.  I still have a net usage off of the grid, but I'm paying less and have gained.  No matter how one does it they still have to pay for energy in one way or another. For the individual it's really a straight economic equation.  For the country, however, it may result in less use of fossil fuels.  Oh yeah, I could also level off my energy usage more with a wind power system as well.  The fact is that neither of these auxiliary power systems would provide all my needs all of the time.

I still take issue with your statement that two gallons of fossil fuel a day in an emergency situation is all that significant.  A gen-set would allow you to operate your water pump.  One doesn't need to operate the unit all of the time.  No, I don't work for a fossil fuel company.  The only fossil fuel I ever managed was wood off of my own woodlot.  By the way, do you know that Citgo is owned by Venezuela.  

[asheets]

I don't have my wife's permission to do anything that might confuse her.  I'm still getting complaints about the time I switched over to VoIP when I told Qwest to take their land-lines and go to hell.

[nothing to lose]

Yes I agree, if your making more power than you are using "Storing" the excess on grid for later use later in the year when you need more than you can make does work out good if you have net metering. Most people are not in that situation though I think. Also you need allot of differnce, not just 2Kw a day here and there in order for it to be worthwhile.

If you make 500kwhrs and use 600kwhrs, and durring the low time of production you make 300kwhrs and still use 600kwhrs, then you have not stored anything because your use always exceeds you abilty to produce it.

I think that is where most AVERAGE people sit and will stay sitting as long as they do have the grid. They will make less power than they use All the time, and that's where I am saying they might as well forget the grid tied expense and just use it themselfs as they make it. IF they have batteries. People on grid don't care about turning off lights, most still have 100watt light bulbs etc.. and probably will keep waisting power while they are on grid rather they make part of their power or not.

On the batteries, if people don't want them fine, do what they want, I don't care I don't work for Trojan. BUT, since the last posting I made here power has been out for me at least 4 times! Once it was out long enough that the battery went dead in the UPS that only powers the TV, VCR, DVD player (all were off) and digital clock. Not sure how long that was, at least 2 hours. The other times I saw were just off long enough to beep the UPS's and reset the kid's clock to 12:00. Great weather, a bit windy, gee I wonder how my power will be when it does get nasty outside? Right now I am setting batteries and 5K inverter up in old trailer house I will be using mostly for a shop. If/when power goes out I can just run a line to the inverter for what I want running in the house. I had it almost all setup here, then changed my mind and moved it again

"No matter how one does it they still have to pay for energy in one way or another. For the individual it's really a straight economic equation.  For the country, however, it may result in less use of fossil fuels.  Oh yeah, I could also level off my energy usage more with a wind power system as well.  The fact is that neither of these auxiliary power systems would provide all my needs all of the time."

For the country just the fact that homes go off grid even would result in less use of fossil fuels itself. Yes, many people including yourself will need power still from the grid, no question about that. The question is are the people using the power nearly as fast as they make it. Ok, at times your not using it that fast so for you storing the excess on grid with net metering makes sense. For other people that do use the power as fast or faster than they make it, then it does not make sense since they have nothing to store! We're not talking just about you, we are talking abut average people, many/most may only have a 50' yard, not a large farm or acerage like some of us. 1 Wind genny and a couple pannels on the roof may be all they can get by with. Certainly not much excess there for an average home near a big city.

Think of it as a bank account. Ok you work durring summer and make tons of money, you put that in the bank to save untill winter when you don't work and will need the money. That does makes sence.

 Now take a person that has $50 cash a day and spends $50 cash a day. Does it makes sense to go to the bank in the morning and deposite $50 cash, then go back at 3pm and withdraw $50 cash?? Do this everyday? No it does not make any sense to do that, just added expense running to the bank 2 times a day for nothing. I actaully knew people who did that, deposite money then take it right back out same day.  Now if you have checks to cash then a trip to the bank is needed maybe.

 So unless you are storing an excess for later use, banking what you have is a waisted trip.

"I still take issue with your statement that two gallons of fossil fuel a day in an emergency situation is all that significant.  A gen-set would allow you to operate your water pump.  One doesn't need to operate the unit all of the time."

