Author Topic: forget grid tie... how about some smart switching instead?  (Read 4996 times)

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asheets

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forget grid tie... how about some smart switching instead?
« on: November 18, 2005, 09:14:08 PM »
Ok, from reading here, it seems that grid tie is to problematic....  How about some sort of smart switching system instead?


What I'm thinking is having 2 setups:  one of them is the regular power grid and the other is the windgen/battery bank/inverter setup.  In between the two is "mystery box X", which then feeds into the house.


What I'm envisioning X doing is this:



  1. when loads are low and the battery is charged, then run the house off the inverter...
  2. when loads are low and the battery is discharged, run the house off the grid
  3. when the loads are high, run the house off the grid.


I understand that this is what most people are doing -- but from what I've read it seems to involve some manual switching (and thus the power goes off in the house for a few seconds).  I don't really want that to happen, if I can help it, for various reasons.  Does X exist commercially, or can it be homebrewed?



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« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 09:14:08 PM by (unknown) »

halfcrazy

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Re: forget grid tie...
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2005, 02:34:11 PM »
it almost seems that a outback inverter would do all you are asking of "box x

" i may be wrong but they will swicth to the grid at adjustable voltages and you can set it to switch to the grid based on load amps
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 02:34:11 PM by (unknown) »

crashk6

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Re: forget grid tie... how about some smart switch
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2005, 02:36:46 PM »
www.xantrex.com


You want the SW Series inverter/charger.

There are other companies that make similar units.

These have been around for a few years now... no multiple inverters.. no mystery box, just one convenient (and SAFE) device. But they don't come cheep, check eBay if your looking to buy. It should be considered an investment. On the up side it gives a return like any good investment should... (e.g. not keep taking your money) can't really say that about.... oh say.... your automobile!


Regards

--

crashK6

« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 02:36:46 PM by (unknown) »

henjulfox

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Re: forget grid tie... how about some smart switch
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 07:08:23 PM »
I too sing the paises of the Xantrex SW series. What you want is what I've got mine set up to do. What I really like is that it switches so fast that the you hardly see the lights flicker and the computer stays up and running.

As pointed out, they are expensive as heck...

-Henry
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 07:08:23 PM by (unknown) »

whatsnext

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Re: forget grid tie... how about some smart switch
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2005, 07:41:16 PM »
How about just figuring out your production capability and then applying just enough load to use it up? Start with your lighting circuits then add something else. If your system can't handle your lights there is no point in buying an expensive switch.

John...


/Spending money on grid tie baffles me.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 07:41:16 PM by (unknown) »

Clifford

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Re: forget grid tie how about some smart switching
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 11:13:11 PM »
Being off grid forces one to conserve LOTS of energy.


However, for a mixed system with batteries...


One could try 12V lighting first.


Then slowly add other things.


So far my experience is that inverters chew up a lot of energy.  Going 12V for things like lighting alleviates this and allows you to start small.  But, then you won't be able to switch between on grid and off grid lights.


Also keep in mind...  all utility companies charge about $10 / month as a connect fee.  For me, that was about half of my monthly electric bill.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 11:13:11 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: forget grid tie... how about some smart switch
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 11:42:27 PM »
 I agree with you on this matter in most cases. Maybe a few exceptions.


Why so much switching needed grid/off grid using expensive equipment?

I would try to best guess the loads and charging for the day. How much trouble is it to plug the vacume cleaner into the inverter if it has been a windy period, or into the grid if mostly calm low winds?


One very easy way to do that is put an outlet next to the breaker box connected to the inverter and another connected to the grid. If you have plenty of power plug a circuit into the inverter, if you are low remove it and plug into the grid outlet. Pretty simple, easy and cheap. Remove a line from the breaker box, put a plug on it, wire an outlet to the breaker you removed the wire from. You have the same thing when plugged into that outlet, but easy to plug into the inverter as wanted also.

 Need a couple outlets, some wire, and a heavy duty 110V plug. Maybe $10 tops?


Maybe use the circuit the coffee pot and  toaster are on. That will eat alot of your  power real quick for short times if you want, but be a heavy load easy to remove from the inverter also. Or use a line you don't care much about anyway, like half the lights in the house.


Really if you have to swap the plug out enough it's a problem then I think you'd be better off spending the extra money not on a switching sytem but on more batteries, solar, or wind gennies anyway and re-evaluate the system as a whole perhaps.


So I geuss the idea is when you wake up in the morning loo at the battery power, if you have alot make coffee and toast on the inverter, if you are low use the grid. In the evening same thing, vacume the carpet or wash clothes with the inverter if well charged or the grid if low. Balance the rest of the lighter loads on the inverter and grid, use a couple heavy loads to even things out as needed.


My problem is I am either all on grid or all off grid right now with two houses, I don't have the option of choosing which to use. Only which to stay at. That is ending though and I will be back into one house soon and the above is how I will again use my system. I have plugs and 2 breaker boxes ready to put the 5K inverter back in again.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 11:42:27 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: forget grid tie... how about some smart switch
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2005, 12:57:49 AM »
NTL;


That plug it in where you want it approach has worked great for me for years. Human powered, foolproof transfer switch. No way you can accidentally power the grid with your inverter and, as you said, dirt cheap.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 12:57:49 AM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2005, 02:03:01 AM »
Keep it simple Scott. KISS.

Since your grid tied, you should take advantage of it. Your paying for it:)

Big load always on grid, no switching.

