Dump Controllers vs Charge controllers

[SamoaPower]

There has been a fair number of dump controller designs emerging on the board in the past couple of years and a lot of discussion. I think it's time (or past time) we examine what these really do and don't do. My intention is not to offer a critique of individual designs but to discuss the general concepts.

The need:

To prevent runaway overspeed and self-destruction during higher winds, our wind turbines (WT) require some means to limit their rotational speed to safe values. Some possible methods are variable pitch rotors, yaw or tilt control (furling) and electrical load control.

The issue of limiting maximum power output to prevent electrical self-destruction (as opposed to mechanical) is, of course, a related problem but has somewhat different considerations.

Since it appears that the majority of WT systems are used for battery charging, finding a way to combine the speed-limiting function along with battery charge control would seem a logical approach. Hence the dump controller.

What a dump controller WILL do:

The typical dump (diversion) controller design is basically a voltage sensitive switch to divert a portion, or all, of the incomming source current to a separate load. This provides some continous load to the WT to reduce overspeed potential.

Since the voltage switching point is determined by the battery terminal voltage, it's thought that this will also provide some form of battery charge control. The effect is to limit the maximum charging voltage to the battery,

What a dump controller WILL NOT do:

Limiting the maximum charging voltage to a battery is the crudest form of charge control and unfortunately, will not provide anything close to optimum battery lifetime.

To prevent long-term overcharge, which results in excessive water use and higher battery temperatures, the switching point would need to be set to an appropriate float voltage for the battery type used. This is typically quite low (13.1-13.8V) for charging purposes and would result in quite inefficient use of the available energy and would require a much longer charge time. Float voltage settings are primarily used to compensate for battery self-discharge and finish charging to get that last few percent of capacity, NOT for primary charging.

I would have to question if charging at float voltage would result in complete recharge in most systems. It depends on the load profile, battery capacity and source current capability as to whether the discharge/recharge cycle would allow complete recharge. Chronic undercharge is the real battery killer.

So, although I understand the attraction of an inexpensive, simple device to purportedly handle the two needs of control, I think it only does one adequately.

I suggest that if you value your investment in batteries, that in addition to a dump controller, you also invest in a proper charge controller. Or, simply spring for a C40 or something similar which does it all nicely.

[TomW]

Samoa;



 Or, simply spring for a C40 or something similar which does it all nicely.



As far as I know, a C series controller can do charge, load or diversion control but only one function at a time?

I tend to agree with most of what you are getting at. I use human control but the mill and solar seldom get ahead of loads so it usually involves  feeding grid into the outback to keep the batteries in a safe range. Despite my ~950 AH 24 volt gas tank I don't make enough to keep ahead of loads for long. Adding a couple turbines this fall I hope.

Cheers.

TomW

Cheers.

TomW

[SamoaPower]

Tom,

Not quite true about the C40 (I have two). Load control is a separate mode and will do only that when selected. Series charge control and diversion modes are only determined by how it's wired. The same charge algorithm is used in both modes and in effect, have both simultaneously when using diversion.

Yup, have the same issues here at times, particularly on cloudy days, so the grid charger still gets a little use.

Thanks for the comments.

[snowcrow]

Tom, I second that motion! I own a Xantrex C-35 and I think it's the best investment I've made yet!! I'll be buying a C-40 soon to use in diversion mode for the 12' gen I'm building, as suggested by Hugh Piggott. They also have an auto-equalization (every 30 days), or manual, if so desired. Here is the C-Series Operation Guide:

http://www.affordable-solar.com/admin/product_doc/Doc_C%20Series%20User%20Manual_20060515132018.pdf

Blessings, Snow Crow

[ghurd]

Possibly it is my own vanity?

Somehow I feel this is directed at me. Personally.

Possibly?  Somehow?  I am a butt-head for offering a circuit that "is expected to fill the obvious gap between NO controller and a complicated or expensive controller".

