Author Topic: Want to see an ugly sine wave?  (Read 3775 times)

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Volvo farmer

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Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« on: December 14, 2006, 12:25:15 AM »
Hehe, here's some pictures for your perusal. If anyone (Flux?) has an explanation as to why this happens, I'd love to hear it. I'm assuming a inverter-based battery charger has a poor PF? Do you think this is an inherent problem with my battery charger or could the generator be causing this? The genny is wired for single phase and is rated at 4500W, I'm at less than half it's rated load.


Inverter wave




Generator unloaded




Generator loaded with a 1500W space heater with a little fan in it.




Charging batteries at about 12AAC




Wait, it gets worse! Charging batteries at about 18AAC.


« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 12:25:15 AM by (unknown) »
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RUFUS

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 05:48:40 PM »
I'm no sine wave expert but i beleve your ossisliscope may have another setting to strech out the raster, to show the individual waveforms for each device, what i see is 5 or 6 devices superimposed on each other, is there a time setting you could switch to? Its been years since i fooled with one but i think thats whats happening,

just what i was thinking,

good luck have fun


                                                     RUF

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 05:48:40 PM by (unknown) »

wpowokal

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2006, 06:33:43 PM »
Flux will give you the technical answer, I'm too lazy but not an unexpected waveform. Turn the CRO off and carry on, some things are best not known.


allan down under

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 06:33:43 PM by (unknown) »
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TAH

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 06:37:23 PM »
That is only one cycle so changing the scope won't help much. You could probably focus it a little but that will make it look worse. You are probably getting that for a waveform. I haven't ever bothered to look at my generator output with a scope but judging by the effect on some electronics in the house when I am charging over 8KWs the waveform is probably not pretty. Is your generator 4.5 kW max or continuous? You could look at the current waveform by using a section of your charge cable as a shunt and setting the scope low enough to get a reading.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 06:37:23 PM by (unknown) »

RC in FL

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2006, 06:48:51 PM »
This is common for many generators.


Two things contribute to this ugly waveform.


First the generator field regulator may be relatively crude reacting slow to instanteous current changes. A generator with an electronic regulator for output voltage control will do better.  


The Outback charging profile and inductive loading will drive the generator crazy.


Lastly, consider yourself lucky the Outback unit even latched onto the generator at all.  The Outback units are very picky about the AC input frequency.  The unit's manual states they do not claim to be compatible with a generator providing the AC input for charging batteries.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 06:48:51 PM by (unknown) »

Volvo farmer

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 07:47:12 PM »
Huh? Where in the manual does it say that? I've got it right here on my desk. There's a whole Mate Sub-menu for generator controls, specifically for the FX battery charger. Why in the world would they program this inverter with changeable generator parameters if it wasn't meant to be used with a generator?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 07:47:12 PM by (unknown) »
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jimjjnn

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 08:37:41 PM »
Does your Generator have brushes or is it an Alternator?

To me, that looks like brush bouncing or arcing.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 08:37:41 PM by (unknown) »

boB

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2006, 08:38:57 PM »


If you want to see (probably) even a worse waveform, you might try

viewing the AC current.  Generators, in general, make HORRIBLE  waveforms.


If you're charging a battery, there is no, or little current draw

until the transformer turns ratio lets the voltage on the DC battery side

get above the battery voltage.  Then current start to flow.


On the light load, it looks kinda like a bit of phase shift ??


The FX is not power factor corrected BTW.  It's the GFX, or grid-tie

FX inverter that does not work with generators.


I'm not sure why consumer generators don't look very good, but this one

is pretty typical however I have seen much worse, especially at

no load or at light loads.


Maybe all those wiggles are from the combination of the different poles

of the generator ?


boB

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 08:38:57 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2006, 09:00:51 PM »
The problem is common with small generators when feeding NON-PFC corrected chargers.


The reason for it is that the generator may be using a capacitor for biasing the generator with saturated magnetic regulation and if the current peaks are a bit above the rated values the generator high winding resistance starts to show the current peaks.


On the first unloaded photograph, one can observe a distortion in the sine wave, such distortion is due to the phase angle of the biasing capacitor and winding inductance.

This distortion can be reduced if capacitors are paralleled with the charger.


You need around 50 to 70 microfarads ( 370 Volts AC ).


Nando

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 09:00:51 PM by (unknown) »

Volvo farmer

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 09:51:44 PM »
Hey boB, Don't go away quite yet. I was over at Robin's Website for about an hour today looking around. What do you know about these Magnum inverters? They are supposedly PF corrected. I kinda want to be able to use electronic devices in my house while I'm charging batteries, that washer control board cost me $120 and I get 'em at wholesale. Would this waveform distortion be improved with a PF corrected charger?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 09:51:44 PM by (unknown) »
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Volvo farmer

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 10:07:37 PM »
Dangit, no edit button.


This is not exactly a consumer generator. It's basically an Onan Emerald (commercial 4500) I think they run in the $2500 range new. 1800 RPM, air cooled, on LP gas.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 10:07:37 PM by (unknown) »
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DanG

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2006, 10:07:42 PM »
Use the scope to record the true peak output voltage on your generator when you are putting the 18A AC (2100w)into the batteries...


My trace manual sitting here graphs out the performance of its battery charger section to demonstrate the effect peak AC voltage has upon DC output - I am reading in between the lines a bit but it looks like it is purely the generators fault.


If the charging section is supplied with 170V peak voltage the available charge rate at 15volt DC would be 90A; 160V peak AC equals 62A; 150VAC peak results in 40A. Traces explanation is the charging section uses only the top portion of input sine wave so small peak voltage variations result in large variations of "the amount of the waveform that the charger has to work with."