Grid connected inverter with battery.

Since no big loads, a smaller inverter can be bought. 2Kw vs 10kw?

If battery is low, grid charges. No worries, nothing to think about when using an appliance.


I assume you have Net Metering? (check out http://www.dsireusa.org/index.cfm) Mich just added it. One meter, spins both ways. No real advantage to having battery expect for back up. This method has grid always on line so you do not need to do anything. Solar/wind etc. supplies power to spin meter backwards when it can.

This is the way most people use RE while remaining grid tied.

Check out www.homepower.com

If your state requires two meters and pays like 2 cents for your power then, you may want to use a battery. The battery is very costly, payback may be... life of the battery. The battery does give you backup power when grid is down. Choices, choices!

I have 8 golf cart batteries with 9kw UPS powering most of the house, No big loads. Only for back up. Do not like the noisy generators others are using.

Have 120w solar, not connected yet. Does not work with UPS.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 02:03:01 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2005, 07:50:21 AM »
Sorry scottsAI, I would not agree with that at all for most average people.

Could be good for a select few people though perhaps. Hopefully someday most/all states will get true net metering and just run meters backwards and also make it easy as just buy a gridtie inverter and plug it in. But for now I don't think that is the case many places.

 If I could do that here I probably would. But then I would make power other ways also like from waste heat or wood gas when making charcoal and such. So for me it might pay off faster too.


I agree KISS, but also CQD! CHEAP while still QUALITY and DEPENDABLE.

 People with bucks to spend on the best of everything don't care about cost or paybacks like those on a budget. People like that can pay a few grand for the best grid tied sinewave inveters etc... Most of us can't. And even with net metering then your payback will be far down the road, if ever.

 I think one of the reasons allot of people have no interest in RE is because the only ones they read about are people with unlimited funds that buy the best and they say "My god, I could never afford $10,000 to save $100 a month for grid power"! Then those same people argue with me that it is not worthwhile what I do here.

 They don't read that much about us do it ourselfers on a budget that do fine and fast paybacks. I think I already saved the cost of my $500 inverter and my used batteries, still have them so I am ahead of the game here. Course I am figuring gasolene savings also by not having to run a gennie for remote power. But just at the rock house I saved about $180 just by not paying a monthly meter charge there and keeping it off grid.


 If your not planing to get a profit selling it back, could just forget the grid tied and go for as much off grid as you can.

 Would be better to put all that extra money paid out for gridtie inverter into more OFF GRID ability, more power produced and more storage equals less grid used.

 Better for the environment too, making more power with RE using less dirty grid total.

In the long run your still paying for less grid (like running the meter backwards) because your not using it from the grid in the first place to have to replace it later. That's all your doing with net metering anyway unless your making extra and getting paid for it. You just use the grid for high loads and use lots of power at once, then slowly replace that power you used. Basically anyway, perhaps not exactly for everyone. I looked into this part since was thinking about power 220 loads from the grid like water well pump, water heater, air, etc.. and feed back the 110V with gridtie durring the day to even it out. Not worthwhile for me here though.


Figuring the price difference between my $500 5K modwave inverter that runs almost everything 110V here fine and a gridtie sinewave inverter, that is a ton of money I could use for  batteries and windgennies. Course you have to have some windgennie or solar power anyway or no point in getting the gridtie inverter in the first place right, so most of the extra cost can go to batteries.


I have not looked at the price of gridtied inverters for awhile I admit, but I think they were well over $2,000 (alot over). So for $1,000 I could have bought one of the daul rotor mills the guys were selling on EBay earlier this year/last year and $500 in batteries, plus paid for my 5K inverter I have now. At $70 for a 200amp 6V T105 thats 6 batteries storing 600amps of 12V power plus money left for cables. In comparision though for the same $2,000 for a gridtie inverter I would not even have a windgennie to power it. So figure you need the gennie either way and remove that $1,000 cost and you have $1,500 to spend on batteries now.


I'm not saying it's perfect for everyone of course, every person wants something different and that's fine.

 Myself I am looking for a good cheap Smart UPS of about 2,225watts or more for a sinewave inverter. Like a used APC 3000 series or bigger, they often sell used with shipping around $300 with new batteries, and have built in charger though I don't know how good. Only reason I am looking for one is I want more inverters for portable power like in trucks and vans.


If a person wanted a new 2000watt sinewave inverter and 100amp multistage charger then maybe $1,500 for this one is good?

http://donrowe.com/inverters/prosine_inverter_charger.html

Not gridtie for sell back though.


Myself I am looking to save the $1,200, install large external battery pack on the UPS, mostly use RE to charge the batteries. If needed I could plug it to the grid for battery charging also.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 07:50:21 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: forget grid tie... how about some smart switch
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2005, 08:11:42 AM »
And also anything you don't want bothered with interupted power can be left on one circuit all the time, either grid or inverter. Say like clocks, Tv, VCR etc.. that need reprogrammed everytime the power goes out. Most are low loads so could probably be left on the inverter at all times anyway and if the grid goes down you don't have to bother reprogramimg. If they work on the inverter, Digital alarm clocks I think are the only things not working well for me.


Just swap things that don't matter like toaster, vacume, deepfryer etc.. as you have extra power.


