Author Topic: 3 PH bridge rectifier  (Read 2813 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sparky01

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
3 PH bridge rectifier
« on: April 04, 2007, 07:11:02 PM »
I am looking for the best full wave rectifier set up for 12VDC, that has the least voltage drop and heat loss. I have heard quite a bit about schottky diodes. Are these available in a 3 PH package or am I better off making a home brew stud diode unit (yes made with 3 anode and 3 cathode units). The turbine this will be rectifying is a 10' danB style that I have furl fairl early. It rarely spikes to 70A and usually stays in the 50A range. I will end up with 2 or 3 of these units (so will need that many rectifiers) as not to put all my eggs in one basket, unless someone has a better alternative. Let me know if any other info is needed.

Thanks to everyone for the input getting me off the grid. I have not had to pay a power bill for over 2 years :)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 07:11:02 PM by (unknown) »

nanotech

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 01:51:52 PM »
I can't help you with the original problem, but if you're having issues with getting a hold of a particular diode, I live within local calling distance of Digikey and have bought and shipped for other members on here.


I offer my services to you as well, if needed.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 01:51:52 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 02:04:07 PM »
Schottkys are the best unless you wish to try active rectifiers using mosfets.


Unfortunately the schottyk technology is aimed at the switchmode power supply market and the reasonably priced devices are in those dreadful TO220 plastic packages.


I believe there are single phase bridges but extremely costly, can't say about 3 phase but unlikely. Stud mounted devices are very rare so that leaves the incredibly expensive half packs and similar things and I do mean expensive.


If you want to use schottkys then the best compromise is probably  TO247 packages which at least have tags slightly better than fuse wire.


You need to look very closely at the data sheets, the rating is often quoted for switching waveforms. I would use ratings for current about 3 times the dc mean current quoted. Voltage will not normally be a big issue as long as your battery never becomes disconnected but few will stand the voltage of an open circuit machine.


If you can work within their limitations then they are fine. If you put up with all the limitations of 12v I would live with standard diodes, it is worrying to see all the heat in a diode bridge but you will not notice the difference under wind conditions with any method you have of measuring wind speed and in fact 12v machines have less stall troubles with extra line loss and a bit of diode drop. If you go mppt then you could reclaim those losses and it would make more sense.


Flux

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 02:04:07 PM by (unknown) »

Sparky01

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 02:05:08 PM »
Hey thanks for the reply, but I have a buddy that works at Newark I just need to know what type with the best eff. to get as there are so many types and configuations.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 02:05:08 PM by (unknown) »

Sparky01

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 02:16:56 PM »
Thanks, I will get a hold of a buddy of mine and see how much he can get them for. Yes if they are too expensive or if you think that I should have some line resistance then I will use a standerd rectifier. As my system is now I beleve that my resistance is low, sending 3 2/0 cables down the tower that normally see 50A.


Also unrelated: When my turbine furls the current drops to about 5A and stays there for 10 - 20 seconds befor picking back up. I thought that I should still be getting close to full output even when in furled position ?

Thanks for the input

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 02:16:56 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 02:37:37 PM »
I'm not sure how 100% correct this is.


Higher voltage and higher amperage diodes tent to use less at lower currents, IMHO.


Parlleling diodes is not good.  Maybe add a 0.01 or 0.1 ohm resistor in series with each diode to balance them a bit?


TO-220 (TO-263?) 35~40A Schottky diodes are about.  I have some for no reason, so they were certainly under $1 each.

Seems like some of these, with a proper balast resistor for each, could work fine.  Sounds like $30 or less.


G-

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 02:37:37 PM by (unknown) »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 03:01:17 PM »
Newark only has 2 listed for 20A or more (meaning anything over 8A, and both listed at 20A).

One is $1.88, 1V, 20A, 200V, TO-220AB. (88H4685)

The other is $2.40, 20A, 200V, D2-PAK.  (26K3673)


I consider D2-PAK not user friendly, so that leaves one "Newark" option for you, your friend and Me  Or is it 'I'?


I would keep looking, unless they were free.

G-

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 03:01:17 PM by (unknown) »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

asheets

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 03:24:14 PM »
You're looking for something like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridge-Rectifier-800V-150A-NEW-3-phase-diode-module_W0QQitemZ270106877525QQcateg
oryZ7287QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Tell you the truth, I've always had better luck "rolling my own" with a trio of something like these: http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridge-Rectifier-50-amp-1000V-Single-Phase-GBPC5010-4_W0QQitemZ170096851568QQcat
egoryZ73142QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Give West Florida Components a call (http://stores.ebay.com/West-Florida-Components) with exactly what you want -- they've always treated me pretty well...