You need to operate it all of the time you want any power at all, if you have no other power available. Ya, running it to just power a well pump to fill a 30gal barrel is not that much maybe, but you have no power any other time for anything!! If you want a light in the house, computer, TV, or whatever then you either run the genny or do without the power.

That's why I myself would not have an RE setup without batteries. I can run a genny all I want without investing in RE equipment already. I don't want to run a genny, polute the air, spend the money for feul, worry about the genny not starting, or breaking down when needed most. I don't want a genny running 24/7 on fossil feuls to power my fridge and computers. Between the wife, kid, me, there is seldom a time a computer is not on. With inverter and batteries I don't have to worry if the power is out for a day or so, or a few weeks, we still have the computers anytime we want them. That is not possible without batteries.

 I do have a genny now but don't plan to use it other than make sure it runs. Maybe start it once a month for 10 minutes or so.

Only have it because I took it as partial trade on a car I just sold.

2,500 watt genny, HALF the power of my 5K inverter.

Anyway, I think we about covered everything now. The only real import thing is for people to know there are options. Not everyone needs or wants the same things. There is allot to choose from and allot of ways to setup a system. What best fits the needs of the person or family using the system is the only thing actually important. That is not the same needs for everyone and no one choice is best for everyone.

Your gridtie without batteries is best for you, although you'll be sitting in the dark if the grid goes down. But you can store your excess for latter use if the grid is up.

 My off grid system with batteries is best for me, alough if I ever make more power than I can use or store in the batteries it will be wasted. I won't be in the dark in a power failure though nor will I ned to run a genny 24/7 to have power 24/7 for important items.

Most people probably fit somewhere in the middle between us more than matching us.

 You can be gridtied with or without batteries (if thats an option with your grid) or you can be off grid with part or all of your home if you have batteries.

 Then anyway you set up a system, you have to have some way to make your own power, or else there is no reason to have the system right. Well unless it's just a BIG backup system on batteries. With either gridtied or not you could still use the grid to charge batteries and have power later when the grid goes down.

 So it's just what best fits a persons needs and only they can figure that part out themselfs and only if they know there are options.

We don't all wear the same clothes or drive the same cars, we also don't all need the same power systems.

 Well I am probably out of here. Had some minor finishing to do on the video project, only reason I posted this one, waiting for the other computer to get done again. Should be working on a project, hopefully I can in about 30 minutes.

[finnsawyer]

Another factor that may be relevant to the grid tie question has to do with wasted or "dumped" power.  When the wind blows strongly the power going to the batteries can far exceed their capacity to absorb it.  There should be no such problem with the feeding of the power to the grid.  In other words, any reasonable sized wind power system will have times when its output exceeds what is being used on site.  It's another thing to consider.

[nothing to lose]

Well you might kinda have a point there in away.

BUT, most dumped power I think is dumped to something useful, so therefor it is not wasted. Heating water for instance. Ok so you use a gas water heater and you dump excess power to the grid, for what? So the neighbour can heat their water with an electric water heater? In the mean time your BUYING gas and burning it. You could be using the excess power to heat your own water and save the gas.

 Durring howling winter winds you could be heating your house with it.

 Set the dump load up to run an electric still, use the excess power to distill alcohol feul

 And again your figuring a system bigger than most people would have to make that much power to have enough excess to worry about.

Other side of it, without batteries when the grid is down not only do YOU not have power, but any and ALL power the wind genny or solar could be making at that time is wasted. Every bit of it, you can't feed a grid when it is not up!

Let's say a grid tie inverter is only $1,000 more than a non-grid tie inverter. To get back that $1,000 figuring dumping the excess back to the grid at a savings of $0.08 per kwhr you would have to dump 12,500 kwhrs of excess power. That would take over 520 days of making 1 kw excess power per hour. Now, how many years is that going to take? Well it better take a whole bunch of years or you lost it all and saved nothing instead. For net mettering to pay off you have to use what you store on the grid right, or you lose it after a year and they got it free. Maybe not everywhere, but I think at least 3 or 4 states that I have loooked at!