Even with grid tie and net metering, it's all the same power in KWhrs it only matters where it comes from as far as rather the inverter will handle the load or not really and if the grid is up or down :)

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 08:11:42 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2005, 09:21:22 AM »
Living in Michigan, I am interested in the program.  Since the user is paid for his power at retail rates, it does seem attractive.  This certainly is an incentive to get going.  One should not get too greedy, though, because of the 12 month limit on the life of the accumulated credit.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 09:21:22 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2005, 10:57:32 AM »
"Since the user is paid for his power at retail rates, it does seem attractive.  This certainly is an incentive to get going.  One should not get too greedy, though, because of the 12 month limit on the life of the accumulated credit."


Not sure how to read that, is that a loop hole where your not actually paid for it?


"12 month limit on the life of the accumulated credit"


Is that saying something like you have a credit to cover future use if you ever use more than you make?? But if you always make more than you use you lost out?

 Like a few of the Dan's mills and lake front property I would probably never use as much as I could make. So would they be buying the extra still but at reduced rates since I would never need theirs as far as using up credits?

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 10:57:32 AM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2005, 11:03:50 AM »
Hello finsawyer,

My read of the Michigan Net Metering:

You can spin back at retail, but only to how much you use.

Monthly any net reversal is carried froward to the next month. Each year any net reversal is owned by utility. You can't sell power to the utility, none. They get it for free.


If you generate more power than you need and want to get paid for it.  You will come under a different ruling, pay is like < 2 cents. Not interesting to me.


In states like TX, you have two meters. One direction each. Sell back is <2 cents, buy power is the usual 8+ cents. Using the grid is not as beneficial in TX, a battery may be better, system efficiencies will cut into the payback but 4x difference is large enough the battery may be the better way to go. (I only used TX because I recently read the rules while posting on another.)


Is this your understanding?

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 11:03:50 AM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2005, 12:21:23 PM »
Wow nothing to lose!

Where to start?

9 states without net metering laws. Which one do you live in?


I used the homepower link to show where I got my information. Most of the grid tied systems work as I outlined. A good sinewave inverter is not that much less than the grid tied inverter. The sunny boy 2.5k is listed at $1950, guess 1.8kw would be $1700?

http://www.scsolar.com/SMA_Sunnyboy.html#2500 sunnyboy string inverter


The  2000watt sinewave inverter is $1500. Considering the transfer switch and battery cost... what would you chose?


You make a good point about the mod sinewave inverter. The system cost with a transfer switch $250 at homedepot, add the charger cost... the required battery.

500 + 250 + 100 + 500 = $1350. This is a lower cost system. Requires user awareness in using it. My wife would have issues with it. She is not into RE. Just me.


Going back to the KISS and as you say CQD! CHEAP while still QUALITY and DEPENDABLE. (I like). Grid tie the big loads. Size the rest of the system based on the RE you do have along with the battery. This will eliminate the transfer switch. Remember you are grid tied, you have the meter charge to pay each moth. So use a little power for the big loads, remove the stress from your RE system, add reliability and reduce cost?

What you say?


Two years ago I was looking for a 5kw inverter, they were around $800 to $1k for 12v, more for 24v? I ended up with two 2/4k at $150/ship ea. This was for back up use only. Then I needed a transfer switch, some batteries, 220 for the well, needed a transformer to boost voltage, then a 100a charger ($75) etc. Not so cheap any more. I used my car battery during one power failure. Realized then I needed a better setup. Got it going, about half an hour later the power came back!!!


Realized a UPS, has all that for much less, switchs in 4ms automatically! YES!

Found on eBay an APC 3000/ship for $185, no batteries, sinewave output. Then another for $125, then 70, 70. All work.


I just bought 8 Crown CR-225 for $463 delivered. 10.8Kw-hr storage!

Cabling the batteries is expensive, looking around ~$12 ea, so bought 7/16 copper rod ($16/sh) to make bus bars. Looking for 2/0 wire yet, along with some 4 awg, already have the disconnects and fuses. My plan is to use 3 of the APC 3000 to run most of the house. After power fails, turn off two of the UPS. Rewiring the house so important loads are on 3 circuits. (lighting, ref, tv, well)


One down side to the UPS is the darn things beep, beep while running in backup. Need to remove it. Thanks it's been fun. Always something to learn!

Scott.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 12:21:23 PM by (unknown) »

jimjjnn

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2005, 07:03:29 PM »
most ups with beepers usually have a switch to turn the beeper off. There are many that dont. Open the case up and cut one of the wires to the beeper and your problem is solved. It will not affect any of the other circuitry.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 07:03:29 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2005, 08:01:59 PM »
I started to reply, just to make sure I looked it up again, found by pressing the test button while in back up the beeper stops. Can disable it with the software. Tested it. Worked! That is why I love this place, I know I looked it up before... Thank You!

Scott.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 08:01:59 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2005, 03:33:28 AM »
I'll check again for net metering here and what problems it is to set it up.

 Some states were calling something net metering for awhile, but it was not true net metering, it was like PAY 8 get back 3 cents per KWhr. Things change all the time, sometimes for the better. Also if you have to jump through Crap-op hoops to set it up and buy nutty expensive items not needed and pay buba with a screw driver for proffesional installs that can also make it not worhtwhile again.

 Now true net metering and a simple plug and play gridtie inverter I would be interested in amd be playing alot too :)


This is MO. buy the way.


I'm looking at the link ou gave, perhaps gridtied inverters are comming down in price since I last looked. $2,000 for a 2.5Kwhr is still expensive to me, but allot cheaper I think than when I last looked.