Possibly?  Somehow?  I am a butt-head for offering a circuit that cost LESS than it's parts cost?  Certainly less than a decent factory made PCB costs?  Probably less than SHIPPING the parts cost?

Possibly?  Somehow?  I am a butt-head for offering a circuit that "will not provide anything close to optimum battery lifetime".

Possibly?  Somehow?  I am a butt-head for offering a circuit that will "prevent long-term overcharge, which results in excessive water use and higher battery temperatures"?

Possibly?  Somehow?  The part about "the switching point would need to be set to an

appropriate float voltage for the battery type used" being user adjustable with the

blue thingy with the screw.  

Some people will call it a pot, or maybe a rheostat, or even a `variable resistor'.  

I did not intend to confuse anyone, so I apologize. I wrote the `Diary' for people new to this stuff.

Possibly?  Somehow?  The part about "I would have to question if charging at float voltage would result in complete recharge in most systems".  Me too.

Possibly?  Somehow?  The part about  "It depends on the load profile, battery capacity and source current capability as to whether the discharge/recharge cycle would allow complete recharge" would depend on the hysteresis?

Possibly?  Somehow?  The part about "would require a much longer charge time" means between 90% and 95% of the full charge?  Maybe it comes from "to get that last few percent of capacity"?

Possibly?  Somehow?  "Everyone has their own ideas of what is best"?  Really? Srtunning revollation.  Somehow that turns into all the other BS?

Possibly?  Somehow?  A lot of people have a small windmill.  

They may have $0 in the whole system?

They may want to not ruin the battery due to chronic undercharge? (Isn't that what you always say?)

Possibly?  Somehow?  A lot of people may not be worried about the last 1% of battery capacity?

Possibly?  Somehow?  A lot of people may only be worried about boiling their batteries dry?

Possibly?  Somehow?  

So somehow you "understand the attraction of an inexpensive, simple device to purportedly handle the two needs of control, I think it only does one adequately" though you missed the whole point...

""The circuit design was intended for the smaller systems.  

It is expected to fill the obvious gap between NO controller and a complicated or expensive controller.

The major design parameters were proper function, versatility, simplicity, ease in understanding, trouble shooting, and obtaining parts. And low cost.""

I never said it was perfect.

I said "The circuit design was intended for the smaller systems.  

It is expected to fill the obvious gap between NO controller and a complicated or expensive controller."

I told more than one person something else would be better for their system.  

Please excuse the grammar and spelling. Etc.   I am tired.

I spent my day installing a compete and working, and guaranteed to work, RE powered refrigerator.  Again.  Working with real RE systems, day after day, gets a bit boring.

[bob g]

ghurd:

i am late to the party as usual

some years ago i pushed for a controller on the old board, but got no traction

and have been away far more than present for quite some time as well, so i don't know all the underpinnings of ongoing dialog so forgive me my ignorance.

i looked over your controller and i found it to be an elegant solution to a problem where there is a void,, wow what a concept,, find and need and fill it!

maybe it ain't perfect? but what is?

i like it!

perhaps it is version 1? with improved and expanded versions to come?

just remember my old friend,,

"no good deed goes unpunished"

if only the manufactures of controllers were held to account for some of their

claims, ,,,, ya right!

keep up the good work.

R Gayle

[TomW]

ghurd;

Gee, I did not see it that way at all. I am a bit thick at times.

I figure an individual's  controller needs ranges from "nothing" to "a rack full of expensive control equipment" No one item will do it all.  I shoulda got in on testing yours but my system is kind of "unique" and likely another like it does not exist.

Anyway, I think you misinterpreted it. The fact that you openly published it for feedback led me to think that you had thick hide for the kind of comments a guy can get online.

As usual, I think open discussion is always good but it is easy to get misunderstood.

Cheers.

TomW

[DamonHD]

Your controller design was enough for me to understand what I needed to do, simple though it was (and less clever than yours), so thanks for doing it and making it available.