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 03:24:14 PM by (unknown) »

jimjjnn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 05:56:34 PM »
Go to your local auto parts store and get the biggest amp diode assemblies they have.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 05:56:34 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 06:47:00 PM »
Caution re: automotive alternator diodes:  In an automotive application they tend to blow if the battery comes unhooked from the alternator while the engine is running.  They have somewhat low Peak Inverse Voltage rating and without the battery to hold the voltage down (or with a spike when the load is suddenly removed from an alternator with current already flowing) it can be exceeded and blow one or more of the diodes.  (While a magneto genny doesn't have the problem of a regulator turning up the excitation, it DOES have a similar problem with RPM variations from wind gusts, so I'd expect similar behavior.)


You'll probably be fine using automotive diode assemblies with a 12 volt application if you keep the battery hooked up.  But I'd be careful avoid leaving the diodes hooked to the (unshorted) mill and not to the battery while setting up or performing maintenance.  And I wouldn't use a diode assembly from a 12V alternator for a genny for a higher voltage application or one that was hooked through a peak-power-point controller that might let the genny voltage go 'way high.


Diodes tend to fail shorted so you'll want a "fusible link" high-current fuse between the diodes (automotive or not) and the battery - especially if you're using an automotive diode assembly.  Figure that if it ever blows you'll need to replace some or all of the diodes.  (Either they were already shorted or they fried after the link blew.)


The fusible link is there both to prevent fire and to save the genny:  You may have a shorted diode to + on one phase and to - on another, putting hundreds of battery amps through your genny's coils.  Replacing diodes is a lot easier than replacing a stator and maybe the rotors.   (With even one diode shorted you may be pulling enough current from the genny to load the rotor enough that furling works and/or the mill stalls before it fries or throws blades, and a runaway may blow more diodes and help brake the mill further.)


(The fusible link normally shouldn't blow unless you've already got a battery-sets-house-on-fire-unless-stopped-NOW failure in progress.)

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 06:47:00 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 08:30:06 PM »
Hello Sparky01,


Benefits of Schottky diodes are GROSSLY over stated for your application.

Spend your hard earned money on something else.


Why do you say?


Let's do the math:

At cut in (6 MPH) the output of the generator is just above battery voltage.

Low voltage Schottky diodes have a play here, but the benefit is a few RPM?

At 12 MPH the generators voltage is 2 times battery, dropping 1 or 0.5 v across the diode what does it matter? The higher voltage drop may get the diodes warmer, so use a heat sink! If searching for perfection, the star to delta will reward you with much much more. (this has it's own problems, please check)


When furling the generator output can be another 2x more or 48 volts, this is RMS voltage, peak is 70 volts or more. I have found to have a long lasting Diode system, the reverse voltage must be rated twice the expected reverse voltage or 200v MIN is in order here.


What happens to a diode if the reverse voltage is exceeded?

Have you hear of a zener? The over voltaged diode acts the same, the current will spike, then Power spikes thus destroying it, externaly the diode my not even get warm.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 08:30:06 PM by (unknown) »

s4w2099

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 07:57:48 AM »
I dont know about that dude. I might be doing the math incorrectly but if you loose 1.7 volts in the rectifier and the output of your mill is 50A into the battery you are actually loosing 85Watts. And that is why in a 12V system the rectifier is very important.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 07:57:48 AM by (unknown) »

Sparky01

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 11:08:13 AM »
So when I have a voltage drop across my rectifiers am I lossing 85W or does it just raise my cut in RPM or both. The way I understand it any resistance will have a voltage drop and will in turn heat up.  If this is correct then the lower voltage drop  schottky diode would even be able to use a smaller heat sink.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 11:08:13 AM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 01:40:18 PM »
Hello Sparky01, s4w2099.


I almost hoped you would not ask this question, not a simple answer.

My example below is worked out with shorted diodes, with Schottky the benefits is less.


For a given wind speed the blades produce a given max Power.

The blades will supply this power at various RPM's with the efficiency changing based on the blade design. The lower RPM occur with a low impedance load on the generator, the blades go into stall, the current goes up, with RPM going down. Stall = Lower RPMs than based on wind speed.

Think of it as a constant power which changes with wind speed. (works for me:-)


What does this have to do with this question? Everything or I would not have spent couple hours writing this up.


Assumptions: 10' system at 36% eff. Vb = voltage of battery. Vd is diode voltage. Ra is generators + line resistance. Pb is power into battery.

Vb = 13v, Vd = 2.4V (two diode drops as in a bridge) and Ra = 1 ohm.

At low currents the Vd drops well be less, fixed to ease simulation.

Cut in is 5mph, available wind power is 18watts, want 1 amp charge current. Setting this up to establish the voltage needed at cut in is 16.4v = 13v + 2.4v + Vra (1 * 1).

Now you know what determines cut in speed.