 So that means you have to have allot of time you are using more power than you are making, which means you are not dumping any excess to the grid durring that time. So if you dump excess power half the time and half the time you use what you have dumped then it will take at least 1040 days to get back that $1,000 and break even.

 MOST people will not be able to do that even.

And again, if they cannot meet their own power needs most of the time then that money would be far better spent putting up a better system that will make more power that they can use.

Some of us like you and I are maybe in a situation where we could make money with net meetering (which MO. does NOT have) if they paid us for our excess, or at least make most of our yearly power even if we store it on the grid durring winter and used it durring summer for a break even point. The average person is not going to be able to do that though.

People that use an average of 18kwhrs or more per day and can only make 12kwhrs per day maximum have no reason to be gridtied with net meetering if an inverter will power 12kwhrs of their daily usage since that is all they make.

So it still amounts to people need to know there are other options and make a decision based on their own situation.

[ghurd]

Only $1000 more for the grid intertie inverter?

Here at least the whole shebang will need done by a licensed electrician.

Inspections and forms.

Stray parts of the regular kind.

More stray parts that are already in the inverter, because the inspecter is going to want to 'see' them.

And more stray parts that are about pointless because the inspecter really has no idea what he is looking at.

Inspecters here are old electricians who have no idea what this stuff is or how it works.  Mentioned the idea of grid tie to an inspecter a couple counties away a few years ago... "Not gonna happen!" was the gist of his response.

The windmill blades might even need to be UL listed if it is going to be grid tie here!!!

CA is probably different, having those big rebates for so long.

G-

[finnsawyer]

NtoL seems to have an inability to equate money saved = money earned.  My original premise was that the net metering system would save $1200 per year.  That means his assumed added cost for the grid tie inverter would be paid back in less than a year.  My original premise also was that you saved (earned) ten percent of the cost per year so the system was paid for in ten years.  After that it's almost pure gravy.  As far as the added cost of permits and inspections, they must be figured into the cost equation.  If the state mandates net metering, the inspectors better learn it.  I was the building inspector here for a short time, so I know that the state will provide seminars to bring the inspectors up to speed.  I don't know whether this will come under a residential or commercial permit.  Probably commercial which means hiring an electrician.  8.5 to 12 cents per kwh is still a lot better than 2 to 3 cents.

[finnsawyer]

The strong dependence of power on wind velocity makes it extremely difficult to capture all of the excess power into a useful dump load.  You can add complexity adnauseam to try to put it to good use.  A grid tie inverter that feeds all of it to the grid would be a lot simpler.  As far as paying for the extra cost of the inverter figure $100 per month, as that is the value of the power you're selling to the grid.  That is, in ten months you have saved enough to cover the added cost (based on my original assumptions).

"People that use an average of 18kwhrs or more per day and can only make 12kwhrs per day maximum have no reason to be gridtied with net meetering if an inverter will power 12kwhrs of their daily usage since that is all they make."  Not true.  When I'm sleeping in the summer, my house uses almost no electricity, but the wind can still be blowing, which means power would be available to feed to the grid.  If, during the day, I'm cooking on my electric stove and using more power than the windmill (or solar panels) can provide, the excess is drawn from the grid.  The whole point in fact is to make sure the grid tie always ends up after 12 months to have fed less to the grid than you use from the grid.  Note that at any time, only the excess needed above what the home system provides is drawn from the grid.  If the home system produces more, then power is fed to the grid.  Perhaps this point was not clear.  The two systems work in lock step, not separately.

Well, I guess everyone will have to decide for themselves.  I do believe net metering will be a boost to the small side of the wind power industry.    

[ghurd]

I do know what you mean. 10% is 10%.

But this town is run totally by the unions.

I can not legally change a 2-wire light switch in my own home...

UNLESS I go to the city building, pay a $60 fee, to take a 100 question test that even covers 3-PH motor wiring.  (not saying that is an entirely bad idea because I've seen the stuff of horror movies)

If I pass the test, I can change switches and outlets in my own home for 2 (maybe only 1) years.

I still can't legally run a new 110V line 6' to the washer.