US public power of 117V has a peak voltage of 164V & Trace maintains it takes a high quality generator to provide a standard peak voltage while under load. If the AC input voltages are not meeting peak VAC the outback requires then the entire waveform collapses from trying to supply the outbacks high amp DC output.


I'd love to see the sine trace from a true-sine inverter generator into your outback under those same loads - I have a Kipor 2600W inverter generator (unknown true peak voltage) and an o-scope and a nice trace 2500W inverter but none of it is near each other ATM; if I get the time I will try it myself and post a picture...

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 10:07:42 PM by (unknown) »

boB

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2006, 01:27:28 AM »


Hey Volvo...

Yes, I almost forgot.  ALL Magnum inverters' chargers are REAL PFC chargers.

Even the ones in their modified squarewave inverters.


The MS4024 4000Watt/24 Volt inverter has a 105 Amp DC PFC charger.

They work VERY well with generators.  They have to.  Magnum started out

in the OEM mobile, RV and marine market.


BTW, right now, Magnum Energy is mainly my day job while I finish up a

multi-unit router box/remote/controller thingie.


Magnum is kinda like working back at Trace Engineering again too.  Lots

of people from there at Magnum.  Engineers, Support people and management.


www.magnumenergy.com


boB

« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 01:27:28 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2006, 01:58:52 AM »
As generators go yours is pretty good on no load and even on load with normal loads it is still better than most. The wriggles are due to slot ripple and would not affect any load.


Driving any non linear load from a small alternator will always mess up the wave form. Single phase makes it far worse with a battery charger.


Your alternator has impedance, when you take current the volts drop, this is inevitable. With a linear load the waveform is not much affected as the volt drop is proportional to the current. The waveform just gets smaller.


With these type of loads the alternator's regulating system corrects the drop in voltage so when you switch on the load you would see a dip for several ac cycles and then the machine volts would recover. When you remove the load it will overshoot a few cycles at higher voltage and again recover.


A battery charger looks more like no load during the centre of the waveform and a large load at the peak, so the peak of the waveform is reduced in relation to the rest.Complicated regulated battery chargers will have somewhat different effects from a simple diode /transformer charger but the problem is similar.


The final waveform is complicated by how the alternator regulating scheme corrects for the drop in voltage. No scheme can correct until the drop takes place, so there must be a step drop in the voltage wave when conduction occurs.


I can't offer you much help in solving the problem, I personally would use a charger separate from the power alternator, driven by its own or the same engine. That doesn't help your problem.


If you can sort out the voltage calibration on the scope, I would look at the peak ac voltage to make sure it is not exceeding the sine wave nominal ( 1.4 x 120 for you probably). If it is peaks that are going high you may be able to limit them with Mov clippers, but they will only manage short fast peaks which you will only see on the scope as very fast low brightness edges. Your waveform is not that bad and it may just be spikes that is causing the trouble.


There is probably little you can do to have much effect on the main alternator waveform. If you are careful a capacitor across the ac line may provide enough initial energy store to carry the current spike for long enough for the alternators regulating system to pick up its field. Be careful, these alternators are not designed to accept leading power factor so make very sure that you don't add enough capacitance to over ride the AVR and raise the no load volts more than a few volts above nominal. Some alternators will go way over volts if you add too much capacitance. You may be able to use more capacitance if you keep a small load permanently on.


Unfortunately many modern devices are designed to run on grid waveform and are not very tolerant. It is highly probable that they would not have been tried on any other waveform. Try to not use the technical things while battery charging.


Unfortunately you are worse off with a highly sophisticated battery charger than with a transformer, rectifier and a large dc inductor, which would hold conduction over most of the ac cycle.


Try the careful addition of capacitors and see what improvement if any it makes.

Flux

« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 01:58:52 AM by (unknown) »

wpowokal

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2006, 02:56:39 AM »
Wow, I detect no change in voltage amplitude on all 4 traces. The trace for the space heater is actually an improvement on no load because it is basically a resistive load.


The two for the charger show distinct kicks around the zero volts for the 12 A charge rate and above and below for leading and trailing edge respectivley on the 16A. I would interperate this to the switching of a smart charger. The kinks near tye positive and negative peaks are caused by a number of factors most of which have been mentioned.


I am not familuar with your generator or charger but many simple generators do not have AVR's, if it ain't broke dont fix it. I took your post as being for information only and therefore assumed all was working well.


allan down under

« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 02:56:39 AM by (unknown) »
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FishbonzWV

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2006, 05:04:02 PM »
Volvo,

I don't know if it's the generator or not. I built a wat-gas charger and put my 'scope on it to see what the wave form looked like. It's just like your pics! I had it running through a Sola power conditioner as the isolation xformer so it was 'clean' grid power. My scope showed the same double spike on each side of the sine wave. I thought it was from the caps in the circuit but I had 4 caps and only two spikes????  Another thing I was expecting was the wave to be pulsing a square half wave at the 12v level but it was a full sine wave at the zero volt line on the scope.

Maybe it'not the gen but the batteries influence ???????

Bones
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 05:04:02 PM by (unknown) »
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Volvo farmer

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2006, 05:15:44 PM »
Thank you so much. I actually understand most all of that if I read it slowly enough. I'm going to try capacitors first, adding them slowly and looking at the waveform and peak AC volts under no load, light load and heavy loads. Outback support also suggested capacitors. What a shame such a beautiful inverter does not have a PF corrected charger.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 05:15:44 PM by (unknown) »
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TAH

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Re: Want to see an ugly sine wave?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2006, 07:02:24 PM »
Some pictures I just took for comparison. I measured the amperage in the battery cable the voltage was at 27 at the time.


30 AMPs




180 AMPs




330 AMPs (different camera mode same lighting)



« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 07:02:24 PM by (unknown) »