"2000watt sinewave inverter is $1500. ", that's what I was saying I would not pay that myself for just an inverter.


I never add the cost of the batteries myself when thinkng of various ways to go with inverters because I need the batteries no matter what I buy. Just like I need a wind gennie or solar to make power to sell back, I need batteries still for when the grid goes down so that I have power myself. So those are always a cost too me anyway, though I do buy scrap ones that work, so not really much cost.


Yes, if you keep the largest demand loads on the grid you could go with a smaller cheaper inverter. But then durring a power outage you will not be able to run those loads perhaps. Alot of it has to do with how you look at things I suppose, no one right answer for every situation.

 In away even, I geuss if your in a gridtie net metering even money area with clean reliable power you could actaully just run everything off the grid at all times and buy the inverter based on the max you can make and sell back, not on loads you need to run from it.

So for example if durring the 24 day you used 12kwhrs in 4 hrs time like 6-8 am and 8-10 pm the inverter would not need to be large enough to power those loads, only large enough to sell back 500watts per hour over 24hrs. Still used and sold back 12Kwhrs and broke even there.

 Could be a big savings on a small 500watt inverter for break even on grid usage, but if the grid goes down you can't power that 3kw per average durring those 4 hours either.


 Now you have me thinking alot here for myself! I have a 5K inverter to run all my needed 120V stuff already. OK, what is my 220V KWhr usage for the month?? I have to buy that from the grid. If I fall into that above 12KWhr or less example with 220V loads I could go off grid with everything 120V on the 5K inverter and use a 500watt gridtie inverter to sell back what I used at 220V. Provided I get the windgennies and wind to power everything, making charcoal and running a gas gennie on wood gas, etc..

 This I will have to look into more, thank you for getting me thinking about it :)


 I got into some of this back in the early 90's when I wanted power in a trailer house for a few items just a few weeks at a time a couple times a year. 300Watt or so inverter, couple batteries I charged when I needed to drive places, a home built lawnmower gennie and car alternator. Got the bug :)

 300watt inverter I think was around $60-$70 then.


 The power here is so crappy, went out long enough to beep the UPS's when typing this even, I have several hundred dollars just in UPS's here for computers, TV stuff, etc.. I did not know about the SMART UPS's when I bought all these I have so I bought what I could get at the stores. I wish I had known then what I know now!

 I haven't been finding any really cheap Smart 3000 ones lately. I blew it a couple years ago, I could have bought a MATRIX 5,000 working for $500 and no shipping, I was visiting Ohio then anyway and local pickup was fine. Passed on it, didn't know for sure I could use it. YES I CAN :(


Well I am looking into the net mettering for here when I get back to the link after I post this, and was looking at the Sunnyboys, question though are those running direct from solar pannels or can they be run off batteries and wind gennies. I am looking for others now that I thought abut the 5K for my loads and 500watt or so for sell back, see what I can find out :)

 Thanks

 

« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 03:33:28 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2005, 04:07:10 AM »
Ok, looks like mine is one of the screwed up states, MO.


" Missouri House Bill 1402, passed in 2002, provides for the interconnection of wind, biomass, fuel cell and photovoltaic systems up to 100 kW. Although the bill refers to this arrangement as "net metering," this is not actually the case. Rather, it is net billing: Any generation that that is fed back to the grid is credited on the next bill at the avoided cost rate, not the retail rate as in true net metering. Net excess generation at the end of the month is also credited at the avoided cost rate on the following month's bill. ?


I geuss this is the one I mentioned ealier, refferred to as net mettering but it's not.

Hmm would you like to buy a 2' tall 3' long sharped toothed killer hairy animal with a leather spiked colar and bobbed tail, I reffer to it as a kitty cat.

Here Dobie, whistle whistle


Avoided cost rate? Wonder how bad they shaft you on that part here.

Heres more bad news for us.


" A manual, utility-accessible and lockable disconnect switch is required.


 Applicants are responsible for all utility costs associated with the interconnection process including equipment and administrative costs. Administrative costs may include field investigation, engineering, legal, information, and negotiation discussions.  


 Applicants must verify at least $100,000 of liability coverage.  


 Applicants must indemnify the utility for all damages arising from the customer's system, except if damages are caused solely by the gross negligence or willful misconduct of the utility. (Such wording favors the utility.)  "


Oh well, it was worth thinking about.

 I am on the AR. Border and live over there, but that place I keep off grid. No real advantages there either, but I geuss it is maybe Real net metering till you break even. Although I would be paying $12 here or $15 there per month for a meter in the yard, I bet that is not covered in what I would sell back either.


"Residential renewable energy systems with a generating capacity of up to 25 kW and commercial systems up to 100 kW are eligible for net metering.....


In addition,  any excess generation will be credited to the utility at the end of the billing period without any compensation to the customer...... "


SO, back to just making my own and meeting my needs for awhile and not worry about sell backs still. Too bad, could have been a good thing.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 04:07:10 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2005, 08:56:21 AM »
Pretty much that's it.  I'm not sure if that's an absolute 12 months or a sliding 12 months (they compute the net usage on the anniversary date of your entering the program versus adding up your net usage for the preceding 12 months every month).  The power companies have no intention of losing out.  The point is to size your system according to your average yearly power usage.  That could be tricky.  There are other restrictions of course.  Still, in effect, getting 8+ cents a kwr for your generated power (rather than 2 cents) could justify the investment in grid tie equipment.  Some of that cost is offset by not needing to buy batteries.  In my view, if you could save $100.00 a month, on average, that would justify investing up to $12,000.00 in a wind power system.  Others with a better handle on it might disagree or might find my numbers unrealistic.