Then in 25 (or 13) months, when the vacum sweeper cord breaks an outlet, I have to pay, and take, and pass the test again.

Never asked what I have to do to legally change a P-trap!

G-

(I have some true inspection stories that would be cut from rants+opinions)

[nothing to lose]

"Only $1000 more for the grid intertie inverter?"

Well yes I am trying to keep it simple and easy to understand for the common folk not  familar with such things. TRUE, far more money normally involved!!! I think here we have to pay for lockout boxes for the power company to aprove grid tie also, so that's another equipment expense over the exra costs of everything else. Then all the other stuff you mention too.

 I was reffering to ONLY the price difference in grid tie or not grid tie inverters, not all the extras. Say like if I wanted to do "Gorrila Grid Tie" I would avoid the extra costs. Clintons policy is good enough for me, "Don't tell, Don't ask", and we can all be happy if I turn Gorrila

Since we DO NOT have true net metering here I have not looked into detailed costs for grid tie. Avoided costs are all we get credits for, and that right there tells me I will again as always get the wrong end from the power company in the deal.

 Even the goverment website says something like, " Reffered to as net metering but it's not, it's avoided costs" what ever that means money wise!

Now truethfully, if I were home steady and full time, I am pretty sure I would go Gorrila here myself

 Actaully I have already done some gorrila work

 Using wood gas from the charcoal maker I ran a home built gas genny on free fuel and over speed an AC motor which was first started running on grid power. This did work well for me:)

 I have tried a couple other things also.

 If I were home more I would be a gorrila and do that more often, but I am not here enough to make it worthwhile, either traveling, living at rock house, etc...

 Sometime in next few weeks or Jan. I will be going back to Canada

Well it's a currant plan anyway, just came up. I would be gone in a couple days if not for fixing a truck and Christmas comming so soon. Not sure over that one holiday if I am staying home or leaving yet.

 Also some of the things I do, often not spoken about allot, is one of the reasons I am reluctant to post too many pics that could identify my home. Nothing actually illegal, no drugs or such, but then questionable if I am not home and they harrass the wife. Like Alky fuel and stills, Gorrila grid tie, my electrical systems and codes, etc...

 Hmmm, they can have massive amps at 440Vac and higher at a fair grounds to run rides and general public tromping on cables weeks at a time, but not to code for me to run 120Vac at only 100 amps above ground in the middle of the woods where there is NO public! Get Real!!!

We have to read our own meters and figure our own bills. They read the meters about every 6 months or so to check up on us. I keep my place on prepay, paying 6 months in advance, sometimes a full year. The only time they read my meter themselfs is at the end of the prepay period when they are ready to send me a new prepay bill. Very easy for me to change that time to anytime I want. SO, I could prepay the last 3 months of winter and first 3 months of summer as 6 months, gorrila grid tie to average that out best I can. Last 3 months of summer and first 3 months of winter, average that out gorrila gridtied. We have better winds in winter than summer here. Spliting it that way then  I could get by as a Gorrila here and cut my bills and also help the neighbors. They are all electric, major bills and killing the power on this road. It was bad enough before they built here, but now even worse because of their heavy loads.

 So If I go gorrila, and I may, everyone bennifits in the long run.

But I don't think about only myself nor speak about only myself, I am thinking about normal average people and their abilities to produce power and the power they need.

 For most people, what I can do is not what they can do, what is best for me is not best for them, etc....

[nothing to lose]

"NtoL seems to have an inability to equate money saved = money earned. "

Not at all, I understand, respect, and use that basic concept all the time. However you forgot the other part, MONEY SPENT. That must fit into the equation somewhere also. If you have to spend money to save money, you have EARNED nothing untill you have saved back all of what you have to spent to begin with.

Let's say you could spend $100 for a device that saves you $1 per week on gasolene for your car. Well you have earned NOTHING with saved money untill you have saved back that $100 you spent. So that takes 100 weeks, about 2 years, but the device dies in 15 months, 60 weeks. Nothing Saved, nothing Earned, wasted money! The device did not last long enough to pay for itself let alone earn any savings so it was just an added expense. Ok maybe an expense that saved the world a little fossil feul and polution, but other things could do that even better and have a real payoff also.