Rgds

Damon

[claude]

I have to agree with Ghurd here.

Imagine a windmill made up of an old copier stepper motor, a PVC pipe blade that's charging an old car battery back in grandma's shed. 0$ budget there, the whole thing is made of scrap items. A dump controller & a headlight bulb as the dump load would be the best (and only) option.

Never mind the few percents of battery capacity not being charged.

Never mind the battery's optimum lifetime, it was already too old.

But it works. And provides enough light considering the 0$ investment.

Maybe RE community should be divided in two: "high society folks" and the rest:

High society refers here not to their financial status or education level but to their approach on a RE system. Those people will never connect two wires without proper connectors. They will care for their battery bank very much - they will heat them or cool them, check them every hour or so. They will eventually buy the Xantrex.

The rest - the "masses" will go on with the twisted wire method. Their batteries are rarely new ones, their windmills are all made of scrap and held together with lots of duct tape. They will not buy the Xantrex. They don't really need to. It would be like dressing the donkey in velvet clothes.

The whole idea is that "the masses" will always love a simple and cheap device that can handle the job. "Set it and forget it" is what makes them happy. They do know it's limited in what it can do, but maybe they won't ask for more - considering the purchase price and the usually pretty basic needs.

So G, the masses are grateful to you.

Claude

[sdscott]

ghurd:  I also agree; your brain-child controller fits the budget and abilities for alot of us.  It also inspirers other peoples trains of thought, leading to advancements in this game of 'renewable energy'.  For some of us, we want to justify total-cost-of-ownership vs. feasability of such an adventure to move away from grid dependancy.  Keeping over-all cost to a minimum.

SamoaPower:  I understand where you are coming from, and your statments are mostly valid, however, remember that some here are trying to subsidize there power usage with RE because they simply cannot continue to meet the rizing cost of living off the grid.  This alone means a limited budget.

Keep up the good work, and thank you for your contributions.

[disaray1]

  Well said Claude. We all have to remember that were not all playing the same game here. Some are just experimenting, some are having fun tinkering, and others take this stuff, and themselves, very seriously.

  In racing (and most everything else), there are always classes. It busts the crowd into groups, so the Ferrari/Porsche/Vette guys that get new engines and a complete chassis rebuild every race are'nt competeing against the weekend warrior Datsun B210 that operates on near zero budget, same engine for the last two years. The Datsun dude couldn't afford even one wheel for the Ferrari, much less the whole car. But Datsun dude still has a great time.

 If youv'e got the cash, buy a xantrex or outback. If you don't, but you still want to play, get a G-controller. And when the Ferrari is broken down on the side of the track, with a big cloud of Italian smoke around it.... smile and wave as you go by....in your B210.

 Good job G. Keep it up.

 David

[Nando]

Samoa:

I have to take exception here.

A dump controller CAN and it is ABLE regulate the battery charge even with multiple charging profile.

There are at least two type so dump controllers, the most common is the BANG-BANG circuit, the simplest, where the load is full OFF-Full ON.

This type does not give a good charging battery profile and does not guaranteed good battery life.

The PROPORTIONAL DUMP CONTROLLER does guarantee a good battery charging profile and at the same time protects the wind mill and the generator.

The proportional dump controller, needs to operate at least 20 to 100 times faster than the wind mill's generator rate of power generation, to allow the proper profile charging control for good battery life.

Ghurd's simple design is geared as a bang-bang controller and it has is place in many wind mill systems.

The Proportional Dump controller does require additional circuitry to properly load the generator into limiting the power voltage level to below battery voltage levels and in addition it may need a circuit to define the battery charging profile from Float, Bulk and even equalizing voltages.

A Proportional Dump Controller needs to be close to the battery bank to minimize the errors in the charging profiles.

LASTLY, one needs to really understand the requirements of the battery charging profile, and at the same time, understand the behavior of the wind mill and its power generation and how to limit this power in an organized and efficient manner to accomplish the proper steps in the process of battery charging and to accomplish the battery charging profiles needed to extend the battery life to its maximum.