Oh yeah, you should also save on taxes.  Oh, yeah?  

« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 08:56:21 AM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2005, 07:11:38 PM »
I imagine you have done all your electrical work without permits...:)

Well you could always do what is referred to as gorilla net metering.

Just do it without asking, called don't ask, don't tell:)

Put a motion sensor by the meter, stop reverse when detected...

Have fun,

Scott.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 07:11:38 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2005, 06:04:35 AM »
"I imagine you have done all your electrical work without permits...:)"


They don't issue permits for the stuff I do :)


Ya, gorrila net metering works when you have meters that will spin backwards. I hear some don't though, worm drive or something as I recall. And not sure how Smart metering is going to effect Gorila tactics for those that have it. I mean if they will be tracking usage for various hours like peaks and chargeing more for that, I wonder how that is going to work if your meter starts going backwards a few days a month, or hours a day? Probably no problem if still turning forward but slower, it's the reverseing feature I wonder about.


I don't have to worry about any of that here, there is nothing SMART about our local crap-op. Not even the engineers, put a guy line 1' from the dirt road in a turn instead of back bracing the pole as they should have.


"called don't ask, don't tell:)"


Good enough for a president, good enough for me :)


"Put a motion sensor by the meter, stop reverse when detected..."


Would work I guess, but we have to read our own meter here and figure out our own bills, they check about 1 time every 6 months or so to be sure people don't cheat.

 Hmm, I wonder if they go to smart meter charging here if we will be required to read the meter 2 times a day and mark that down, once before peak starts and once when it's over each day and figure that out ourselfs too :o


I beter not speak too loud, they may hear and actaully want to try that :(

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 06:04:35 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2005, 12:22:07 PM »
"Still, in effect, getting 8+ cents a kwr for your generated power (rather than 2 cents) could justify the investment in grid tie equipment.  Some of that cost is offset by not needing to buy batteries.  In my view, if you could save $100.00 a month, on average, that would justify investing up to $12,000.00 in a wind power system."


Well the way I see it you are not getting 8+ cents a kwhr at all. The only thing you are getting is your own FREE power that you made for yourself. You are not getting paid anything for it, you just don't have to pay someone else for it. Use it before sending it to the grid and you have the same thing.


 You could do that without the grid tie. And if you could get off grid totally save the meter charges too. Even if you broke even on Kwhrs per month for the year, what is the charge for a meter in the yard, here it is $12 and $15 per month, MO. or AR. So lets say I provide 100% of my power averaged over a year and had true net metering, I would be paying $144 or $180 a year to the grid for basically nothing. And without batteries I have no power if the grid goes down?? That does not sound good to me at all.

 The only advantage would be powering very large loads on the grid for short periods and slowly replacing the power used over time to get back to even (0 kwhr).


Not needing to buy batteries does not actaully make much sense to me. I don't know of any part of the USA that has NOT had power outages. Winter in the north knocks power out, ice storms in the mid and south, fires in the west, huricanes on the coasts, tornados. Lets not even mention California, or NEW YORK, aren't there alot of brown outs in some places. What about that wrong power switch that got flipped a few years back, I think that's what happened. New York to Wisconsin I think, no power! If it ain't happened to you yet your lucky. How long before the next time and who will the next outage effect?


We all have our own ideas and that's good too. Personally I would feel pretty stupid though if a friend called me up asking why he hadn't seen me online for 3 days, and I had to say "My $12,000 power system is not working because the grid is down and I did not buy batteries". Would make me kinda mad also tossing out alot of spoiled food cause the freezer and frig were down a week in summer, that costs money too.

 But that's just me. I have batteries and inverters, but not a good gennie flying right now, I would if I was home more.  


Now my idea is a bit opposite I guess, make and use my own power, and if needed use the grid for charging my batteries ocasionally till I can get off grid totally. No expensive switches or gridtie needed. Helps me see how my system is holding up also.

 How close could I be to off grid, what do I still need etc...


If I had true Net Metering here to cover my useage, and they paid a fair amount for any excess I sent them, then it would be worthwhile maybe for the extra gridtie expense. Or if I needed to run heavy loads on the grid and got Net Metering while giving back the power I used it might be worthwhile also.

 Till that comes along though, Smart UPS for a sinewave inverter, large Modwave inverter, batteries, and a couple good wind gennies are my goals. Far less than $5,000 as I have it figured.


I want off grid till they pay us for excess power same as they pay elsewhere. Where did this idea they should get it free come from anyway?? What else do they get free and what do we get free?? So why should they get our excess free??


We should not have to pay anything for using our own power to begin with, and they should be paying the same amount to us per KWHR for our excess that they pay to some major producer elsewhere. I know my local Crap-op does not make the power they sell me, they buy it. So if they bought from locals like a farmers market we would keep the money in our own area, better economy here, most likely have more reliable power,

less losses, and many other benifits too.


 True net metering and pay fair for the excess and you would see windgennies going up in cattle fields all over this area :)

That would be allot of clean power getting rid of equal amount of dirty power.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 12:22:07 PM by (unknown) »

niffa

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2005, 01:58:01 PM »
Hi,

Would one or two of the people on this board who are living off grid clarify a few things for me, and maybe others?