Money Saved - money spent = money earned. If the money earned is a negative amount you lose!!

 Save $60 - $100 spent = -$40 earned Ok my phoney fuel saver example you lost $40, you did not earn $60 saved, and that's because you spent $100 to save that $60.

Hmmm, this is fun. By the time we ever actually end this debate I will have you convinced  gridtie is not worthwhile and you'll be selling your $2500 gridtie inverter on ebay hoping to get $1500 for it, and I will be the idiot that buys it for $3,500 because you convince me I need one

Just kidding of course.

As far as your comment here

" My original premise was that the net metering system would save $1200 per year.  That means his assumed added cost for the grid tie inverter would be paid back in less than a year."

That again is only figuring your own presumed power useage, where as I am more concerned with more average uses of regular average people. My power bill is NORMALLY only $600 per year. $12 per month is a meter charge and has nothing to do with power usage. $12 per month x 12 months = $144. Now $600 per year - $144 meter charge = $456 per year in actaul power usage. Just how is net metering or anything else going to save me $1200 per year when my bill is only $456 per year??? The $144 for a meter charge does not count for anything since I have to pay that net metering or not. So if I get to ZERO $$ bills per year it takes me almost 3 years to save $1200, and durring those 3 years I pay $432 in meter charges alone.

 Ok, When I lived in Wisconsin, pretty cold winters, lots of heavy snow. I had an all electric apartment I hated, 220v baseboard heat, 220V stove, 220V hot water tank, most my electric bill ever was $70. No meter charge. 12 x $70 = $840, again how can I save $1200 per year if the total bill is only $840 per year??? This was 2 adults 1 baby girl.

Anywhere I lived in Texas before Wisconsin, my elctric bill was even less. $70 in Wisconsin was my highest ever electric bill. Well, untill this year. I was off traveling the states and up in Canada this summer, the 6 month average was about $600 and I don't know how the hell that happened since only the wife was home by herself most of that time. I did do alot of battery charging at times off the grid to use at the rock house and portable use for a couple of months, but still that was nuts for a bill here.

[nothing to lose]

Hey Ghurd,

You want to Know how stupid Ohio really is in some of that codes and testing stuff?

 No-one get mad at me, I was born and raised in Ohio and have every right to say they are stupid up there, every where else in the USA too since I probably lived there also in the last 25 years!

When I was a kid my dad did Remodeling and new home construction work. Well he had to be licenced right? Ok he goes in to take the test and get everything legal for his business and they tell him they don't have a test for him to take

 Ya that's right, he has to take a test and get a lisence (so they can collect a fee)  but they never made up a test! So they gave him paper and pen said go make up 20 questions and answer them

 When he gave it back they asked him if they were all correct answers, he said he thought he might have got number 18 wrong (being sarcastic of course), he got a 95 on the test and his lisence. That is absolutely true, every word, no joke, I swear. Ok maybe he got number 15 wrong instead of 18, but still....

I think they still use that test today that he made up. That was sometime around late 60's or early 70's maybe. And you know where I am from Ghurd, kinda close by...

"totally by the unions"

Ya, it's got bad lot's of places. Unions and greed are why nothing is made in the USA anymore. I have friends that travel so called third world countries (I plan to soon also) and from what I hear things are actaully better in some of those so called under privalaged countries than they are here! Ya, that's right I like a true rustic life like the 1930's or so perhaps, and many of the countries are about that time frame compared to here wear we really F'd up in the last 70 years or so.

They don't earn much money in Vietnam per month by our standards here, but living seems to be as good or better really. Why else would friends pay $1200 round trip to fly over and stay 6 months every year (all that government aloughs). They love it there this time of year, living is super cheap, woman works and earns $50 (US) a month and they are upper middle class there. Some other countries about the same.

 Friend said last year he bought a brand new Honda motor cycle over there, Paid like $600 (US), hell I looked at a thing to small for my 14 yr old to ride here and it was like $2,000. Yep, You only earn $1 a day there but that $1 pays all your bills faster than $100 here does because everything costs less over there. $5 there is $500 here and after taxes not all that many people make more than $500 a week here. That is what unions and government greed gets us!