The main point here is that MOST of these BANG-BANG experimenters in this type of groups DO NOT want or desire to implement the necessary steps to accomplish a good battery charging controller if the controller COST SOME MONEY -- they want it -- free and well designed.

Nando

[TomW]

disaray;

Some are just experimenting, some are having fun tinkering, and others take this stuff, and themselves, very seriously.

Sorry, but you forgot "some are just talkers" oh, and "Some are just jerks" [likely fall into that serious category] too. Just general comment. Not pointing out anyone in particular.

I just couldn't resist.

It takes all kinds to make a village.

Cheers.

TomW

[DamonHD]

Can I be village idiot?  Please, puh-lease?  B^>

[Bruce S]

SomaPower;

   I think I understand what you're probably trying to say.

DO correct me if I'm wrong. SO here goes.

What you're possibly trying to say is that if a person has a good expensive system then make the jump to an industry built controller that will ensure long life to those batteries. And make sure that the system can be used to keep the windmill from being destroyed by high winds and all the while keeping the batteries from smoking.

I hope I got that right;-)

However , if it is directed towards the picaxe and Ghurd type of controllers, then it might be directed in the wrong direction or is misleading.

The way I see G- and others building these, is in the true fashion of getting in a learning the "everything" part of their homebuilt systems.

The amount of information that people learn from doing it themselves is enormous. Right or wrong.

And of course with full disclosure , I must say that I have for the past year had the greatest pleasure of assisting G- with the design and testing of his unit. AND I have 8 of these currently working in various fashions.

Not all of those units are set to dump the charges ( but when used as a diversion dump) are set at 14.4Vdc. It never would've entered my mind to set them at anything other than a full charge. The systems I help with, are surely way different than most.  I help build system with cast-off stuff Like Sub-C NiCd batteries, hundreds of them and they are all carefully set to maintain the voltage max of the batteries not a sub-charge.

On a side note: those wondering about the use of G-'s dump controller for 24V , YES it does work, however, make sure to do two things that will keep you from burning through 'FETs . 1.) cut the run as explained . 2.) start with a hysteresis setting of .14ish. And then let it fly ":-)"

Note: This test was setup using 3 HF PV's connected directly to the dump controller battery connections , a little guessing for which resistor(s) the 51k was not to be found so I used a couple to get around 60k, to use for HY and 10 1.5Ah Bruce packs in parallel at the 19.2Vdc pins.

No cool flickering pics, but the cute little yellow LED was doing it's job like it was designed to .

SomaPower: You are correct about using items correctly, though and dump controller shouldn't  be used to control the speed of the WT, that should be part of the design of the WT not the down stream electronics that take care of the batteries.

Could you possibly expound on your thought here about what you meant ?

Cheers ALL;

Bruce S

[TomW]

Damon;

Thou art granted village idiot status.

Now, on with the show.

Cheers.

TomW

[Bruce S]

DamonHD;

  Bummer beat me to it :-D

This "work: thing keeps getting in the way of responding...

Congrats on the knight-hood:->

Bruce S

[nothing to lose]

I certainly take Ghurds side also with his controller, if there are sides.

Almost all of my batteries are basically $2-$5 scrap I dragged home from a recycler, YES I am still using 2 of those $5 L16P trojans from a couple years ago even.

Why would I ever want to pay tons of money for a fancy controller for those?

 I do want to NOT over charge them to like 16-18V or such though as that would not be good for a 12V system right!

If my $500 inverter will handle around 15V and I dump power at say 14V then I am protecting more that just the scrap batteries, I am protecting my 5K inverter also.

I have a couple things I will want to run only when I have good winds. I think Ghurds controller will be perfect for this. Connect 1 small battery, set the dump voltage to where I want the battery to just sit at, when I get wind and power I will exceed the dump voltage setting and the dumpload should turn on and that's what I will want. If for some reason I decide I need that battery to run a load it will be sitting there full charged ready to be used.