Can you run you're RE system for a year with no power outages at all?


Do you use all (or most) of the conveniences of modern living i.e. dishwasher, arc welder etc?


I have a huge respect for those of you who for reasons of location, cost or philosophy chose to live totally off grid but that is not always the best solution to a persons or indeed the countries energy needs. The costs of a grid connected inverter is not that high once you deduct the cost of buying and maintaining a battery bank and the amount of energy that modest grid connected systems sell to the utility is so small the price paid by the utility is of little consequence.

I see the benefit to a grid-connected system (if your location allows) as permitting you to contribute to your own energy needs with out restricting your family to the limits imposed by inverter and battery bank size.


I enjoy this board daily and have gained a huge amount of knowledge from you all thank you for past and future enlightenment.


Phil

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 01:58:01 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2005, 03:46:54 PM »
My house is totally ON-grid except for camera batteries, cordless tools, my cell phones, and a couple odds and ends. The shop is totally off-grid but there isn't much power needed there.

That said, there are a lot of ways to do things without electric.  It often makes more sense.


Washing machine.




Coal water heater. Storage tank is a gas waster heater without any gas.




Other big things like welders are probably best left to generators, at least at the beginning.


G-

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 03:46:54 PM by (unknown) »
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ghurd

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2005, 03:48:02 PM »
Dang. 1 more try for the washer.



« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 03:48:02 PM by (unknown) »
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nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2005, 05:13:47 PM »
When I started typing this I thought that was AZ, but now I see it's NZ instead.

Below are my thoughts based on USA on grid/off grid as I see it, and only my opions and such, based on personal experience where applicable.


"Can you run you're RE system for a year with no power outages at all? "


I can't live a year on grid here without a power outage, so that question I don't understand myself :)

 I dought I ever lived anywhere in the USA that the power did not go off at least once in a year. Even simple things like cars hitting power poles, or lighting struck the pole at my mothers house a few years ago. 2 days before she got power agian, was about a week for some people. Big city areas, big storm!!

 I think maybe the grid has gone 3-4 months without an outage here perhaps. Thats if you don't count the little ones that make digital clocks flash and just beep the UPS once or twice then powers right back on. Not long ago we lost power for hours, they claimed it was a racoon that got into a sub station. 3 days without power once because of ice storm. This is ON GRID... See why I want OFF GRID myself :)


 In the about last 2 months the traffic light and stores in one part of town was without power 2 times. The other part of town not long ago was also without power for a bit. I did not go into homes in those areas at those times, but pretty darned sure they had no power also :)

 So around this area off grid people would be more likely to have power more often than on grid people. This is not really a remote area, just a bit rural.

 Most off grid people do have a generator or some type of backup power if needed. Still on grid with this house, but I have a generator too.


"Do you use all (or most) of the conveniences of modern living i.e. dishwasher, arc welder etc?"


It would all depend on the system and RE available. Basically there is no reason you can't do anything a grid powered home can do. It takes a way of making the power, if you have poor winds, no good stream, and solar panels are very costly so probably not enough of those, then you'd be limited far more than people who have plenty of wind, or water for hydro.

 If you have the money to spend and decent winds you could build a system to power a grocery store. Most people are on a budget and don't have that kind of money though.


It's cheaper to conserve power and use it wisely than to install allot more equipment, but you can do anything you can afford if you want to spend the money.

 You don't have to change your life style, but adapting a little is good.

Using power as you make it is good too. When you have plenty of wind and batteries are near full charge it is a good time to run heaver loads. If poor winds for a few days you might want to wash clothes you need today, but wait for extra loads not needed right away till tommorow, no big deal. More batteries you have the more power you can store durring good high power times and the longer you can go without making power like low wind periods.


I have ran my lathe and milling machine on my inverter and batteries just fine several times and also my wire feed welder. Other more normal tools like saws and drills no problem of course. You can get 220V inverters also if you want them.


As far as dishwasher, you can if you want, but this house is on grid and does not have one anyway.


 I kept the other house I rented off grid, lived on my batteries and inverters there. Since I did not own the place I could not put up a good wind gennie and had to use odd ways to charge batteries. Still did everything I wanted, ran the lathe welded etc.. No problems except I had lots of wind but no windmill flying :(


 I also respect those that for whatever reason would not want to be totaly off grid.


But the problem with the counties energy needs is waste, plain and simple. All the devices sold that use power when turned off? Ya, right now my scanner has the light on, WHY I don't want to use it! All this stuff with transformers that eat power while plugged in, even if the device they are for is disconnected. Scanners, printers, speakers, TV, VCR, and 500 more common items I could list.

 People are too lazy to manually turn on a fan or airconditionare, they now come with remote controls, they eat power while turned off waiting to see if you use the remote to turn them on.

 Manufactors claim only uses a tiny amount of power, multiply that by at least 40 for the devices in just my home alone, then by how many millions of homes, and offices!!! All that wasted power used for items that are turned off! How many people use 100watt light bulbs, then DON'T turn out lights when not in use?? Too lazy to fix the drip for the hot water facet, use an electric water tank?

 That's the kind of stuff that's a major part of the problem. Waste!!


"The costs of a grid connected inverter is not that high once you deduct the cost of buying and maintaining a battery bank"


 Depends what you buy for an inverter. $1,500 difference buys alot of batteries.