"I can not legally change a 2-wire light switch in my own home...

UNLESS I go to the city building, pay a $60 fee, to take a 100 question test that even covers 3-PH motor wiring. "

Well now you know why I never became an ASAE mechanic

 To much $#|+ that does not pertain to the work you will be doing anyway. At one time (before I got these senile spells) I could fix a car faster and better than any wet eared ASAE anytime. Too much garbage that does not aplie to the work intended.

 I have gone to places like Sears with "Certified"  (they should be) mechanics that installed 4 new tires, I got home feeling like I was driving on four flats, all 4 wheels the lugnuts were loose!! ASAE certified my A$$!!

 Had an old buick I loved to get inspected in TEXAS. The rubber bushings in the upper A arms had been really shot, someone replaced them but the holes were egg shaped, so the new bushings chewed out real fast too. NEVER EVER did an ASAE so called certified expert machanic ever figure out that one. Pass saftey inspection every time. Take it in to get front end alignment they never found it. Take car in and ask why does it clunk backing up when I stop or pull forward and stop, they could not find it. But YA, they passed the stupid test and were certified. Hell it did not take me 10 minutes to find it the day I bought the car!!  I just did not care about it, but any real shop mechanic should have found it if no other reason than to make money on a repair job.

[nothing to lose]

" As far as paying for the extra cost of the inverter figure $100 per month, as that is the value of the power you're selling to the grid.  That is, in ten months you have saved enough to cover the added cost (based on my original assumptions)."

That is one of the problems, your original assumptions does not figure that many people are never paying $100 a month to begin with, so if we are not paying that then we cannot save that!

"Not true.  When I'm sleeping in the summer, my house uses almost no electricity, but the wind can still be blowing, which means power would be available to feed to the grid.  If, during the day, I'm cooking on my electric stove and using more power than the windmill (or solar panels) can provide, the excess is drawn from the grid. "

For most people I think winter would be the ore windy tie than summer. And that is what batteries are for anyway, store the powr you make durrin gthe low use sleep hours and use it durring the highre use woken hours, and when grid is down also.

" The whole point in fact is to make sure the grid tie always ends up after 12 months to have fed less to the grid than you use from the grid.  Note that at any time, only the excess needed above what the home system provides is drawn from the grid.  If the home system produces more, then power is fed to the grid.  Perhaps this point was not clear.  The two systems work in lock step, not separately."

Well yes I geuss I agree on that. It's a matter of will you produce so much more than you use that storring it on the grid is worth the expense and trouble involved in doing so. For people with extra heavy loads like big welders, air compressors, lathes, etc.. it involves other thoughts also. Draw heavy loads over a short time from grid and replace over long time like a full day. This is a good use for gridtie  for certain people. It averages out that way.

"I do believe net metering will be a boost to the small side of the wind power industry."

Well yes, I do too if things get worked out properly. It has to be true net metering, and a fair price for excess power sent to the grid. The grid some where some how pays for the power they send us, rather from coal, hydro, or nueclear plants, the power the grid sells us is not free to the grid, they pay for it. So, why should extra power we send them be free? I mean power above our own needs that we never get back? We should get net metering and then if we send them more than we use get paid for that excess equal to what they pay other sources for power. And they also get a credit for RE which saves them even more money!

 True net metering could be a good thing for everyone, right now it probably in most cases is not for most people though. Some day??

[nothing to lose]

Sorry about all the typo's my eyes are video fried. After posting and reading that last one I think I missed half the keys and letters.

Time to sleep, good night all.

[ghurd]

"Unions"

The local grocery store chain was picketed for like 3 years by union people who didn't work there. Most of them car pooled from 40 miles away.

Then the last vote of 5 (?) and the store went union.

Employees were making a real living, like $10~15 / hour.

BUT, they were new to the union, and the UNION decided how much money they would be paid.

Everyone went to the stunning pay rate of $3.35 / hour. And the union took dues out of that.

And the new benifits were crap compared to the original benifits.

That was mid '80s. I was dating a girl that worked there at the time.