At the low low price Ghurd is asking, I can get 2 controllers or more. I never leave anything alone and always moving and swapping stuff. So it's easy enough to set one controller for my normal charge volts I want most the time, set a second to a higher volts for equalizing charge, whenever I feel like it just swap the controllers for a short while.

Not everyone puts all their batteries in one bank either. I don't!

 So that would mean buy a controller for each bank I guess. Some of us do want to fly more than 1 genny also. So for 3 gennies and 3 banks I would need 3 controllers, for scrap batteries costing me maybe $20 per bank mostly less. Nope not gonna buy 3 fancy high cost controllers for those.

Something I may try, since the smaller banks would charge full faster than a large bank if the gennies and such are equal is run the dump from 2 smaller banks to the larger bank, then dump the larger bank as needed. If it works this would stop me from dumping power at 2 small banks while the large bank still needs charging. Don't need the fancy stuff for that either.

Ghurds controller is probably about perfect for many things where a fancy high cost controller would never even be considered.

 Being low cost there are some odd uses a few may be good for also. I may have a load I want to run as a dump and also on a switch when I want it even when not dumping. I may run it on a relay. It would be good to set a controller to about 13.5V for the relay, incase the relay burns up have a second load on a second controller set to dump at say 13.8V or 14V for a backup. I won't need to worry about that for awhile, but I been doing allot with 12V fans, lights, and such recently. Gonna try some 12V Ni-chrome wire heaters soon I think when I have time.

"A lot of people may only be worried about boiling their batteries dry"

 I think I fall into that group somewhat.

"It is expected to fill the obvious gap between NO controller and a complicated or expensive controller."

 I generally fall into the NO controller group.

I'm burried in trees in full bloom right now still so only flying 1 small genny that's not doing anything at 17' but soon if I am home more gennies will go back up at about 25' and the trees will be dying out so I will get wind again. If home durring the winter I will be thinning out these darned thick trees this year. I used to get wind better than this, the trees have grown allot!

[Bruce S]

NTL!!

Great to see you back on the board.

Since this post has gone all over the place :-)

Here's some fun stuff to try.

Grab a few of those Bruce packs and wire the controller for 24V set the dump to 22V and see how that works out. Just don't do like I did on the 1st try and forget to cut the run!!

IN 12V mode it'll work just as good if you're using them as 14.4V packs ( stole this idea from Norm , shhhh don't tell 'em :-D )

If you still have one of those steppers, try summing the outputs together as DC, and use a LM3xx as an adjustable voltage, that output set for 14.4 the use that as the input for the controller :-) did this the other day works real good with a poratable drill as the "wind". I'm trying to get this to work for the trike as a small windy, for the 600 mile ride across MO...

Cheers

Bruce S

[claude]

Hello Tom!

Nice to see you still got it :-))

Let it out, ease your mind!

Claude

[nothing to lose]

I don't have a working genny right now to do anything with, Flying a motor conversion but it just does not get any wind where it's at. I saw it turn about about 10RPM for a few seconds the other day

 So I am messing more with the solar for now.

I don't have Ghurds kits yet, just saw yesterday about them while reading the posts, didn't know he had them done. I been out of touch a bit I guess. I'll get some soon.

 I know from e-mails he had lots of problems, vendors shipping wrong parts instead of what he ordered, PCB board maker problems, etc.. and been working on getting these made for a long time!

 They may be designed to be easy for us, but it certainly was not easy for him to get all the parts together and made up like that board!

I'm glad to see things worked out now.

I'm still here, not often though, still problems lingering around. Random lockups, system don't boot most the time till 3rd/4th try, crashes, etc.. and it's all so random with no pattern at all. I've eliminated most anything it could be, but it still does it LOL

 Think I found a keyboard problem this morning, changed keyboards. Will see if that was it, maybe a short? System was working fine (after 4th try to bootup) did some other stuff then I got to the forum and started to post a reply and system crashed!