 If you don't buy batteries what did you spend that money on, simply the ability to use your own power ONLY if the grid is working. Any power you could have made while the grid is down is simply gone, never used, your equipment was useless at that time and served no purpose at all other than to look at.


Eliminate that cost and when the grid goes down so do you, and if it's down a few days then figure the cost of the food you have to throw away also. If you work at home figure in the money you lost in income while the grid was down. Perhaps that does not matter to everyone, many homes have no backup power of anytype anyway. But if your going to pay thoughsands of dollars for a system to make power then why sit in the dark waiting for it to come on sometime just because for some unknown reason the grid is down. In the last 4 years about everyone I know all over the country has at sometime been without power for some reason for a day or more, some for nearly a week or more in winter and nearly froze. Could not even run their electric can openers so they could eat, had to figure out other ways to open cans even. New Orleans area I think had a bit of grid problems too did they not?? So think of the people sitting around there in their homes, nice power system costing tons of money, no batteries, no grid, no power. Natural disasters happen anywhere anytime, and it seems in the last 2 years we have had more than a normal amount also world wide. Many power grids have been down for many reasons.


 "and the amount of energy that modest grid connected systems sell to the utility is so small the price paid by the utility is of little consequence."


Many times that is only because there is no money to be made selling power to the grid. Many places have plenty of wind often enough to make allot of sellable power. People with plenty of land in those areas have no reason to put up more windgennies than they can use themselfs, they can't sell the power for profit, so why bother.

 I can put up one maybe two and meet all my needs, why put up more than I need?

 I have been watching the winds here alot, I have enough land to put up many small gennies like the dans build. At least half the year I am sure I have the winds I could be selling a decent amount of power. This may not be a good area for a power grids terawatt wind farm, but 14' daul rotors would be doing very well. I could put up a dozen or more. So be realistic somewhat, $0.05 her KWHR X 12 gennies = $0.60hr X 24hrs= $14.40 a day X 30 days = $432 per month. Certainly I won't get 1kwhr from each gennie every hour, sometimes I will get more, allot of times I'll get less. So if I got less than 1/4 the posible power it's still near $100 a month I could be making. Some months it's very windy and I'd make alot more than others but it averages out fairly well around here I think, so I could stand to make about $1,200 a year perhaps. That's only 1 gennie per acre. How many could I actually fly if I wanted to and was being paid for them? 3 per acre?? 4?

 So what people do now and what we would do if we had a good reason are two different things. If I was getting paid for my power I would be putting up mills and expanding. It would cost me maybe $1,000 per mill to build and raise them. Probably allot less,  buying in volume for parts, pipes etc... So I am looking at around a 10 year or so payback. But since there is nowhere to sell this power, there is no reason to spend the money to make the power either. So everyone looses, clean power is not made, dirty power gets dirtier. They want to get free power from us, then take the tax breaks for RE energy they get for selling our power also.


"I see the benefit to a grid-connected system (if your location allows) as permitting you to contribute to your own energy needs with out restricting your family to the limits imposed by inverter and battery bank size."


 No reason it has to be connected to the grid for that. Build your system and use batteries, run what you can on your system and everything else you run on the grid power. You always have power and your family never does without, even when no grid.

What you save by NOT buying a gridtie inverter will buy batteries. Then you do not limit your family to having power only if the grid is working. You can spend a few days watching TV while the neighbors are sitting in the dark watching thier food spoil. If the grid never goes down, well good, unlikely but good, and your still making your own power and using it too, less polution to harm the environment and all that good stuff.

 If a terrorist attack or earthquake or toranado or Tsunami takes out the grid, you can watch it all on TV and tell your friends about it latter when they come by and ask how come you still have lights when no-one else does.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 05:13:47 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2005, 05:30:32 PM »
Hey G

Didn't know you had 2 of those heaters, want to sell one :)


Ha ha.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 05:30:32 PM by (unknown) »

niffa

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2005, 08:14:30 PM »


I see a benefit in remaining grid connected and also see the advantages of not being so.

Your system of on grid home and off grid work shop must work for you and I am sure I could make use of such a system. How ever I still have not herd an argument to talk me out of grid conection in my situation.


Thanks for the detailed reply I agree with most of your post.


Cheers

Phil

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 08:14:30 PM by (unknown) »

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2005, 05:40:21 AM »
I respect everyones opion and not trying to talk anyone into or out of anything really. Sometimes maybe it seems that way, but I get tied up near the computer doing other things, I type a bit, do stuff, type a bit. I don't really just do this all day and night :)


Yes for some people maybe grid tie and no batteries might be worthwhile. If that's what a person wants, go for it. I only try to point out the other side of it also.

 And of course no reason you can't go gridtie now and add batteries later also if you  change your mind, as long as the inverter will work on batteries. Some solar gridties I think only work directly off the pannels, no battery connections. But if you have battery connections then you have options.


The only thing is the gridtie inverters cost allot more. Money you have to spend if you don't want batteries, money saved if your going to have batteries anyway. There are many cheaper options for inverters that are High quality but not grid tied. Not for everyone, but they are there for those of us that want them :)

 $1500 (or more) savings for me since I want my batteries!


So really I geuss the biggest questions a person has to answer for their own situation is, How reliable is the power grid in my area, and do I want power when the grid goes down. Those answers are what determine rather a person should by batteries I geuss.