For a PMA alternator we have an open circuit voltage Voc, based on RPM.

Voc is calculated here based on wind speed as a ratio to cut in RPM.


For a given wind speed there is a limited power output, if loaded greater then the available power out the RPM will drop lowering the forcing voltage to match the load to available power output. The power out will remain based on the wind speed not the RPM, the blades are being somewhat stalled, so the output power will be based on the profile of the blade. Here we will assume is within range of the blade and is the same at different RPM, when in reality it will be less.


Example just pass cut in speed:

6mph we have 31 watts, 19.68Voc, 1.58a

So, V = 13 + 2.4 + 1*1.58 = 16.98v or 2.7v mis-match causing Voc to exceed power limit.

RPM will lower until 17.2v is reached and I = 1.8 a for 31 watts.

Now lets short out the diodes. Vd = 0. For 5.1v mis-match. New I will be 2.05amps. 0.25a different.

Had to use a quadratic solver to get the numbers above.

Equation is for power: I^2 + 15.4I -31 = 0 for the first, and I^2 + 13I - 31 = 0 for second.

R*I^2 + VI -31 = 0, here R = 1 so looks like it's gone, when it's still here.


Example: 15mph, 485 watts, 49.2Voc, 9.87a

With diodes: 15.6amps, 31.0 volts & Pb = 202watts. (solution)

Short diodes, I = 16.46amps, 29.46 volts, 213 Pb.


3.25watts extra for your trouble for the first, 11 watts extra for the second.


When doing the math, remember the Power is Maxed for the different wind speeds, so the blades RPM will be lowered to limit the power to stay within the power available, the efficiency changes based on the blades. Above 12mph, more power is wasted as heat in the generator than is deposited into the battery.


You will see a few watts improvement, that's it. For the cost many other things can be done, like larger blades, star-delta switching (60-70% improvement), taller tower, etc.


A Few have reported adding in series resistors. The math shows the power in the battery will drop a few percent, but they recover the other power lost as heat in the generator into a resister bank for heating. Thus making it worth while. A controller is required, no resistance at cut in.


The IR math for the diodes does not tell the true story. It's just the heat of the diode and not worth the cost to make a cheap heat sink smaller. (For me:-)

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 01:40:18 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2007, 01:41:02 PM »
Please see my reply below.

Thanks,

Scott.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 01:41:02 PM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2007, 02:04:44 PM »
Scott,

Well, here we are again, in disagreement.

I don't understand why you are quoting open-circuit voltages from the machine. When connected to the battery, the voltage will be clamped to the battery voltage plus two diode drops (for a bridge). At higher currents, this voltage drop can be 2.0-2.8 volts which can be upwards of 20% of the battery voltage in a 12V system. I wouldn't call that trivial.


The main issue, which you seem to toss off, is the power loss. At 50A and 2.8V, the loss is 140W. This is for a battery input of 650W and requires 790W from the machine for a rectifier efficiency of only 82%. This stinks. We have enough other losses to contend with in a system to put up with this one when there is something that can be done about it.


As for the PIV issues, it's not a problem as long as the ouput is connected to the battery or a suitable dump load which it should be in any case.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 02:04:44 PM by (unknown) »

s4w2099

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2007, 02:25:24 PM »
it raises your cut in because you need above battery voltage to be able to start charging and the more voltage you subtract in the rectifiers the more you will need to produce to overcome the loss.



You will start wasting power AFTER you reach cutin in your diodes because if there is no current flowing you cant loose any power in the diodes. the more current you have passing the diodes and the greater the drop the more power you will be wasting.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 02:25:24 PM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2007, 02:32:47 PM »
Scott,

I thought we had sorted this out in


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/11/18/81528/434


I guess not.


I won't go through it all again as to why I think your analysis is wrong.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 02:32:47 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
Re: 3 PH bridge rectifier
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2007, 02:16:09 PM »
Well SamoaPower, I see from your many posts you're a very intelligent / knowledgeable person in this field and I respect it. Unfortunately I do not assume everything you say is right. (me neither so don't get upset with me. I have been wrong once or twice:-) I have learned from your posts and hope to continue to, as a mater of fact I find you motivate me to know the truth.


Simple logic would suggest if the VI for one diode vs another is better than, the lower value should be the way to go. For a PMA wind generator that is simply not the case. Unless netting a few ten's of watts is worth the effort. I have not bought a Schottky diode in a few years, last time the difference was about 3x, if the cost is a couple dollars then it might very well be worth it.


The issue is based on:

The battery is a fixed voltage load, the output of the generator is fixed power. (Based on wind speed) Can we agree on this?

There is interplay between these two that is not obvious.

My explanation is based on this interplay and why.

I will take this to another post, I want others to read and prove me right or wrong.

By the way thanks.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 02:16:09 PM by (unknown) »