 Booted up fine again except after I entered the password and got into windows I could not type, unplugged the keyboard and  system crashed when I plugged it back in again.

 I hope it was the keyboard! That would explain why so random also.

[Tritium]

In my "Village" "Idiot" is not a singular position but a rather crowded community to itself. LOL

Thurmond

[lohearth]

The rest - the "masses" will go on with the twisted wire method. Their batteries are rarely new ones, their windmills are all made of scrap and held together with lots of duct tape.

 You forgot the hot glue lol

[bsafe]

Ghurd where can I get a few of your controlers? SamoaPower where can I get a diagram or  kit for your low watt fan controler? Thank you, for helping a newby.

[SamoaPower]

All responders,

I am sorry to see that due to Ghurd's incorrect assumption that this post was directed specifically to him, in spite of my statement, "My intention is not to offer a critique of individual designs but to discuss the general concepts.", this post has turned into a meeting of the Ghurd Rah-Rah Fan Club. It's a shame that he discounts work done by others as being worthy of consideration.

It's also too bad that so few responded to the main issue of proper battery charging. My intention here was to point out to the newbies and those who have not yet learned enough about charging batteries, that simple bang-bang controllers will cost them significantly in the long run. I think it's penny wise and pound foolish to save $100 on a controller at the cost of multiple $100s in battery longevity. Of course, if you're only playing at this game and only have junk for equipment, than I guess it doesn't matter. And yes, disaray1, I do take RE seriously - I've too much invested not to.

Simple bang-bang controller technology goes back about 100 years and in spite of using modern components, it doesn't charge batteries any better today than it did back then. I choose to take advantage of improved understanding and technological advancement to work in the 21st century.

[elvin1949]

Same Here.

later

Elvin

[SamoaPower]

bsafe,

I'll post a schematic in the original fan diary. This post has got enough out of hand as it is. No kit - I'm not in business.

[bob g]

Samoapower:

your point about alot of folks not understanding the in's and out's of proper battery care, maintenance and charging is well founded as evidenced by the countless statements from folks all over the web regarding "edta", "pulse desulfators" and all manner of voodoo to reclaim batteries that were in many cases either murdered, neglected or used up in some manner or another.

you would be amazed at how many folks have no clue as to whether their investment in batteries are being properly cared for (charging regime) at all.

as long as the little green light is lit, they figure all is fine,,

as long as their voltmeter says 12.6 they figure they are fully charged,, etc.

i have been away from here for some time, and after coming back i feel i have learned alot about the basic human nature of the DIY crowd in general.

there are two very distict groups,,

those that are serious with a heavy investment in all manner of components and spend alot of time researching and learning proper methodology. and ...

those that are serious with very little or no investment other than their time, in all manner of components (most of which are homebuilt, recycled, or salvaged) and they also spend alot of time researching and learning methodology as well..

however the two groups have vastly different concerns, the first group is trying to protect their investment,, the other group is trying to maximize their investment.

basically one is protecting bigger dollars the other is trying to make their hard earned albeit smaller dollars stretch as far as they can.

i suppose there are those in various positions in the middle.

just as an outback mx60 or similar controller has no place in a small system, probably because it costs more than a guys total system,, ghurds controller might not be appropriate for a high dollar system.. each has its place!

we can be sure that outback, xantrex, etc will fill the need for the upper end systems,,, i think ghurds controller fills a void quite well at the other end of the spectrum,,, a void that no one else seems to want to fill i might add.

bob g

[TomW]

Well, Samoa,sometimes when you go fishing you catch fish, sometimes you get eaten by the alligators,crocodiles or skeeters. Just the nature of fishing.

You tossed out some bait and while you were trolling you scooped up a few boots. It happens.

By now, unless you are, uh, "slow" you should know that these type posts are like walking into church and yelling "my God is better than your God and here is why ...". The reaction will generally be quite vigorous and your delicate ego may be impacted.