 If your grid never goes down or has any problems, I suppose you don't need batteries. If you don't care about being without power for days or weeks durring/after a major storm, then you don't need batteries. Just sit in the dark with no TV. I do that when I go camping so it's not all that bad really anyway :)


 If you don't have true Net metering, another question then, will you make power at the same times as your using it? Using alot of power durring the day and running the meter forward, then giving back power at night for free (without turning a meter backwards) would simply not be smart at all of course.

 No return on your investment, no back up power :(

 Might as well just buy a more efficeint car that polutes less if all you want to do is clean the environment.


I know some people for instance that could make lots of power and really reduce their bills. They have medical stuff of some type they have to run and could not maintain a system of batteries themselfs etc.. But their grown kids could put them up a couple wind gennies.

 Because of the health problems they have all electric home, can't have propane or wood heat. With their home on a hill, good winds, gridtie would save them a ton of money if they had net metering. Without Net meetering though they could only save a little. Again if they could use batteries though they would save a ton using their power themselfs even without Net metering.


Yes, my OFF GRID was a full 2 story home AND shop basically. A place I was renting for awhile. My only 2 problems there with power were both because I did not own the place.

I could not put up a wind gennie even though I had really good winds. So I had to go to allot of trouble doing odd things to keep the batteries charged. Not needed if I would have been making power with RE. The other problem not owning the house was I did not mess with the bad wiring in it. I just connected to the house the same as the grid would basically, main feed lines from outside. Was a 220V breaker box in the other building, I wired 110V to both sides and was all set. That's all the grid does here is 2 110V legs, but theirs add up to 220V and when I do the same thing I still have 110V since I am just using the same leg twice. Inverter only has one leg.

Only 220V item I should have had was the well pump anyway, but I got around that also easily with other means. I could have easily bought a 220V inverter to power that pump, just did not want too.


So I had a fully working home, TV, VCR, DVD, Stereo's, Computer, Frig, fans, Ect.. Everything the on grid home has. Also My little shop of tools, Lathe, mill, drill press, wire welder, grinder, sawzall etc... I didn't need the tools allot, large hobby shop, but when I wanted them I had them working fine, no problem.


 It was a pretty nice setup, I liked it, without a wind gennie though it took alot of work for me to keep batteries charged. I use allot of portable power also like in the woods, so I carry batteries in my truck for portable use anyway. I charge those while driving, at the house then I used another inverter and large battery charger to recharge the house batteries often. Also made my own 12V generator from a car alternator and large riding mower, seldom needed to use it but I had it in case anyway. Then If needed I could always charge up batteries from the grid here at this house while here also. I did have a couple small gennies flying here that when I left the truck for a weekend or so I connected to them for RE charging.

 Nice thing was, when power went out in the area, I still had mine.


 The batteries were not the problem, the problem was not having anyway to make power at the house. Batteries or not, with gridtie you have to have a way of making the power, and that was the missing part of my system :(


 So even though I was not actaully on RE power, I was TRUELY off grid at that house.

I am working on setting this place up different again now also since I will be here more for awhile.


Wife can have the grid when I'm gone if she wants. BUT, I demand good clean steady reliable power in my home, and the grid here simply does not provide that!

« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 05:40:21 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: Grid tied is grid tied. Forget switching.
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2005, 09:12:14 AM »
I guess it depends on how you want to live.  If I need to do some welding on a piece of haying equipment in July, I can't afford to wait five days for the wind to start blowing.  We have good winds in the winter, not so good in the summer.  The 12 month averaging means that the grid becomes a super battery of essentially infinite capacity.  You can't over charge it for even five minutes.  With any system one has the issue of rate of return.  What is the value of the power generated per year divided by the investment?  In my example I chose 10%, which may or may not be attainable.  But it's what I would shoot for.  Keep in mind that dollars are interchangeable.  The $1,200 per year that is saved shows up as real money in the pocket or bank account.  I'm looking at this from a rational investment point of view.  Apparently you're looking at it from an emotional point of view, due to the issue of power outages.  Again, there are ways to deal with that; a generator set, for example.  Or batteries.  


I suppose one should also consider the effect large scale use of net metering would have on the use of fossil fuels.  If the rate of return is sufficient many people who would not otherwise consider generating their own power, would be persuaded to do so.  It seems that this ties in directly with what many of the users of this site would like to see.  I think net metering is a step in the right direction.  Time will tell.    

« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 09:12:14 AM by (unknown) »

asheets

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Re: forget grid tie... how about some smart switch
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2005, 11:55:21 AM »
It works for you, and would probably work for me... but somehow I doubt it would work for my wife and kids...  Whatever solution I come up with has to be seemless and transparent...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 11:55:21 AM by (unknown) »

asheets

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followup
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2005, 12:03:24 PM »
I apologize....  I had no idea that what I thought was a simple question would set off a debate like this...


Here's what I got...  I live in Colorado, so getting an approved grid tie setup (where I can match frequencies and spin the meter backwards) is probably out of the question.  


If it were just me alone, I'd rig half the outlets to RE and the other half to the grid.  However, I want this solution to be seemless for the wife and kids (they can plug their stuff in anywhere they want at any time.  I was thinking that some sort of dynamic switching solution might be the thing... but now that I think about it it seems that probably the easiest (although not cheapest, most efficent, or best) solution would be to run the household completely off of batteries and let either RE or the grid recharge the bank (depending on ambient conditions.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 12:03:24 PM by (unknown) »