I feel the discussion is a good one in general.

I think your way of opening it has a taste of arrogance and "I know better" about it.

You thought you would "enlighten" them but they pulled you off your pedestal and tossed you in the mud. funny thing is, you do not get why. Perfectly clear from here. Well, as we said in grade school "He started it".

Now, because You rubbed folks the wrong way, you blame the misdirection of the discussion on, and I quote:[due to Ghurd's incorrect assumption that this post was directed specifically to him].

Get over yourself.

I warned G- in the beginning that it was a good way to draw fire posting a circuit to this forum that has become the hunting grounds of so many wannabes and know it alls. Well, he dove in anyway only to get a fair bit of grief from the know it all crowd of wannabes.

It is getting to the point here where there is so much of this talking it to death by those who never even saw a RE installation that it obfuscates the reason the forum exists which, is to further doing it.

I don't know for sure about you, but I use RE every day so I have an interest in hearing from those that do. If I want to hear from those who talk, I will go on AM radio and listen to talk radio. That would further RE about as much as a lot of the talk here does.

Northing personal. Just one view.

Cheers.

TomW

[DamonHD]

As at least one respondent to your post said, he is NEVER going to buy a $100 controller ever for his here-and-now $5 throwaway battery set.  It's a cheap controller or nowt.

And I dislike being labelled as some faceless drone in someone's rah-rah club.  Please leave personal insults and sweeping generalisations at the door.  I happen to be an IN-DUH-VID-UAL who is grateful to G for sharing his design with us.  He even offered me a free kit for my birthday, but I don't know him beyond that!  I'm unlikely to use that design as-is, but it did clear some clouds from my mind as to the minimum complexity needed.

Rgds

Damon

[TomW]

Damon;

Well said.

T

[SamoaPower]

My, my, my. Now, there's a response from the good ol' TomW that we all know and love so well. If you don't have something useful to say on the topic, just attack the author. Yep, that'll be sure to attract some attention. Caught you again before your morning coffee, eh Tom? Seems like I make a habit of that.

"...only to get a fair bit of grief from the know it all crowd of wannabes."

"...talking it to death by those who never even saw a RE installation..."

"I don't know for sure about you, but I use RE every day so I have an interest in hearing from those that do."

Well, I guess it's pretty clear what catagory I belong in. You must be right Tom, since YOU say it. You're right about one thing though, you don't know about me. As a relative newcomer, I've only been drawing RE watts daily, without pause, for 36 years with a portion of that off-grid. I must be a novice since I've only been in on a dozen or so RE installations for myself and friends. I must be a wannabe since I still want to learn more and understand better so I keep experimenting. I must be slowing down some (old age, I guess) since I only have 8-9 current ongoing RE projects. (list on request)

"I think your way of opening it has a taste of arrogance and "I know better" about it."

"Get over yourself."

"Northing personal."

Now, there's a set of incongruous statements if I ever saw them!

Have a nice day, Tom.

[TomW]

Well, thanks for completely and utterly misunderstanding my point. Just remember how it started. Forget that I already said I did not think it was a direct assault on Ghurd's efforts in a previous post.

I agree you do well to misdirect this as me undertaking some vendetta against you rather than address the true points. Much easier to be the victim than bolster your fantasies on what we need  with some reality.

What can I say, I do use RE every single day. A system I put together piecemeal over the years. I don't have time to figure out who else does or does not actually use RE. Just because some rich person buys 10 grand in RE doesn't make him / her an expert in RE. I speak straight and I speak what I think. Talk is cheap for anyone, myself included.

Sorry that you asked a question that got you in the doodoo but you did ask it and you got kind of whiny about why it went the way it did. I tried to show you perhaps why that happened.

Attack me if you want, it will not change the reality that your view is very narrow on what "we" need. DIY is not the same as "buy it and have it installed" There, thats the best I can do.

Cheers.

TomW